Smileyjon Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 I'm sure this is an age old issue but: These are driving me nuts. Sometimes the frog is live but more often than not it's dead. Although they all appeared to work when first installed (after loads of fiddling of course !) The installation tolerances seem very restrictive (not helped by only have 2 round holes . . would slots help.) and once installed are then almost impossible to move that half millimetre if needed. And very difficult to see too as the little spring masks it slightly ! There also seems to be some changes in colour across the metal contact surface, could this be the problem . . and is there a way of cleaning it ? and finally (although all my little rods are now cut to length) would they perform better if the baseboard thickness was increased thereby allowing the longer rod to flex. My baseboard is 6mm. Please help guys because this is slowly destroying the pleasure of running and building a model railway. Thanks in advance Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Hi All Seep PM range motors are notorious for their need to be fixed 100% correctly. They need to be exactly in line with the points moving stretcher bar above and centred to the point too. The use of the converted cloths peg (Search this site for the idea) and also holding the point blades central will help to ensure the switch contacts make both ways. Heres the link to making the Seep alinement peg http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/15405-mounting-point-motors-headache-free/ If the motor is slightly out one way there is a risk of the contact not making in one direction! The contact (Which is somewhat poor!) is no more than a washer pushed down onto the PCB by a spring and the washer bridges the PCB copper tracks to make connection one way or the other between F and D or E tags. The switch mechanism can be cleaned with a squirt of spray Electrolub or other spray contact cleaner fluids. Edit to add link URL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 A small amount of adjustment is possible by bending the actuator arm. This may be necessary either parallel to or perpendicular to the rails. Although I got mine to work with a 6mm baseboard, with the track a couple of mm above that, I think it would be better to use standoffs to increase the vertical distance as the actuator arm flexes a little and this would allow the switch to be further "home" in either setting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smileyjon Posted October 6, 2016 Author Share Posted October 6, 2016 Many many thanks to both Brian and Edwin ! I've been fiddling with them for hours now . . . sometime they work, but sometimes they don't unless I jiggle the motor or even just touch the point itself. Just so frustrating. I cannot use a bigger standoff as I'd need new motors (worth a thought though) as I've already cut off the actuator rods 'cos they worked fine when installed and tested with a multimeter. My other option is to see if there's a way of reinstating the previously cut off frog links underneath (any thoughts guys ?) and trust in rail to rail contact which works fine on all my points using PM1's ! I will try the cleaning fluid next. Silly design in some ways . . you have to cut the little power link underneath, you then have to bond the point to the bed/baseboard, fit the point motor, cut off the actuator arm and it there's a problem there's no going back ! Or I could dig out all the dodgy points, spend £120 on new ones and stick with Pm1's ? ? As a last thought . . . . is there an under baseboard motor that is idiot-proof ? AAaaaaaaagh. So frustrating eh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartynJPearson Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 If you do decide to move away from using the switch in the point motor, rather than abandoning them completely, you might like to consider having some sort of microswitch activated by the movement of the actuator rod. In non-scenic areas, I have used them on the surface, with the tie bar activating the switch, toyed with the idea of some sort of frame allowing me to mount a microswitch under (or over if you've tipped the board upside down to work on!) under the point motor. One thing I can rule out is gluing the microswitch directly to the coils of the point motor - they are covered in something that is more like insulation tape and hence is not permanent or strong enough to hold the switch in place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Idiot proof? like that one :-) The Peco PL10 fits directly to the points underside, but then a large hole needs cutting in the baseboard to accommodate the motor. It can have the PL13 or better PL15 switch bonded to it. Surface motors are fairly simple to fit but none todate have built in switches, though a micro switch can be fitted to the oposite side of the point and is operated by the points moving stretcher bar. Or wire a Gaugemaster GM500 latching relay unit into the motors three wires. Perhaps the simpler to use motors with twin built in change over switches are the Cobalt ip or the Tortoise. But their operating control is from conventional switches rather than passing contact or sprung to centre off switches used with solenoids.. Idiot proof? like that one :-) The Peco PL10 fits directly to the points underside, but then a large hole needs cutting in the baseboard to accommodate the motor. It can have the PL13 or better PL15 switch bonded to it. Surface motors are fairly simple to fit but none todate have built in switches, though a micro switch can be fitted to the oposite side if the point and is sifted by the points moving stretcher bar. Or wire a Gaugemaster GM500 latching relay unit into the motors three wires. Perhaps the simpler to use motors with twin built in change over switches are the Cobalt ip or the Tortoise. But their operating control is from conventional switches rather than passing contact or sprung to centre off switches used with solenoids.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 I've wondered if the actuator rod could be re-extended after cutting using brass tube. If the tube that fits round the rod is too big to go through the tiebar then it could be used as a joining piece to a new piece of rod the same diameter as the original. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
