What Price Modelling East Anglia Beyond 2020

[Kelvin B]

Hello all

 

I have just been looking at Abelio East Anglia's list of new units to be delivered 2019/2020. It is clear we are losing some or most of our older units. Losses will include the 153,156,170,321,360 as well as the Class 90's and eight coach sets. These units range from one car to 4 car.

 

The new sets coming in are 12 car, 10 car on the main lines and 5, 4 and 3 car Electric/Diesel on the suburban and branch lines.

 

I think the days of small branch line model layouts with one or  two car units is over if modelling beyond 2020.

 

With the price of a 2 car unit nearly £160, what price a new unit of 3,4 or 5 cars, not to mention a 10 or 12 car. Then consider the space needed. I believe if these units are ever produced they will be in the realm only for rich Model clubs and individuals, certainly not average independent modellers.

 

I realise this is progress for East Anglia and it is greatly needed, but modelling the then modern scene could be difficult if these units are ever produced. 

 

I have targeted East Anglia in this post, but other parts of the UK will be affected sooner or later.

 

I have not mentioned freight which also seem to be getting longer. Out of interest I wonder what will happen on branches like Felixstowe - Ipswich, usually a one car unit. Would a 3 car unit make economic sense or will it be a permanent bustitution? That would certainly make the container operators very happy.

 

I guess the days of running two or three Mk3's on tyre turning trips, loco hauled on my layout will be over soon as well.

 

I know we have had the HST, Javelin and Blue Pullman to a good standard for years, and you can run the HST 'short' but with prices rising on China produced products so fast, prototypical length may not be possible for most modellers.

 

Being an old 'fuddy duddy' I will be happy to end my modelling period in East Anglia when the new units arrive, but image going to an Exhibition in 2025 and there are no up to date layouts. 

 

Note - I have written this with my OO hat on.      

 

Just a few thoughts.

 

Kelvin Barnes

 

 

 

   

[russ p]

I write this with my professional railwaymans hat on.

The railway in East anglia will be as dull as ditch water and have the charisma of a grey Toyota people carrier! Trains will still sit for hours on the GE main line when the infrastructure falls down but at least they will be new and then Mr and miss Facebook may regret moaning about mk3s with their opening doors windows as the sweltering in sealed twelve car tube!

 

From a modelling point of view it went off the modern scene about 1992 as there was less and less to model. And how do you model the little man in a 66 who is either freezing or boiling dreading his forthcoming weekend of sitting in some hell hole for 12hrs shifts on a ballast site!

Model the past life on the railway was so much simpler!

[Suzie]

If modelling the East Anglia scene in Essex being able to buy buy anything rtr is going to be nice. Having to have most of the stock kit built or scratch built has been the norm especially for branch lines.

 

Even modelling the Southminster or Braintree branch over the last thirty years there is no class 321 or 315 or even anything suitable to bash. At least the freight is available in the form of DRS class 20s and some flasks!

 

Take the Clacton branch over the last fifty five years, absolutely nothing that has run on this branch in regular service has been modelled ready to run apart from the Windhoff MPV.

 

Even for the main lines the only stock available ready to run is the loco hauled trains which is probably about 5% of what actually runs!

 

Bring on 2020 if the manufacturers are actually going to make something we can run. Having to model the Goblin or Sudbury branch is currently the only option if you want rtr stock when a 153 or 170 might suffice. Finding space for a 3-car set is a comparatively minor problem.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Kelvin

 

Next time I see you I will give you some of my happy pills.

 

It all sounds very exciting, new stock for East Anglia, not hand me downs form somewhere else. That hasn't happened since the demise of steam and you were in short trousers.

 

Living here is Essex on the boarder lands between East Anglia and (so called) civilization we don't see those exciting DMUs you mention, we have had to put up with Dusty Bins, them purple 360s, and ex WCML 90s pushing Mk3 coaches.To see a 4 car EMU on its own is very rare. On the freight side which, will not change, it is what colour shed is on the front? So today it is boring. As for up to date layouts, how many mainline Anglia based layouts are there on the exhibition circuit? I am not aware of any mainly due to the OLE and because no one can afford to buy a full 12 car train of 321s from Bratchell. Is there a model of them 'orrid purple 360s?

 

I think that future modellers will find away of making the layouts they want so I look forward to 2025 seeing a layout stocked with all these new trains.

