What Price Modelling East Anglia Beyond 2020

[Classsix T]

Hi Kelvin, not bad ta, still keep an eye out for you at Ely when passing!

 

I haven't been to Flixtowe since the new terminal opened so can't help sorry. Perhaps someone in the Ipswich Transport Society might be able to help with that?

 

The possibility of a new platform at Ipswich is news to me, I certainly need to get out and record the current operations before it all disappears.

 

C6T.

[Nearholmer]

This thread is really "none of my business", because I don't model 00 or N, or modern image, or East Anglia, but ........

 

I find the woefulness about very modern image rather strange, because modern N gauge is so very good, and so very suited to modern image. So good, in fact, that I'm almost thinking about building a layout in that format. The freight locos and trains are particularly colourful.

 

And, if nobody makes your favourite EMU/DMU r-t-r, it isn't that hard to create it using etched or printed parts mounted on a commercially available chassis that runs like a Swiss watch.

 

You've never had it so good!

 

Kevin

[Clive Mortimore]

This thread is really "none of my business", because I don't model 00 or N, or modern image, or East Anglia, but ........

 

I find the woefulness about very modern image rather strange, because modern N gauge is so very good, and so very suited to modern image. So good, in fact, that I'm almost thinking about building a layout in that format. The freight locos and trains are particularly colourful.

 

And, if nobody makes your favourite EMU/DMU r-t-r, it isn't that hard to create it using etched or printed parts mounted on a commercially available chassis that runs like a Swiss watch.

 

You've never had it so good!

 

Kevin

Hi Kevin

 

I think you have missed what Kelvin was saying. The proposed new trains are going to be 3 car minimum and up to 12 car for one unit. We know that with today's 3 and 4 car multiple units they do not sell very well due to their price. Will those modelling the current scene from 2020 on wards be able to afford to model.

 

As a diesel and electric modeller just adding etch or printed sides is not that simple to make model DMUs and EMUs.They are not always available, or if they are sometimes not that great.

[Kelvin B]

Hi Kelvin, not bad ta, still keep an eye out for you at Ely when passing!

 

I haven't been to Flixtowe since the new terminal opened so can't help sorry. Perhaps someone in the Ipswich Transport Society might be able to help with that?

 

The possibility of a new platform at Ipswich is news to me, I certainly need to get out and record the current operations before it all disappears.

 

C6T.

Hi Carl

 

Still going over to Ely, but with three grandsons now they take up a lot of time. Ely tends to be more random because of this. Pity I can't get over more as it is still quite busy and the storage of the 442's is different to say the least. I think any changes to Ipswich station does depend on F/L moving, and after more traffic going via the chord.  

 

Cheers

 

Kelvin B

[Kelvin B]

Hi Kevin

 

I think you have missed what Kelvin was saying. The proposed new trains are going to be 3 car minimum and up to 12 car for one unit. We know that with today's 3 and 4 car multiple units they do not sell very well due to their price. Will those modelling the current scene from 2020 on wards be able to afford to model.

 

As a diesel and electric modeller just adding etch or printed sides is not that simple to make model DMUs and EMUs.They are not always available, or if they are sometimes not that great.

Clive

 

Thanks, that is totally correct. With my son now committed to N gauge Pendelino and 321's. I have decided to help him with his project. My original query has not and probably won't be resolved in OO as you said. As I said in a previous post I do fancy a small layout depicting a couple of sidings with fuelling from a road vehicle.

 

Cheers

 

Kelvin B

[Nearholmer]

Clive,

 

Hmmm ........

 

Sticking with N gauge, because, to me, it seems to offer the greatest opportunity for modern image to fit in relatively small homes, there seem to me to be huge opportunities for things like clear plastic body shells, with laser-cut "sticky backed plastic" overlays, either commercially or domestically produced.

 

If you look at the creativity deployed by, say, 009 modellers, and transfer that thinking to N gauge, I'm not convinced that things need get out of the financial reach of "The Average Modeller" (to resurrect an old strap-line).