28XX Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Yes this works. The actuator rod is steel, so epoxy is the way to go assembling the new rod to tube to old rod. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Yes this works. The actuator rod is steel, so epoxy is the way to go assembling the new rod to tube to old rod. You can solder to steel if you use the right flux. Carr's black label will do it but this is very corrosive so you must clean it off thoroughly afterwards. I generally use the flux to tin steel so that it is effectively tinplate - clean up and then you can solder to the steel with no further need for such a powerful flux as you will be soldering to solder. That might help you to extend the operating rod with a soldered brass tube collar. Hope that's useful. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
28XX Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Understood. But this is a functional item, and epoxy is less operations so quicker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Surface motors are fairly simple to fit but none todate have built in switches, though a micro switch can be fitted to the oposite side if the point and is sifted by the points moving stretcher bar. Or wire a Gaugemaster GM500 latching relay unit into the motors three wires. I've made my own bases for attaching microswitches to Peco point motors for surface mounting. This is the Mk1 version that wasn't rigid enough, so I'm using the same components with added strengthening. The parts were cut on my Silhouette Portrait, but could be cut by hand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Understood. But this is a functional item, and epoxy is less operations so quicker. Epoxy will work so it's a matter of choice. Soldering is pretty well instant (apart from any cleaning up) whereas epoxy will take time to cure. Two other points - soldering is very strong provided it is done properly - and I have known epoxy joints to fail on metal - and solder joints can always be dis-assembled should you need to. But go ahead and use the method you are happier with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bescotbeast Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 I'm sure this is an age old issue but: These are driving me nuts. Sometimes the frog is live but more often than not it's dead. Although they all appeared to work when first installed (after loads of fiddling of course !) The installation tolerances seem very restrictive (not helped by only have 2 round holes . . would slots help.) and once installed are then almost impossible to move that half millimetre if needed. And very difficult to see too as the little spring masks it slightly ! There also seems to be some changes in colour across the metal contact surface, could this be the problem . . and is there a way of cleaning it ? and finally (although all my little rods are now cut to length) would they perform better if the baseboard thickness was increased thereby allowing the longer rod to flex. My baseboard is 6mm. Please help guys because this is slowly destroying the pleasure of running and building a model railway. Thanks in advance Jon This probably explains the issues I've been having with 2 SEEP point motors in my yard, I've checked and fiddled with the Frog feed but can't get my Class 08 to run through them without stalling, which takes the fun out of shunting wagons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I had a couple of old (10 yrs plus) Seep PM4's which failed, discovered the small springs which press the washer to the PCB were steel wire springs which had rusted and snapped, probably as a result of flux contamination when originally having wires soldered to the terminals. Newer ones appear to use brass springs. As others have said these motors really do need to be centered correctly and given a sparing squirt of contact cleaner occasionally (although I have found WD-40 seems to do the job just fine). Hattons do their own solenoid motors now, which look similar-ish to the Peco ones but have the advantage that they can be screwed direct to the baseboard (screws and actuating pin extension are provided with the motor), they also have a crank fitted for above board fitting. They don't have an electrical switch built in but a microswitch could easily be added and activated by the crank arm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smileyjon Posted October 12, 2016 Author Share Posted October 12, 2016 All terrific advice . . . thank you to everyone's thoughts. I have just tried mounting a seep further from the point with a 1 inch block of timber with a large hole in the centre. This gives me around 28mm of 'play' in the actuator rod and it seems to allow a full travel across the seep unit and . . touch wood is far more successful. Time will tell. I've also purchased a Peco assembly and a Hattons one . . . . both look promising. I did try extending my cut off rods. The brass tube link reduced flexibility and I'm not proficient enough to try soldering an extension . . . these motors will be used elsewhere on the layout where live frogs aren't used. Thanks again guys Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bescotbeast Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I fixed my own frog feed issue by using a spare microswitch that I'd got lying about, frog is fed and the Jocko runs through without stalling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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