Eurostar scrapping class 373s

[sanspareil]

PS someone has just told me 8x 373 are to be retained and refurbished. There must be some very good reasons for retaining such a small non-standard fleet. I dont know but maybe there are issues clearing some of the non-3 capitals/Amsterdam routes for 374's? Maybe 373's to Bourg and Marseille only?

Edited September 21, 2016 by sanspareil

[5BarVT]

Only class 373 are cleared for Asford, so they need to be kept until something is done to allow the new trains to operate (no TPWS). The threat of withdrawing Ashfird stops is causing Kent CC to blow fuses.

 

Paul.

[Kelly]

I can remember as a teenager in the early 1970s being surprised to hear that Hymeks were being withdrawn and scrapped even though some were barely 10 years old, so 22 years isn't too bad an innings by comparison. Funny, it seems a long time ago when I made the power car masters for the Eurotunnel exhibition layouts, which must have been around the time they came out. Those models replaced the repainted TGVs they originally had (possibly with vac-formed power car shells?). They in turn were replaced with the Kato version when that arrived a few years later.

Same could be said for the class 41s, even the 42/43 didn't last very long, 52s either. All due to being non standard.

 

Then similar could be said for several of the br standard steam classes.

[Kelly]

?

Something to do with the pressures being in the tunnel and being worked very hard continuously. Whether true or not I've no idea.

[DavidB-AU]

Something to do with the pressures being in the tunnel and being worked very hard continuously. Whether true or not I've no idea.

The duckbill nose was supposedly designed to deflect a pressure wave away from the train.

 

Cheers

David

[amwells]

Something to do with the pressures being in the tunnel and being worked very hard continuously. Whether true or not I've no idea.

I think that the question might have been due to the suggestion that this was caused by 'running under the Thames' (rather than the English Channel....)

[Tim H]

Same could be said for the class 41s, even the 42/43 didn't last very long, 52s either. All due to being non standard.

 

Then similar could be said for several of the br standard steam classes.

 

22 years is also close to the average live of the class 25s, the 40s, the 50s, and the majority of locomotive-hauled Mk1 and Mk2 coaches.

[Mallard60022]

Have I missed something?

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/eurostar-unveils-refurbished-high-speed-train.html

Apologies if this has already been discussed but I'm just going out so no time to read the whole thread.

Phil

[Fat Controller]

Something to do with the pressures being in the tunnel and being worked very hard continuously. Whether true or not I've no idea.

Never heard that from HS1 or other industry sources- the Thames Tunnels are quite short, and to a generous loading gauge, so I can't see them causing a problem. Many of the trains using them will either be slowing down for, or starting away from Ebbsfleet, so won't be at full chat. Their Channel Tunnel crossings are made at 160 kph, with pressure-reducing ducts every 250 metres to lessen the 'piston' effect.

[brushman47544]

Have I missed something?

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/eurostar-unveils-refurbished-high-speed-train.html

Apologies if this has already been discussed but I'm just going out so no time to read the whole thread.

Phil

 

No. Those of the "old" Eurostar sets that are being retained (8 according to sanspareil above) are being refurbished, the rest are being binned.

[Tim H]

Do wonder about the logic behind the "half-and-half" approach here;refurbishing half the fleet and scrapping & replacing the other half. Is it purely because replacing the entire fleet needs more capital than is available, or does it represent a change of course after the bean-counters crunched the numbers and concluded refurbishment wasn't as cost-effective as first thought?

[Vecchio]

Would it be possible to take the coaches and use them as hauled sets? Apart from the length of these trains, they have fitted on the SR region of BR for years, and you could always just run half a set modified for use with a 67 or such?

I suppose the profile is the continental one - so the coaches are too wide for using them on other British lines. Besides that I personally find them rather uncomfortable. especially in the emergency exit areas the seats are all tilted downwards.They are tilt able upwards to allow faster evacuation - but this made them probably weaker so they bent downwards. This is probably different in the first - but as a good and cheap working engineer I always used the wood- (2nd) class....

[Joseph_Pestell]

I suppose the profile is the continental one - so the coaches are too wide for using them on other British lines. Besides that I personally find them rather uncomfortable. especially in the emergency exit areas the seats are all tilted downwards.They are tilt able upwards to allow faster evacuation - but this made them probably weaker so they bent downwards. This is probably different in the first - but as a good and cheap working engineer I always used the wood- (2nd) class....

Loading-gauge is not the issue, the Southern being as gauge-restricted as most parts of the BR network.

 

The problem with re-use is:

1) What sort of service would take these with a lot of wasted space in the driving car and first passenger car?

2) How would one get them to a maintenance centre as they are articulated and have to be lifted in their entirety?

[Edwin_m]

They ran to York for a couple of years around the turn of the century but had several problems:

- Too long for many of the platforms en route

- Poor dwell times

- Pantograph optimised for high speed routes and allegedly caused damage to the ECML OLE.  If no longer required to run on HS1, or perhaps only between Stratford and St Pancras, it could be replaced by a more suitable one. 

- These were the North of London sets, shorter formations with some technical differences to make them less incompatible with operation on the ECML and WCML.  I'm not sure if these sets are still around.  The main Three Capitals fleet didn't have safety approval to run under 25kV on Network Rail. 

