Eurostar scrapping class 373s

[Fat Controller]

So what would be the problem with, say, reducing them to 10-11 coach sets (not half sets) and replacing the pantographs? Slightly shorter than the NoL sets and with a single bar-buffet in the set.

 

Cheers

David

You'd have to entirely rewire them, I believe. When they were being built, Model Railways did a feature on the setting up and testing of the units, and mention was made that a wiring harness, the length of the entire train, had to be used between the two power cars to set up the correct timings for raising/lowering pantographs etc.

[pete_mcfarlane]

You'd have to entirely rewire them, I believe. When they were being built, Model Railways did a feature on the setting up and testing of the units, and mention was made that a wiring harness, the length of the entire train, had to be used between the two power cars to set up the correct timings for raising/lowering pantographs etc.

Presumably the onboard electronics are assuming a delay in propagating control signals between the front and rear power cars based on a cable the length of a full train. (In layman's speak, you have to tell the rear power car to do things a few milliseconds earlier than the front one, so the signal has time to travel along the wires between them. How 'early' this needs to be is based on the length of the train) 

 

How easy it will be to change will probably depend on how they designed the software and hardware, which is now 20 years old. Making occasional modifications to really old software can be horrendously expensive, as you have to pay for people to understand how the software is written. 

[Edwin_m]

You'd have to entirely rewire them, I believe. When they were being built, Model Railways did a feature on the setting up and testing of the units, and mention was made that a wiring harness, the length of the entire train, had to be used between the two power cars to set up the correct timings for raising/lowering pantographs etc.

I find that a little hard to believe.  If nothing else the train is supposed to be splittable for Tunnel emergencies so there must be at least one plug coupler involved, and having one at each articulation to make the portions separable would have been eminently sensible and wouldn't have affected the signal propagation delay.

[Fat Controller]

I find that a little hard to believe.  If nothing else the train is supposed to be splittable for Tunnel emergencies so there must be at least one plug coupler involved, and having one at each articulation to make the portions separable would have been eminently sensible and wouldn't have affected the signal propagation delay.

If the train were split in the event of an emergency, then the control of the second power car would not have been an issue.

[Coryton]

You'd have to entirely rewire them, I believe. When they were being built, Model Railways did a feature on the setting up and testing of the units, and mention was made that a wiring harness, the length of the entire train, had to be used between the two power cars to set up the correct timings for raising/lowering pantographs etc.

 

If the timing really relies on propagation times along the train (and they weren't just making the test as realistic as possible by mimicking the full harness length of a train to produce the correct voltage drops and maximum signal delay etc.) then it probably wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to run a train that was - say - 4 coaches shorter but had some loops in the wiring to keep the overall harness length the same...

[jjb1970]

One of the big inhibitors to changing safety critical control systems is the cost of getting the changes approved and amending safety cases etc along with the risks associated with the upgrade not working. Sometimes in applications like these it is considered better to just live with a sub-optimal system that works and has all the required approvals. Where companies do decide to take the risks and pay the costs of change then there needs to be a pretty compelling case to demonstrate that such a step is worth the effort.

[298]

With modern electronics, surely the onboard computers will take care of that. Nowadays you'd have 100 times the computing power in less than half the space against the 1990's equipment, for a fraction of the cost!

That might be fine if you're starting from scratch, but as others have said, updating 20yr electronics (as my factory is currently doing) is hideously expensive and highlights issues that may require changes to mechanical parts too.

[JDW]

I've just arrived back (OK, yesterday night) from a trip to the south of France by train. I haven't often used Eurostar, I think that's only the second return trip I've made, and was well aware before I went of talk that the units were getting dated and worn. I was travelling in first class - sorry, standard premier, whatever that means - all the way from St Pancras to Montpellier and back. For those interested, details of the trip are:

 

Doncaster > Kings Cross - Hull Trains Class 180(standard class on a staff ticket)

St Pancras > Lille Europe - Class 373 (standard premier)

Lille Europe > Nimes - TGV Duplex (upstairs, first class)

Nimes > Agde - TGV Duplex (downstairs, first class)

followed by a week of TERs, both units and loco hauled, as well as the odd TGV and Intercité, all second class), then back home

Agde > Montpellier St Roch - TER EMU

Montpellier St Roch > Paris Lyon - TGV Duplex (upstairs, first class)

Paris Lyon > Paris Nord - RER

Paris Nord > Lille Europe - TGV Duplex, upstairs, first class)

Lille Europe > St Pancras - Class 373 (standard premier)

Kings Cross > Doncaster - Hull Trains Class 180 (standard class)

Doncaster > Swinton - Northern Class 144...

