The shrinking Royal Navy

[skipepsi]

As long as we all remember the sole purpose of the RN is to get the RM to their objective, and be there ready to take the RM back to Blighty..............

With the type 45's it might be all hands to oars.... just to get there.

[jjb1970]

As a matter of interest just how are specifications for military equipment laid down? I imagine there are senior top brass who decide what they would like and they are joined by senior civil servants who tell them what we can pay for. At some point defence contractors join in and try to sell their product, or at least get the MoD to pay for design, prototypes etc. So whose idea was the WR21 as described in #94? There have certainly been new ideas that came from servicemen and have proved effective in service. There are plenty of failures too.

The key document is the concept of operations (ConOps), that defines the functional requirements of the system and everything flows from it. The ConOps will inform system operational concepts and system requirements. Then detailed designs utilise the NATO stanags and UK defstans. And modern RN warships are built to class rules so the key requirements for assurance of items like the engines are class rules (though not for the T45). A major problem is that some in the MoD do not understand what class is.

On WR21, there is a story behind that which I hope can be told someday. I know the chap who pushed both IEP and the WR21 for T45, a very clever fellow.

[jjb1970]

Something the MoD really seem to struggle with is the fact that THEY define the ConOps, THEY define the key requirements and once they do that then the design they get is informed by those decisions. If the MoD define an inappropriate ConOps, define inappropriate operating parameters (eg. max sea water temperature...), interfaces etc then they cannot blame the suppliers for designing and building a ship to meet those requirements. However invariably it is the supplier who gets the blame, and T45 is a case in point. BAE did get a few things wrong, but the really big flaws were not down to BAE. And that is before we get to the catastrophe that can be MoD contract management......

[Zomboid]

In any large (or indeed small) procurement, getting that first stage wrong leads to the final outcome being unsatisfactory. And when the government is involved with that first stage of "what do we want this maguffin to do?", it'll most likely end up with something that no one wants and doesn't work properly.

[The Stationmaster]

As long as we all remember the sole purpose of the RN is to get the RM to their objective, and be there ready to take the RM back to Blighty..............

 

As I understand things from a technical rating on a certain vessel which is tasked with shipping booties around the high seas said RM folk are more interested in having the bogs and washbasins working properly

[jjb1970]

When I was with BAS we used to carry military personnel between the Falklands and South Georgia sometimes as a favour to the MoD. The RM were always well behaved and didn't cause problems (well maybe a little rowdiness, bit no worse than our own crew). The Royal Engineers were a different matter, we had to completely strip a couple of cabins after we carried some of them and incinerate the bedding etc as they decided it'd be a great jape to smear human excrement over everything and destroy cabin fittings. The letter that went to the MoD from NERC/BAS was a masterful example of how to word something so as to be utterly scathing and disdainful whilst obeying all the forms of inter departmental courtesy and politeness.

[jjb1970]

Meanwhile, on the planet Zog:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38138874

[Ohmisterporter]

This suggestions in this article may be of interest, and they will only cost a few bob.

 

http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/dear-theresa-may-and-michael-fallon-this-is-how-you-should-fix-the-navy-fast/

[pete_mcfarlane]

This suggestions in this article may be of interest, and they will only cost a few bob.

 

http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/dear-theresa-may-and-michael-fallon-this-is-how-you-should-fix-the-navy-fast/

So basically they want large amounts of cash to be thrown at their favourite part of the State's infrastructure, at the expense of the bits they aren't interested in (schools, hospitals, the RAF). 

[jjb1970]

So basically they want large amounts of cash to be thrown at their favourite part of the State's infrastructure, at the expense of the bits they aren't interested in (schools, hospitals, the RAF). 

 

I'd vote for that!  

 

On a more serious note, some of those wants would cost an awful lot of money and it is unclear on what basis they'd be needed (or even wanted). The idea to make the Batch 2 River Class OPVs into something akin to a corvette or cheap alternative to a frigate is worrying as that is the classic mistake with regards that type of ship. They're constabulary vessels and not intended for, or suitable for, a front line combatant role.

[pete_mcfarlane]

The other point that stuck out was the demand to start the Type 45 propulsion upgrade immediately. So no need to do any planning, or wait for components to be delivered.

 

In fact the various demands for extra bits of kit and upgrades to be fitted in the short/medium term would probably cripple the RN, as all their ships would be busy refitting for years to come.

Edited December 4, 2016 by pete_mcfarlane

[PhilH]

Well, there's always crowdfunding....

[jjb1970]

There is something in there about buying a fleet of conventional diesel electric submarines from Sweden or Germany, I'm not sure if people appreciate that modern diesel electric boats are not cheap, not to mention the associated support arrangements.

[Legend]

I think it's probably a reflection that we can't afford more nuclear ones. I'm assuming diesel subs are less expensive.