[Kelvin B]

Hi Kelvin

 

Next time I see you I will give you some of my happy pills.

 

It all sounds very exciting, new stock for East Anglia, not hand me downs form somewhere else. That hasn't happened since the demise of steam and you were in short trousers.

 

Living here is Essex on the boarder lands between East Anglia and (so called) civilization we don't see those exciting DMUs you mention, we have had to put up with Dusty Bins, them purple 360s, and ex WCML 90s pushing Mk3 coaches.To see a 4 car EMU on its own is very rare. On the freight side which, will not change, it is what colour shed is on the front? So today it is boring. As for up to date layouts, how many mainline Anglia based layouts are there on the exhibition circuit? I am not aware of any mainly due to the OLE and because no one can afford to buy a full 12 car train of 321s from Bratchell. Is there a model of them 'orrid purple 360s?

 

I think that future modellers will find away of making the layouts they want so I look forward to 2025 seeing a layout stocked with all these new trains.

God Clive I take enough pills already! You do realise I have had a charisma bypass operation.

 

I must admit a RTR 321 is way overdue, so many liveries since late 80's. I always wondered why Bachmann did the their 4 car Electric and not the 321/322/320, if done ten years ago it would have been reasonably priced, now who knows what price. My son has several ordered with our friends in N Gauge. We see quite a few 4 car 321's up here, usually as a substitute for a hauled set - I am not a miserable old git - just an average modeller without a bottomless bank account. I have scratch built a Tamper,Tram and many research coaches, so I am not adverse to getting round the non availability of RTR. 

 

I thought your world of modelling ended in 1970 anyway. I also agree with  a previous poster about the people moving tubes that replace the current stock.

 

Of course people will get around the problem, I never said they would not - but at what price!

 

See you soon

 

Kelvin B

[rockershovel]

I travelled from Yarmouth to Peterborough a while ago, having disembarked there on the pilot boat - awful! Station consisted of one platform functioning amid a bare-looking "rationalisation" of the old buildings. Train was sweaty and crowded, no catering at all and came to a stop for over an hour for no reason anyone would explain. No windows - horrible!

 

Recently had a couple of trips to Hartlepool and one to some other place whose blushes I'll spare, awful.

 

I'm generally a train travel fan but the local lines East of the ECML are an exception..

[Suzie]

Dagworth is a nice layout with lots of Great Eastern flavour.

[Hesperus]

I don't think there are any bits of mainline that can be readily modelled now in a domestic space in 4mm scale.

 

I live on the Welsh Marches line which is very much a secondary route and while the 2 and 3 car DMU's are eminantly modellable the 20 wagon freights aren't going to be an option in 4mm scale.  The rail scene has always been like this as far as I'm concerned though,  I grew up in Durham watching HSTs and 225s starting to appear in blue and red and the type 5's going from grey to black to maroon.

 

I worked out a while ago that I could make an attractive scale model of Durham station with the viaduct and a bit of embankment at either side in about 8' of length if I worked in T scale.  As it is I model a might have been from 90 years ago in a similar length in 0.

 

At least modern stock lends itself to the smaller scales where shunting is somewhat trickier.

[Kelvin B]

Dagworth is a nice layout with lots of Great Eastern flavour.

 

Yes, Agreed. I had the had a chance to operate it at Chelmsford Exhibition about 10 years ago with my old friend Keith Wright. A superb track plan by Andy in a medium space. If my memory serves me right it was running in late 80's mode.  Things were a lot cheaper 10 years ago. 

 

Kelvin B

[Clive Mortimore]

Yes, Agreed. I had the had a chance to operate it at Chelmsford Exhibition about 10 years ago with my old friend Keith Wright. A superb track plan by Andy in a medium space. If my memory serves me right it was running in late 80's mode.  Things were a lot cheaper 10 years ago. 

 

Kelvin B

Hi Kelvin and All

 

Dagworth is set in the 80s. It is fun to drive. But is lacking a 321 and other units of the time period. Andi did make a couple of Clactons (309s) but that is all there is/was in the way of EMUs.

 

At the Chelmsford show Kelvin mentioned poor old Hanging Hill was down to is D team as the rest of the blighters were helping Mr Dell.

 

As for the cost of model railway items, yes the prices have increased recently which is making think about which new models I buy. Having had two long periods out of work and many years where model railway finances were limited, in fact I think I built more then than I do now. I am still sure that we will still view layouts portraying the present railway scene even in the future. 