 

and I have to say, I found the Eurostar set to be much better than expected. Both were typically filthy on the outside, especially the front ends. But the interior seemed in fine condition, nothing broken or wear-worn, everything seemed to be working and in order. I couldn't see any major signs of bodywork issues on the outsides of the trains, no lines of rust or bubbling of paint on the power cars for example. It seems a big shame that they're being scrapped, but as has been said already, they were built for a specific purpose and if they're no longer needed for that, there's not really any other use for them, they aren't suited for many other uses.

 

I have to say though, the Eurostar and TGV trains were by far and away much better than anything else I travelled on, but the general standard of the French trains was much better I think than the UK ones, the ride quality especially was noticably poorer on the 180, though by no means bad. Even on classic lines in France, the TGV/E* units rode very smoothly.

 

The seats were VERY comfortable, even the standard class ones on TGV/Intercité services were better than their UK equivalents I'd say, the first class ones being like armchairs on wheels. OK, they might not be the most stylish, the moquette is maybe a little 1990s but hardly looked old fashioned or dated. On the TGV sets, the first class seats reclined electrically, the standard ones being manual, as are all of the ones on E*. I liked the big square design of seats, with wrap around headrests - the headrests being the main difference between the E* and TGV seats - and found them much better than some of the "stylish" new designs found on GWR and VTEC sets, for example, which look like they're trying waaay too hard to be cool.

 

Overall, I found the service and the trains to be of a decent standard, and from a passengers point of view, couldn't really find a problem with them. OK, I know there's a lot of financial considerations etc about refurbishing, scrapping, whatever, but I think its a shame that trains which are so much better than lots of what we have are going (potentially) for scrap.

[hellotojasonisaacs]

I do know that a small number of SNCF owned sets are modified with the ability to run on 1.5kv lines (correct me if I'm wrong) for services to Marseille and the Alps. I suspect these will be the sets that are retained, especially as one of them have already been refurbished.

[TomJ]

There are two ski trains each weekend from London. One goes on Friday evening and arrives early Saturday morning - the other leaves Saturday morning and arrives in the evening. Virtually all the package ski deals are done on a Saturday-Saturday basis hence why it only runs weekends. The overnight train has no sleeping facilities (standard coaches) but does effectively give you two extra days skiing. There is an increasing trend to long weekend ski breaks but I'm not sure here the train works so well - the popular resorts for those are the ones a short distance from Geneva or Innsbruck airports. Then you can leave work a bit early Friday and still be skiing Saturday morning.

 

The train is hugely popular and books out well in advance, especially peak holiday times. Once you start to factor in check in times, baggage collection and transfer to the resort the door to door time is pretty favourable. Bourg St Maurice is just a short taxi or bus ride from some of the best known resort (Les Arcs is directly linked by furnicular). And if you add in the inevitable delays at Chambery Airport it's much better! Then of course there's no silly rules on liquids or luggage, or a jobsworth telling you that a ski helmet can't go in your underfilled ski bag but instead you have to pay for another bag!!

 

I quite like the fact that the line into B-S-M is single track and the Eurostars look a bit ridiculous on a branch line. Seems a more extreme version of HSTs to Newquay

[Fat Controller]

There are two ski trains each weekend from London. One goes on Friday evening and arrives early Saturday morning - the other leaves Saturday morning and arrives in the evening. Virtually all the package ski deals are done on a Saturday-Saturday basis hence why it only runs weekends. The overnight train has no sleeping facilities (standard coaches) but does effectively give you two extra days skiing. There is an increasing trend to long weekend ski breaks but I'm not sure here the train works so well - the popular resorts for those are the ones a short distance from Geneva or Innsbruck airports. Then you can leave work a bit early Friday and still be skiing Saturday morning.

 

The train is hugely popular and books out well in advance, especially peak holiday times. Once you start to factor in check in times, baggage collection and transfer to the resort the door to door time is pretty favourable. Bourg St Maurice is just a short taxi or bus ride from some of the best known resort (Les Arcs is directly linked by furnicular). And if you add in the inevitable delays at Chambery Airport it's much better! Then of course there's no silly rules on liquids or luggage, or a jobsworth telling you that a ski helmet can't go in your underfilled ski bag but instead you have to pay for another bag!!

 

I quite like the fact that the line into B-S-M is single track and the Eurostars look a bit ridiculous on a branch line. Seems a more extreme version of HSTs to Newquay

Going by train means you avoid the horrendous delays over the last few miles to the ski stations- some of my French colleagues spent up to eight hours covering the last 30 kilometres or so by car back in February.

[pete_mcfarlane]

That was actually my implied starting point: clear the shell from everything and start from scratch. 

