'Great Western' 64xx's a fiction of the part of Lionheart?

[HRH_Dan_Hull]

Several years ago Lionheart Trains produced 6410 in green with 'GREAT WESTERN' on the tanks but I see Bachmann and Farish have not issued any in this livery in 00 or N. Having dug around in books, locomotives illustrated and on the net, I can't find any photos whatsoever of the real thing carrying this livery. I know they were built in 1932, very close to the point where Shirtbuttons were applied instead of 'GREAT WESTERN'. I'm sure Lionheart didn't make a mistake back in 2009 and worked from a photo of the real thing but I can't find a definite answer or evidence that they did. If anyone can say for sure firstly if they carried 'GREAT WESTERN' on the tanks and if so where I can find a photo of one like it, it would be very much appreciated.

[Captain Kernow]

'The Pannier Papers' covering the 54XX, 64XX and 74XX classes certainly confirms the fact that the locos (or certainly the earlier 64XXs) had 'Great Western' on the tank sides, and indeed there are photos in the book of 6406, 6407 and 6408 with this livery.

 

The book also suggests that the class (or some of them) had 'GWR' on the tank sides, before going to the roundel.

 

There are also several photos of 64XXs in the book with the roundel, of course.

 

Hope this helps.

[asmay2002]

The book also suggests that the class (or some of them) had 'GWR' on the tank sides, before going to the roundel.

 

This seems unlikely given that the roundel was a pre-WW2 livery and "GWR" was wartime/postwar.

[Captain Kernow]

This seems unlikely given that the roundel was a pre-WW2 livery and "GWR" was wartime/postwar.

Yes, I agree with you. I have just re-read the passage in 'The Pannier Papers' and I think I misread what they say. I believe the inference is that some locos went from 'Great Western' to GWR and some of those that had the roundel went to GWR.

 

As ever, photographic evidence, where available, is useful.

[HRH_Dan_Hull]

Well only 14 months later I have a model with 'GREAT WESTERN' by way of lettering in N... thanks for the information gentlemen.

[Killian keane]

The 14xx autotanks were built the same year and they carried 'great western' lettering, ergo so must have the 64xx

[Steamport Southport]

It was only the first ten that carried GREAT WESTERN, The others were all out shopped with the shirtbutton as it was introduced in 1934.

 

So 6410 in GREAT WESTERN is wrong.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-64xx.html

 

 

 

Jason

[jim.snowdon]

It was only the first ten that carried GREAT WESTERN, The others were all out shopped with the shirtbutton as it was introduced in 1934.

 

So 6410 in GREAT WESTERN is wrong.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-64xx.html

 

 

 

Jason

Not necessarily. To make that assertion you need to know just when in 1934 the change to the shirtbutton was implemented in the works, and just when in 1934 6410 was painted. I don't suppose for one moment that the shirtbutton livery became effective on January 1st, and whatever the actual date was, if the construction of 6410 had reached the point where the transfers were applied even the week before the change to the shirtbutton, it would have got the then current Great Western treatment and they wouldn't rush round to overpaint those a week later and apply new transfers just for the sake of it - such things cost money. There are likely to be such factors as how many of the old style of transfers the painters still had to use up before drawing more from the Stores. Change does not happen instantly in large organisations and the railways were no exception.

 

All that is certain is that out of a batch of 15 locomotives, 6425 would almost certainly have come out with the shirtbutton livery, 6410 might still have had Great Western, and the change would have been somewhere early in the batch.

 

Jim

[Miss Prism]

The first roundel was applied by hand on 1 June 1934. The official roundel drawing was issued in July 1934. The transfers arrived a month or so later. 6410-24 were lot 294, whose end completion span date is 1934-5. So we don't really know what the members of lot 294 appeared in.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Miss Prism

[Steamport Southport]

Well 6410s to service date was apparently 11/1934 so that almost certainly clears that up.

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/060_6400det.htm

 

http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=6410&loco=6410

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Miss Prism]

Well 6410s to service date was apparently 11/1934 so that almost certainly clears that up.

 

Yes, which is why I hedged my bets on gwr.org's page.

[jim.snowdon]

All that tells us is that nothing painted before a date some time in August 1934 could have had the shirtbutton applied as a transfer. It doesn't tell us when the Swindon painters changed over from the old to new stock, nor when 6410 was painted. Nor would the GWR have sent people rushing round the system to change all the company branding in the way that corporates like to do these days, so there will have been locos running around with the Great Western branding for years, to the point where some may never even have received the shirtbutton. The model is at least in a legitimate GWR livery and there is always the option to renumber it into the 6400-6409 batch. On the whole, I wouldn't get too worked up about it.

 

By way of illustrating that "incorrect" livery variations do occur in reality, I found a picture of 6421 on the Rail-Online site (http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p647340826) in fully lined BR green but with the pre-1957 BR logo. In theory, that shouldn't happen as the changes in the BR organisation that gave the Regions greater autonomy, and led to Swindon painting lots of previously black locomotives into lined green happened at the same time as the change to the 1957 pattern logo.

 

Jim

[Dunsignalling]

It's also worth bearing in mind that new livery elements tend not to be plentiful to begin with and customarily find their way onto high-profile express locos (both new and overhauled) first. 

 

Thus, stocks of old transfers still being used up on new branch-line locos a few months after the official launch is quite likely.

 

In the case of 6410, I'd be very cagey about being categorical as to which it had ex-works without seeing a reliably dated early photo.

 

John

Edited December 10, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Marshall5]

 

 

Thus, stocks of old transfers still being used up on new branch-line locos a few months after the official launch is quite likely.

 

 

John

A good example of what John is saying is shown by the batch of B.R. Std. 76xxx turned out by Horwich in 1957.  Despite being superceded by the 'Ferret & Dartboard' in 1956 all the locos were turned out with the old 'Cycling Lion' crest.

Ray.

[Steamport Southport]

They seem to be a bit camera shy in the early days.

 

But 6417 from the same batch is definitely carrying the roundel in May 1935. Photo in Collett and Hawksworth Locomotives by Haresnape.

 

 

 

Jason

[jim.snowdon]

They seem to be a bit camera shy in the early days.

 

But 6417 from the same batch is definitely carrying the roundel in May 1935. Photo in Collett and Hawksworth Locomotives by Haresnape.

 

 

 

Jason

Which tells us nothing more than that it was carrying the roundel in May 1935, and from which we can presume that it was branded thus when it was painted. It may have been from the same production run as 6410, ie 6410 - 6425, but not necessarily from the same batch. Steam locomotives, particularly in railway-owned works, are not turned out on a production line, but in small batches, not least as they have to compete for resources against the considerably larger volume of locomotives in for overhaul and repair, which generally take priority.

 

That 6410 may have been turned out of Swindon bearing Great Western lettering is entrirely plausible, but nothing can be proven either way without either a reliably dated photograph or more detailed records than we have access to, if such exist. I wouldn't rely on information taken from engine record cards in terms of the actual build date, particularly if the works did not have to invoice the Operating Department at the point of handover, in comparison to the private locomotive builders, where the entry into service was a commercial transaction.

 

Jim