 

Back to me Tri-ang coach sides, gluing the last two coaches' sides up for a full 10 coach  Clacton and Walton set.

[plarailfan]

Just having had a browse at an open day event, I would say that new build housing and homes seem to be built on the small side, often with limited opportunities for building a reasonable size layout - the house I just looked at was £250.000 and the only suitable space would have been for a shelf, or shunting plank tucked away in the generous size, built in wardrobe.

Maybe, one day, we will be like Japanese modellers, where the majority of enthusiasts, model in N gauge.

[cromptonnut]

It's not just new homes - down here in the south east older homes are eye-wateringly expensive too, as we're finding out as we try to move from renting to owning at last.

 

Looks like we're priced out of the area (1 bed flat for £300k anyone???) so we'll have no choice but to move away.

[Zomboid]

It's not just new homes - down here in the south east older homes are eye-wateringly expensive too, as we're finding out as we try to move from renting to owning at last.

 

Looks like we're priced out of the area (1 bed flat for £300k anyone???) so we'll have no choice but to move away.

I honestly have no idea who actually buys houses in London. There can't be that many people on 100k, can there?

[Suzie]

Time for a Modular Great Eastern based club methinks...

[Dunsignalling]

Hello all

 

I have just been looking at Abelio East Anglia's list of new units to be delivered 2019/2020. It is clear we are losing some or most of our older units. Losses will include the 153,156,170,321,360 as well as the Class 90's and eight coach sets. These units range from one car to 4 car.

 

The new sets coming in are 12 car, 10 car on the main lines and 5, 4 and 3 car Electric/Diesel on the suburban and branch lines.

 

I think the days of small branch line model layouts with one or  two car units is over if modelling beyond 2020.

 

With the price of a 2 car unit nearly £160, what price a new unit of 3,4 or 5 cars, not to mention a 10 or 12 car. Then consider the space needed. I believe if these units are ever produced they will be in the realm only for rich Model clubs and individuals, certainly not average independent modellers.

 

I realise this is progress for East Anglia and it is greatly needed, but modelling the then modern scene could be difficult if these units are ever produced. 

 

I have targeted East Anglia in this post, but other parts of the UK will be affected sooner or later.

 

I have not mentioned freight which also seem to be getting longer. Out of interest I wonder what will happen on branches like Felixstowe - Ipswich, usually a one car unit. Would a 3 car unit make economic sense or will it be a permanent bustitution? That would certainly make the container operators very happy.

 

I guess the days of running two or three Mk3's on tyre turning trips, loco hauled on my layout will be over soon as well.

 

I know we have had the HST, Javelin and Blue Pullman to a good standard for years, and you can run the HST 'short' but with prices rising on China produced products so fast, prototypical length may not be possible for most modellers.

 

Being an old 'fuddy duddy' I will be happy to end my modelling period in East Anglia when the new units arrive, but image going to an Exhibition in 2025 and there are no up to date layouts. 

 

Note - I have written this with my OO hat on.      

 

Just a few thoughts.

 

Kelvin Barnes

This is something that affects most eras and prototypes. Long trains in model form inevitably cost more than short ones, as do the real things.

 

The logical answer is that if you can afford the sort of layout that requires full length trains and a house able to accommodate it, the cost of the stock isn't so likely to be an issue.

 

John

[Kelvin B]

This is something that affects most eras and prototypes. Long trains in model form inevitably cost more than short ones, as do the real things.

 

The logical answer is that if you can afford the sort of layout that requires full length trains and a house able to accommodate it, the cost of the stock isn't so likely to be an issue.

 

John

John

 OK - its coming over to me that space seems to be a bigger problem than price! But my point is still relevant, up to 2020, you can have a layout similar to Sudbury or a little larger running 1,  or 2 car units, after this date in East Anglia, this may not be possible. Lets forget about the Rich and concentrate on Mr Average.

 

'susie'

Nice thought, we did try this about 5 years ago through the Anglia Group of DEMU, led by Keith Wright. We had 10 plus interested including Clive. We had earmarked East Suffolk Junction as option. Sadly Keith died soon after and no one else took on the leadership.