The problem with that approach is that sometimes clearing all the old gear out of the existing shell costs more than building a new shell. 

[Oakydoke]

I do know that a small number of SNCF owned sets are modified with the ability to run on 1.5kv lines (correct me if I'm wrong).......

They are no longer owned by SNCF.

Ownership of all the Class 373's, except the 3 three capitals sets transferred to and formerly used on SNCF's French domestic services, was transferred to the newly reformed Eurostar International in 2010.

[Dava]

Has anyone seen or got a photo of a 373 at Kingsbury yet? Do we know if it's arrived?

 

Dava

[Fat Controller]

Has anyone seen or got a photo of a 373 at Kingsbury yet? Do we know if it's arrived?

 

Dava

Someone posted that the move had been postponed a couple of days ago.

[Fat Controller]

They are no longer owned by SNCF.

Ownership of all the Class 373's, except the 3 three capitals sets transferred to and formerly used on SNCF's French domestic services, was transferred to the newly reformed Eurostar International in 2010.

A company which is majority-owned by SNCF:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurostar_International_Limited

[Reorte]

And then Leeds, which I think was the original plan but they started out with York because they hadn't been cleared to Leeds at the start.

 

I thought they looked rather fine in GNER livery - much better than Eurostar. And they were certainly a novelty to travel on.

 

Shame that's the closest we got to Eurostar services north of London...

That was the only time I've ever been on one, and I remember thinking that it seemed rather better than most other trains I'd been on at the time. Pity it was only between Wakefield and Leeds though, not exactly a lot of time to appreciate it!

[Coryton]

That was the only time I've ever been on one, and I remember thinking that it seemed rather better than most other trains I'd been on at the time. Pity it was only between Wakefield and Leeds though, not exactly a lot of time to appreciate it!

 

Indeed. Possibly the cheapest journey you could do on one.

 

In the late 80's it must have been one of the cheapest journeys you could do on an HST; 30p one way, 15p for children (off peak).

[pete_mcfarlane]

Indeed. Possibly the cheapest journey you could do on one.

 

In the late 80's it must have been one of the cheapest journeys you could do on an HST; 30p one way, 15p for children (off peak).

You can do Beeston-Nottingham for £2 on a HST if you time it right. 

[Zomboid]

Some of the short hops along the main line in Cornwall should be pretty cheap, and could be a HST ride.

As would Waverley to Haymarket (can you still do that by 91 & mk4? It's probably the cheapest 390 ride in the country, at least), or Torre - Torquay...

[jjb1970]

I remember doing Waverley to Haymarket moves all day in the 80's to get all the 47/7's and 26's/27's that were out working, it was good fun.

['CHARD]

I remember doing Waverley to Haymarket moves all day in the 80's to get all the 47/7's and 26's/27's that were out working, it was good fun.

 

New engine ned! 

[roythebus]

Speaking with a "close family member" who is currently doing some sort of railway degree course, it would appear there is an upsurge in railway parcel traffic. For instance, Amazon need another 12million sq.ft. of warehousing adjacent to railways for their express distribution. They're looking at "redundant" stock like HSTs which I understand are already being utilised overnight for express parcels traffic by EMT and could be converted for such when they're finished with as passenger stock. A similar view is being taken for the E* sets for high speed international parcels traffic, something the railways are particularly suited to.

 

Before you ask, there's little chance of redundant 442s being used for the same purpose as their range is rather limited in the 3rd rail area.

 

It would seem the boom in internet buying will see a big resurgence in rail express parcels. We want it NOW!

[Dave47549]

.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[black and decker boy]

Speaking with a "close family member" who is currently doing some sort of railway degree course, it would appear there is an upsurge in railway parcel traffic. For instance, Amazon need another 12million sq.ft. of warehousing adjacent to railways for their express distribution. They're looking at "redundant" stock like HSTs which I understand are already being utilised overnight for express parcels traffic by EMT and could be converted for such when they're finished with as passenger stock. A similar view is being taken for the E* sets for high speed international parcels traffic, something the railways are particularly suited to.

 

Before you ask, there's little chance of redundant 442s being used for the same purpose as their range is rather limited in the 3rd rail area.

 

It would seem the boom in internet buying will see a big resurgence in rail express parcels. We want it NOW!

It's all very low volume at present and the viability of trunk haul in bulk (or a trainload) seems questionable as there have been many trials done.

 

http://www.multimodal.org.uk/news/seafood-catches-express-train-london

 

I doubt converted E* or HSTs are the answer, those mk3 coaches wil be very expensive to convert due to their structural form. However, there will be loads of 100mph emu coming spare which could be quickly and cheaply converted and which would be low cost to run.