 

While the article reads a big like a wish list there are some good bits in there. I do think we need to increase the capability of our type 45s assuming we can make them go, especially a surface to surface missile to replace Harpoon. These destroyers are paper tigers .

[jjb1970]

The main thing that inhibits increased multi-role versatility of the T45 is the Sylver VLS. If they'd fitted a Mk.41 VLS then integrating a whole range of off the shelf missiles (ASROC, LRASM, Tomahawk, SM3 etc) would be simple. The Sylver is claimed to be compatible with some of these missiles, but it is the compatible in the sense that if you spend enough money then it should be possible. The T45 does have space for additional VLS cells and that space was designed to be able to take strike length Mk.41 cells.

[The Stationmaster]

Well, there's always crowdfunding....

 

I thought that was called Income Tax?

 

Overall there are some very good points but it does amount very much to a sort of 'we want eight and we won't wait' approach to life.  On the other hand they might be thinking that by asking for so much they might at least get some of it!

 

However what is not entirely clear is what they think the fleet is supposed to do - clearly there is an interest in it seemingly being able to do everything but is that what is actually wanted beyond an ability to carry out anti-submarine work with vessels accompanied by something to protect them from air attack plus a clear need for narrow seas patrol capability.  I'm still very unclear about the purpose of the large 'fleet' aircraft carriers  which will demand a large protective a/s and a/a escort capacity while providing I'm not exactly sure what beyond some sort of fixed wing aircraft capability and various fits of helicopter activity while absorbing considerable manpower (of which there is already a considerable shortage).

[pete_mcfarlane]

Overall there are some very good points but it does amount very much to a sort of 'we want eight and we won't wait' approach to life.  

The comments on the article are 'interesting' and reinforce that view.

 

There seems to be a Worldview where Russia is about to kick off a massive invasion of Europe, the Chinese are expanding their navy and so will (obviously) be wanting a war, and Argentina is about to reinvade the Falkland Islands. The Government is doing nothing about this, and so are useless/corrupt/traitors. It wouldn't surprise me if they also think the Germans are dredging canals on their North Sea Coast to facilitate an invasion of England. 

[Torper]

I'm left wondering how the mechanical problems affect the ability of the ship to launch aircraft.

 

Funny you should say that....  Perhaps not the mechanical problems you were thinking of, but since arriving off Syria the Kuznetsov has managed to lose two planes due to arrestor problems.  The first was a Mig-29 that was not able to land and ran out of fuel because the deck crew of the carrier failed to fix a broken arrestor gear, while more recently a Su-33 slid off the deck during landing and became lost at sea after an arrestor gear line snapped and failed to stop the aircraft.  Neither pilot appears to have been injured.

 

DT

[Reorte]

Snapped arrestor gear line? That conjures up visions of cables flying around all over the place, sounds very nasty.

[petethemole]

Snapped arrestor gear line? That conjures up visions of cables flying around all over the place, sounds very nasty.

 

Indeed https://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2016/07/14/horrific-cable-mishap-caused-maintanence-errors-navy/87032244/

[Barry O]

you can buy as many submarines and ships as you want , you can fill them with more guns and missiles than you ever dreamt of.... but can you get enough people to make them work???

[skipepsi]

you can buy as many submarines and ships as you want , you can fill them with more guns and missiles than you ever dreamt of.... but can you get enough people to make them work???

Not on1% a year pay rise and atrocious family accommodation no.

[Ohmisterporter]

The Save the Royal Navy blog has this article about the National shipbuilding strategy. Some interesting points, less reliance on BAES for a start, and it is good to hear of British shipyards gaining work. The four RFAs being built in South Korea held up because of wiring faults wasn't a detail that I have read before, just that they are delayed. Hope you find this interesting.

 

http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/the-national-shipbuilding-strategy-report-a-roadmap-for-a-stronger-royal-navy/

 

[Ohmisterporter]

you can buy as many submarines and ships as you want , you can fill them with more guns and missiles than you ever dreamt of.... but can you get enough people to make them work???

 

 

Most of the ex-navy men I worked with loved being at sea, their wives and families hated it, especially long deployments that can be laid at the door of those who thought that modern ships are twice as good as old ones therefore we need half the ships to do the same work. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by Ohmisterporter

[Reorte]

Most of the ex-navy men I worked with loved being at sea, their wives and families hated it, especially long deployments that can be laid at the door of those who thought that modern ships are twice as good as old ones therefore we need half the ships to do the same work. 

It wasn't great growing up without my dad being around a lot of the time, and I imagine that it must've been far harder for my mum. And we were lucky, IIRC my dad was always at home for Christmas at least. He at least seemed to like being at sea, despite being an over 6' tall submariner.