 

Zipping down to the shop and buying a 12-car EMU r-t-r EMU, made to the very highest standards achievable at the time, is a different question; that has been an expensive proposition since the first r-t-r EMU came onto the market; it is an expensive proposition now; and, it probably always will be.

 

My gut feeling is that, if modellers find the post-2020 railway sufficiently inspiring, they will find ways to model it at affordable cost (and modern technology always helps in that), just as they have with every other era. And, if they don't find it sufficiently inspiring, they can always model something else.

 

Kevin

 

PS: just in case the "What does this bloke who dabbles in old r-t-r 0 gauge know about it?" question arises, I would add in my defence that the first c35 years of my modelling time was spent between 009, 00, H0, EM, 0-14, 0-16.5, and garden railways, all the indoor stuff being in small spaces, and all with time, rather than cash, being the significant investment. I only fell into my current niche when I became utterly time-strapped, because of work and family commitments, about five years ago.

[Suzie]

In the olden days when HSTs were quite long, you could buy a 4-car HST and extra coaches. In more modern times we have seen train packs where the key part of the train is in one pack, and if you want it a bit longer you could buy an expansion pack. Not sure how the economics of this stack up with modern batch manufacturing and a reluctance to store anything in warehouses, but it might be a way to make modern EMUs a bit more affordable to those with limited space and budget.I

 

t is not like the prototype doesn't very in length over time - HSTs have got shorter while Pendolinos have got longer!

[Kelvin B]

In the olden days when HSTs were quite long, you could buy a 4-car HST and extra coaches. In more modern times we have seen train packs where the key part of the train is in one pack, and if you want it a bit longer you could buy an expansion pack. Not sure how the economics of this stack up with modern batch manufacturing and a reluctance to store anything in warehouses, but it might be a way to make modern EMUs a bit more affordable to those with limited space and budget.I

 

t is not like the prototype doesn't very in length over time - HSTs have got shorter while Pendolinos have got longer!

Suzie

 

In the olden days - yes, I remember them!!! The Hornby HST was sold as a four pack, 2 coaches and 2 pc's. If I remember correctly the Mk3's were not full length (spacesavers) and it was not until Lima brought out the full length Mk3's did they become prototypical. The HST's are likely to get smaller when they move to Scotland, 2 + 5 has been talked about.. Good opportunities for modelling current Scotrail scene, sadly not East Anglia. 

 

I totally agree with what you said on batch manufacture - the number of times I have wanted a HST (PC's available)  in a certain livery only to be told the coaches are not due for six months and then not all of them at the same time! 

 

And yes, I am not opposed to short formed Emu's and extra coach's added later. But we could be back to batch manufacture again. And you always have the self appointed expert at Exhibitions saying - 'you got that wrong mate'

 

 

Kelvin B

[Revolution Mike]

We know that with today's 3 and 4 car multiple units they do not sell very well due to their price. Will those modelling the current scene from 2020 on wards be able to afford to model.

 

I think this is a difficult one for manufacturers and customers - the difficulty is that the majority of people want the complete train (eg we have sold far more of our 9 or 11 car Pendolinos than the 5-car "shortened" sets for people who don't have room) so that means the initial purchase price is more expensive than say a loco, but by the time you have added any stock for the loco the total price for loco + stock will be very similar to that of a MU so the value for money is similar. The advantage of loco hauled stock is that you might* be able to buy things in stages rather than all at once.

 

I wonder if it is possible to release train packs eg a short set of 4 cars and then add on sets to make the full train.  The problem for a manufacturer is if you don't have the whole lot available at the outset then some customers will be unhappy that they can't buy the complete train, and if you do have the complete lot available then some customers will stage their purchases which means holding stock (which no manufacturer wants to do)!