 

Kelvin  B

[Clive Mortimore]

John

 OK - its coming over to me that space seems to be a bigger problem than price! But my point is still relevant, up to 2020, you can have a layout similar to Sudbury or a little larger running 1,  or 2 car units, after this date in East Anglia, this may not be possible. Lets forget about the Rich and concentrate on Mr Average.

 

'susie'

Nice thought, we did try this about 5 years ago through the Anglia Group of DEMU, led by Keith Wright. We had 10 plus interested including Clive. We had earmarked East Suffolk Junction as option. Sadly Keith died soon after and no one else took on the leadership.

 

Kelvin  B

Hi Kelvin

 

I still have the drawings for the OLE mast.

[Kelvin B]

Hi Kelvin

 

I still have the drawings for the OLE mast.

 Hi Clive

 

The East Suffolk idea was generally a good group idea - but sadly finance was not thought through. Its a bit different there now since remodelling. A double track main line through countryside would be nice, even with a up and down loop to keep interest, All with overheads of course.  Not suggesting it, but this would be possible in N Gauge soon.

 

Cheers

 

Kelvin B

[Kris]

I don't think there are any bits of mainline that can be readily modelled now in a domestic space in 4mm scale.

 

You could model the South West, particularly Cornwall. The longest train would be an 8+2 HST, unless you model the Fowey China Clay flow. When looking to the future trains will get shorter down here so it will become more modelable. Not saying that it's an overly interesting variety of trains however. 

[TomJ]

From the title I thought this thread was going to be an argument about global warming and flooding!

[Clive Mortimore]

From the title I thought this thread was going to be an argument about global warming and flooding!

Hi Tom

 

You weren't going to be rude about those living on the Fens and Broads being able to put in to use their web toes and fingers as the water level rises? :dontknow:

[298]

Time for a Modular Great Eastern based club methinks...

  

This is something that affects most eras and prototypes. Long trains in model form inevitably cost more than short ones, as do the real things.

 

The logical answer is that if you can afford the sort of layout that requires full length trains and a house able to accommodate it, the cost of the stock isn't so likely to be an issue.

 

John

Two very good posts. The OP raises a valid point, but I'd be more concerned with the whole exhibition scene falling off the proverbial cliff due to the ageing demographic within the hobby, instead of exactly what is available and at what cost.

 

Something that annoys me within the hobby (speaking as someone who hopes to enjoy it for many years yet) is the double-edged cornundrum of how to get punters to be more appreciative of an exhibitors efforts instead of trotting out the usual "I don't like foreign/different scale/different era layouts that don't fit my own personal preference, and equally how to encourage exhibitors to achieve better, instead of dusting off something that looks like it has been buried in a shed for 25 years.

[Kelvin B]

Hi Tom

 

You weren't going to be rude about those living on the Fens and Broads being able to put in to use their web toes and fingers as the water level rises? :dontknow:

 HI Tom and Clive

 

OK - I give up - This is the main reason I have not posted before - replies on this site just degenerate into pointless so called humour - Get those tablets Clive - you need them more than me!! Back to being a watcher for me! Children.

 

Bye

 

Kelvin B

[Clive Mortimore]

You could model the South West, particularly Cornwall. The longest train would be an 8+2 HST, unless you model the Fowey China Clay flow. When looking to the future trains will get shorter down here so it will become more modelable. Not saying that it's an overly interesting variety of trains however. 

Hi Kris

 

Living in the boarder lands between the hustle and bustle of or capital and sleepy East Anglia I can see the appeal of the later to those who are local to it.

 

In Kelvin's opening post he list myriad of unit types that are presently traversing the remaining country lines, most of which if you wished to make a little layout would be very suitable. With the plans for longer trains only will have the potential to discourage future modellers of the present scene from making a nice little layout. Now I see where he is coming from, lets hope the railway management see sense and have short trains on the lines that only have short trains on them at present. Therefore giving the manufacturer the opportunity to offer the modeller affordable trains and potential small layouts portraying the beauty of the steady pace of life that is East Anglia. 

[jjb1970]

Something to remember about house size is that in some ways the general shrinking of houses is a retreat from the growth of average room and house size of a relatively recent era and that until not that long ago most working people in large parts of the country lived in very small terraced houses of the two up two down variety or in tenements. You can do a lot in a compact space in OO, clearly you're probably not going to run 10 car trains on a continuous loop (although it may be possible to do that) but you can do a lot with an end to end layout and smaller layouts are often the most attractive and interesting.