- At the time they were based at North Pole, which is now converted to be the base for the GWR class 80x fleets.  If it is no longer capable of servicing Eurostars, I guess they could get to the current depot at Stratford via the HS1-ECML connection, although from Kings Cross I think they would have to reverse somewhere in the suburbs and again at St Pancras. 

[Horsetan]

Just like modern cars then !!! - A throw-away train !!!!

 

Mmmm, Bosch says it can still supply 1980s ECUs....

[phil-b259]

Only class 373 are cleared for Asford, so they need to be kept until something is done to allow the new trains to operate (no TPWS). The threat of withdrawing Ashfird stops is causing Kent CC to blow fuses.

 

Paul.

 

Moves are well underway to fit the international platforms and approaches at Ashford with the KVB system of train protection so as to allow the new Eurostar (and other similarly HS2 compliant) stock to cal there. Ironically however, most of the money came from the very body the UK voted to leave back in the Spring (via some sort of grant towards rail interoperability across the EU IIRC)

Edited September 22, 2016 by phil-b259

[Coryton]

They ran to York for a couple of years around the turn of the century but had several problems:

-

 

And then Leeds, which I think was the original plan but they started out with York because they hadn't been cleared to Leeds at the start.

 

I thought they looked rather fine in GNER livery - much better than Eurostar. And they were certainly a novelty to travel on.

 

Shame that's the closest we got to Eurostar services north of London...

[Coryton]

Re-engineering is nothing new and BR and the successor ROSCOs have been quite active in through life upgrades of existing rolling stock. A good example is the new Hitachi traction package fitted to some of the Networker units.

 

And of course sometimes the reverse has happened, where new trains have been fitted with components from older trains, e.g. the 442s (traction motors and control gear) or Northern Irish 450s (engines and - if Wikipedia is correct - traction motors and old Mk1 coach underframes(!) )

[Hesperus]

I think it makes sense to keep a few refurbuished sets.

 

I'm not sure how many are in service but with another 10 as spares they can run extra services to more remote destinations at peak times of year.

I'm sure they have run ski trains to the alps in the past but couldn't send many due to lack of stock.  With an extra 10 sets they could send at least two a day down there.

 

Now you are going to tell me that there aren't spare paths through the tunnel for this?  Well the serices could run London - Paris - The Alps in place of a London - Paris service.  Now you might not need ten sets to run these extra services but availability is going to be lower on older trains and it's not like they can unscrap a few more.

 

Why not just build more of the new trains?  There wouldn't be a buisiness case for new stock that wasn't working constantly.

 

 

We often complain that rail operators don't have spare stock to run the special trains we used to see on BR but there is spare stock on Network rail and has been on the network since the end of BR.  Unfortunately E* can't just hire a rake of maroon mk2's when it wants to put on an extra service.

[Glorious NSE]

I suppose the profile is the continental one - so the coaches are too wide for using them on other British lines. 

 

They wouldn't be able to rail them to Kingsbury if that were so...  

 

Anyhow, that sounds like a cue for a nostalgiafest:

 

[25901]

Go

 

And then Leeds, which I think was the original plan but they started out with York because they hadn't been cleared to Leeds at the start.

 

I thought they looked rather fine in GNER livery - much better than Eurostar. And they were certainly a novelty to travel on.

 

Shame that's the closest we got to Eurostar services north of London...

 

Got on one in Bradford of all places

[DavidB-AU]

So what would be the problem with, say, reducing them to 10-11 coach sets (not half sets) and replacing the pantographs? Slightly shorter than the NoL sets and with a single bar-buffet in the set.

 

Cheers

David

[Oakydoke]

 ....I'm not sure how many are in service but with another 10 as spares they can run extra services to more remote destinations at peak times of year.

I'm sure they have run ski trains to the alps in the past but couldn't send many due to lack of stock.  With an extra 10 sets they could send at least two a day down there....

I stand to be corrected, but I've read that there are only 5 full sets that are equipped to run on the French domestic 1,500V DC network.

If that's the case, then as I understand it, these will be the only ones that have been able to run on classic lines, off the LGV network, to the Alps and south of France.

[Gareth 73]

They wouldn't be able to rail them to Kingsbury if that were so...

Anyhow, that sounds like a cue for a nostalgiafest:

Thats not quite true either. When they run to kingsbury they are running as X loads and can only do 20mph thro Wilnicote station and the opposite line has to be blocked. So could be a tad annoying on a regular service. The time they are booked to reach kingsbury isnt the best time with other services into and out of the yard so there may be some late running so perhaps more photo ops ☺ Edited September 23, 2016 by Gareth 73

[Fat Controller]

Regarding the ski trains; these have been a regular feature since the early days, with two outbound workings on a Friday evening. One returns during the day on Saturday, the other arrives back in the UK at about 05:00 on Sunday morning. This one quite often stands on the line between the tunnel and Dolland's Moor for an hour or so, if there are engineering works on HS1.

I doubt that there's scope for a daily working, as most bookings for skiing holidays, like those for gites and villas, seem to be done on a Saturday evening- Saturday morning basis.