 

I'm not sure I have the solution, but I'd love to hear people's ideas.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Kelvin B]

I think this is a difficult one for manufacturers and customers - the difficulty is that the majority of people want the complete train (eg we have sold far more of our 9 or 11 car Pendolinos than the 5-car "shortened" sets for people who don't have room) so that means the initial purchase price is more expensive than say a loco, but by the time you have added any stock for the loco the total price for loco + stock will be very similar to that of a MU so the value for money is similar. The advantage of loco hauled stock is that you might* be able to buy things in stages rather than all at once.

 

I wonder if it is possible to release train packs eg a short set of 4 cars and then add on sets to make the full train.  The problem for a manufacturer is if you don't have the whole lot available at the outset then some customers will be unhappy that they can't buy the complete train, and if you do have the complete lot available then some customers will stage their purchases which means holding stock (which no manufacturer wants to do)!

 

I'm not sure I have the solution, but I'd love to hear people's ideas.

 

Cheers, Mike

Mike 

 

This thread started of as OO, but moving to N gauge as an alternative is most welcome. As I said in an earlier post my son has both a pendelino and some 321's on order from you. I have also agreed to help him build a layout in his garage. I am not totally surprised that the 9 and 11 cars are selling better than the five, my son has ordered a 11 car, for prototype reasons..  I did point out to him that if running a WCML layout, you would probably need two pendelino's to make it looks prototypical. Passing trains always look good!

 

Could it be that most orders are for Railway Clubs that have layouts already, possibly purchased by individuals. Perhaps joining a club is the way forward, they have a lot to offer. The combined purchasing power is certainly attractive.

 

We can buy most things on  'HP' nowadays, but a huge risk factor and more unwanted Admin. 

 

Stage payment is a possibility - but more admin again. 

 

Discounts for multi purchases.

 

Modellers could start a 'group' either in a club or individuals - again increase you purchasing power.

 

Just a thought

 

Kelvin B

[Talltim]

Do clubs have club owned rolling stock? I've only been a member of two clubs and apart from the odd battered HD wagon or Lima shunter, they stock has always been owned by the individual members

It is not like the prototype doesn't very in length over time - HSTs have got shorter while Pendolinos have got longer!

HSTs have also got longer in some places

[PM47079]

Yep the fuel tankers at Felixstowe fuelled the locks at Felixstowe and the Ipswich fitters were out stationed at Felixstowe with a van full of bulbs, sump oil and other odds and ends, and anything really broken went dead in train to Leeds midland Road on 4e22

[Kelvin B]

Yep the fuel tankers at Felixstowe fuelled the locks at Felixstowe and the Ipswich fitters were out stationed at Felixstowe with a van full of bulbs, sump oil and other odds and ends, and anything really broken went dead in train to Leeds midland Road on 4e22

Hi

 

Thanks for confirming this and the attending van - great info.

 

Kelvin B

[Classsix T]

Yep the fuel tankers at Felixstowe fuelled the locks at Felixstowe and the Ipswich fitters were out stationed at Felixstowe with a van full of bulbs, sump oil and other odds and ends, and anything really broken went dead in train to Leeds midland Road on 4e22

I'm a lazy . Can you tell me the departure time of Echo22 please Chief?

 

I'll often see a dit in one of the northbound liners in the morning and seems prudent to use that to get to Midland Road.

 

(and Kelvin's gonna scold me when I let him know I saw a van at Stow obviously for loco fitter parts that I didn't take a picture of, sorry Barney! Transit with some sort of branding on...)

 

TIA, C6T.

[PM47079]

It now goes in the yard at Ipswich at about 0630 then leaves about 07.30 with a fresh locomotive then it sits at Ely from about 9 am till about 9.20 on the goods then it's right away to Peterborough where a Leeds driver takes over

[Classsix T]

Exactly the one then thanx. I'm 07:45 off SMK.

 

C6T.

[PM47079]

No problem

[Ravenser]

Hi Kevin

 

I think you have missed what Kelvin was saying. The proposed new trains are going to be 3 car minimum and up to 12 car for one unit. We know that with today's 3 and 4 car multiple units they do not sell very well due to their price. Will those modelling the current scene from 2020 on wards be able to afford to model.

 

As a diesel and electric modeller just adding etch or printed sides is not that simple to make model DMUs and EMUs.They are not always available, or if they are sometimes not that great.

 

And some of the liveries are a pig (One point in favour of the 360s as a modelling proposition. The points against are the need to scratchbuild the entire thing)

[gc4946]

I've found out some dimensions of the European versions of Stadler's FLIRT EMUs:

 

http://www.4rail.net/reference_rollingstock_emu_flirt1.php see heading: Flirt Technical Information

 

length: (4 cars typical): 74 - 75 meters - works out at 18.5 to 18.75m per carriage, but they're articulated.

In OO scale each carriage would be 243.4 or 243.5mm long (about 60' 10"), shorter than a Mk1.

 

height: 4.1 - 4.4m
width: 2880 mm, Finnish variant 3200 mm 

 

The UK versions will probably be narrower and lower to suit our loading gauge.

 

Even the shortest units, 3-car electro-diesel versions, will be shorter than three Mk1s in OO scale (see table in Railway gazette)

 

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/stadler-and-bombardier-to-supply-trains-for-abellio-east-anglia-franchise.html
 

 

 

 

[James Makin]

This could be quite a local 'conundrum' - down here in the South you hardly ever see an East Anglian layout, most of the them are more local, NSE, BR(S) and pre-nationalisation Southern Railway etc - the fact that East Anglia is due new trains sometime will have very little impact on the face of it!

 

But you could draw similarities - not many people here model modern post-2000s Southen Region very well as there's many missing EMUs, the Junipers, Desiros, Electrostars that are the staple of the fleet these days, and these are a minimum 4 coaches, often 8s and 12's. So in effect, we're a step ahead of the East Anglian and already not many people model it! If short of space, I probably wouldn't change scale though, but choose a different prototype if needed.

 

I think the best solution is to embrace becoming a grumpy old g*t and model the past, that's what I'm doing, and apart from the much-discussed RTR prices, the infamous "weveneverhaditsogood" comments that used to cause so many arguments in D&E modelling back in the day, are now actually coming true..!

 

By the way Kelvin - loved your old 'Melford' layout when it appeared in Model Rail (was it 2000?) - most inspirational for the early-teenage modeller in me!

[Clive Mortimore]

This could be quite a local 'conundrum' - down here in the South you hardly ever see an East Anglian layout, most of the them are more local, NSE, BR(S) and pre-nationalisation Southern Railway etc - the fact that East Anglia is due new trains sometime will have very little impact on the face of it!

Cheeky toad.......at least our train service runs.   Modelling can be fairly locally based once you get through the GWR/BR (WR)  modelling.

 

 

But you could draw similarities - not many people here model modern post-2000s Southen Region very well as there's many missing EMUs, the Junipers, Desiros, Electrostars that are the staple of the fleet these days, and these are a minimum 4 coaches, often 8s and 12's. So in effect, we're a step ahead of the East Anglian and already not many people model it! If short of space, I probably wouldn't change scale though, but choose a different prototype if needed.

 

 

I do know of someone who got fed up waiting for the fat bald bloke to make masters of the Electrostar cabs that he made an excellent job himself.....................I only threw away the ones I was doing a couple of months ago when tiding up the plastic card box.   Some parts of the old GER have always had long EMU trains, 9 car 306s, 12 car 312s and today 12 car 321s etc. it is only the very nice rural areas that are so modelable with their short trains. 

 

 

I think the best solution is to embrace becoming a grumpy old g*t and model the past, that's what I'm doing, and apart from the much-discussed RTR prices, the infamous "weveneverhaditsogood" comments that used to cause so many arguments in D&E modelling back in the day, are now actually coming true..!

 

Welcome to the club, I am still modelling the "Modern Image" as I know knew it.

 

 

By the way Kelvin - loved your old 'Melford' layout when it appeared in Model Rail (was it 2000?) - most inspirational for the early-teenage modeller in me!

 

I agree James, Kelvin do make a good layout.

[Reorte]

Plenty of layouts that are set in the past run trains that are rather shorter than the prototypes would, particularly when modelling mainline locations, just as plenty of other aspects get compressed. I don't see any reason this can't be applied to the modern scene, with a few vehicles left out of even fixed units. Perhaps it's just rather more obvious if it's applied to something you see regularly in the 1:1 world (and removing vehicles from fixed formations of permamently coupled units somehow feels like taking more of a liberty than dropping a few Mk 1s).

[Kelvin B]

This could be quite a local 'conundrum' - down here in the South you hardly ever see an East Anglian layout, most of the them are more local, NSE, BR(S) and pre-nationalisation Southern Railway etc - the fact that East Anglia is due new trains sometime will have very little impact on the face of it!

 

But you could draw similarities - not many people here model modern post-2000s Southen Region very well as there's many missing EMUs, the Junipers, Desiros, Electrostars that are the staple of the fleet these days, and these are a minimum 4 coaches, often 8s and 12's. So in effect, we're a step ahead of the East Anglian and already not many people model it! If short of space, I probably wouldn't change scale though, but choose a different prototype if needed.

 

I think the best solution is to embrace becoming a grumpy old g*t and model the past, that's what I'm doing, and apart from the much-discussed RTR prices, the infamous "weveneverhaditsogood" comments that used to cause so many arguments in D&E modelling back in the day, are now actually coming true..!

 

By the way Kelvin - loved your old 'Melford' layout when it appeared in Model Rail (was it 2000?) - most inspirational for the early-teenage modeller in me!

Hi James

 

I agree 100% with your post, we have a very colourful modern image past over the last 25 years. And if not moving gauge and era, there are plenty of alternatives in OO. I do understand the Manufacturers reluctance to model the larger multi-car units, this excludes the iconic HST. They have all had some disappointing sales, all the London Midland EMU's are still available after four or so years on sale, the two car Blue EPB seemed to hang about for ages as well. I have to say some of their choice of liveries do make me wonder whether they do any modellers research. There are many people out there that have good knowledge of what would sell and what would not, DEMU for instance. I think the DMU's replaced in East Anglia will all find good homes, replacing Pacers and other early 2nd Gen DMUS's. So some 2020  plus modelling will exist when moving location. Sadly I am a East Anglia modelling Git, but a move will happen. 

 

Thanks for you kind comments on Melford, it was only the 3rd layout I ever built and I loved it dearly and its operation was great. I sadly sold it to someone I thought would really look after it, sadly they did not and virtually trashed it. I now have very few photo's of it, what there is, are on my website.  And yes, it was Jan 2000 in Model Rail.

 

I think your layout's are great, Wells Green and Loftus Road are classics. If anything I had published helped you in any way, then I feel very humble. 

 

Best wishes

 

Kelvin B  

[Kelvin B]

Plenty of layouts that are set in the past run trains that are rather shorter than the prototypes would, particularly when modelling mainline locations, just as plenty of other aspects get compressed. I don't see any reason this can't be applied to the modern scene, with a few vehicles left out of even fixed units. Perhaps it's just rather more obvious if it's applied to something you see regularly in the 1:1 world (and removing vehicles from fixed formations of permamently coupled units somehow feels like taking more of a liberty than dropping a few Mk 1s).

Hi Reorte

 

Totally agree - what you shortened with loco hauled did still look OK - Units a lot less so. 

 

Kelvin B

[Classsix T]

Are you going to Risby on Saturday Kelvin?

 

Just seen Terry is displaying “Neely“ so I might pop along. Your Ely roundy stock would be very at home on it I think!

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/99461-neely-present-day-nearly-ely-in-n/page-4

 

C6T.