'New Colletts from Old'

[HowardGWR]

Aha!  (to both replies).  Yes the MJT  type shanks are 'well thin', aren't they, even for round shanks?  At least the Slaters system ones preserve that prototype emulation of both shape and operation.

 

I'm prompted to ponder what radius of curve demands buffer springing, or whether one could get away with fixed buffers but a very small gap between two coaches'  buffers.  I'm thinking 4 foot minimum curves here.   

Edited February 24, 2017 by HowardGWR

[lofty1966]

Quick update for those who think I might be slacking.

I took some time out and built and painted a Parkside Horsebox , a Ratio Iron Mink and three Ratio Open C Tube wagons.

 

I have started lining and lettering using a mix of modelmaster and HMRS pressfix.

HMRS are driving me mad as they keep coming apart when trying to slide the backing paper away and you have to reset each individual letter. Very Frustrating!

Also I am pretty sure I have cocked up on the height of the brown on the E116's so no room for correct position of coach numbers

Edited March 5, 2017 by lofty1966

[HowardGWR]

I wondered what was taking you so much time!  :-)

 

 As we have hardly any end-on close-up photos of the shirt button era, what do you think of oval vs round buffers? 

 

This is very impressive progress, congratulations.  

 

The 70 footers are so elegant aren't they?

Edited February 25, 2017 by HowardGWR

[Horsetan]

....The 70 footers are so elegant aren't they?

 

I can't quite get over how long they are.

[lofty1966]

I can't quite get over how long they are.

A scale 70ft

Sorry. Couldn't resist

Edited February 25, 2017 by lofty1966

[HowardGWR]

A scale 70ft

Sorry. Couldn't resist

And the buffers Lofty1966?  Did I get it right that you are modelling the shirt button period?

[lofty1966]

And the buffers Lofty1966? Did I get it right that you are modelling the shirt button period?

I put round buffers on mine.

Comet promo pix show earlier liveries with them.

MAJ kits with 1934 livery supply oval ones so I probably have fitted incorrectly but in Russells appendix vol 2 the H28 is shown in 1936 with round buffers.

Its a minefield

[HowardGWR]

Just had another look at the D95 roof.  The new Hornby has differing length handrail lengths, whereas the ones on the Comet page, that you stick on the roof  to mark the drilling positions for the handrails, vents and tank filler, are equal length.  Not only that, but the cross roof beading positions are different, accordingly, because the handrail inserts occur at the beading edges.    Needless perhaps to add that the Railroad beading (nomenclature?) was different too.  I wonder which is correct?  Hornby measured the one at Didcot IIRC. 

 

Pity I already drilled them.  Still, good old filler available, if needed.

 

One other thing: I estimate the end footsteps as about 9" wide, perhaps 3" high.  Here is a close up of the ones on the E132 at Bewdley.

 

http://www.gw-svr-a.org.uk/images/end_700px.jpg

 

Also shewn is the gangway support bracket.

 

Mine looked a bit wide initially, having put the teeny bits of  L shape plasticard on.   Worst is, some of mine were too small so they will be replaced, (if 9" is correct).  Is it, anyone know?     

Edited March 1, 2017 by HowardGWR

[K14]

Just had another look at the D95 roof.  The new Hornby has differing length handrail lengths, whereas the ones on the Comet page, that you stick on the roof  to mark the drilling positions for the handrails, vents and tank filler, are equal length.  Not only that, but the cross roof beading positions are different, accordingly, because the handrail inserts occur at the beading edges.    Needless perhaps to add that the Railroad beading (nomenclature?) was different too.  I wonder which is correct?  Hornby measured the one at Didcot IIRC. 

 

Pity I already drilled them.  Still, good old filler available, if needed.

 

One other thing: I estimate the end footsteps as about 9" wide, perhaps 3" high.  Here is a close up of the ones on the E132 at Bewdley.

 

http://www.gw-svr-a.org.uk/images/end_700px.jpg

 

Also shewn is the gangway support bracket.

 

Mine looked a bit wide initially, having put the teeny bits of  L shape plasticard on.   Worst is, some of mine were too small so they will be replaced, (if 9" is correct).  Is it, anyone know?     

 

End steps:—

Tread = 9” x 4-7/8”,

Upstand = 2.5” (from face of tread)

Corner Radius = 1” o.n.o

 

Pretty certain that this is a 'standard' size carried over from Dean - I can vouch that the end steps from  K.14 933 (1898) fitted C.74 1289 (1937) without any modification

 

As to handrails, don't have any info on a D.95, but can for D.86/D.91 and E.129.

 

78229 Lot 1335 Jan 1924 (D.86/D.91):— 5' 10-1/4" over the fourth compartment and 7' 4" over the Guard's compartment. The feet are screwed through the butt strip.

From the Van end, the panel lengths are:— 7' 8-5/8", 7' 4", 7' 4" (G), 5' 10-1/4", 5' 10-1/4", 5' 10-1/4", 5' 10-1/4", 5' 10-1/4", 6' 9-1/8"

 

76495 Lot 1355 Mar 1925 (E.129):— both handrails are 6' 1-1/4" & sit over the fourth & seventh compartments. spaced 1' 9" either side of the centreline. Screwed through the butt strips.

From the Van end, the panel lengths are:— 6' 10-3/4", 6' 3-3/8" (G), 6' 1-1/4" (3rd), 6' 1-1/4" (3rd), 7' 7-1/4" (1st), 6' 1-1/4" (3rd), 6' 1-1/4" (3rd), 6' 1-1/4" (3rd), 6' 10-3/8" (3rd),

 

The butt strips coincide with the compartment partitions, so will vary between Thirds & Compos. In the Van, the joint is over a roof hoop.

 

Can't say where Hornby measured one, but it wasn't Didcot. There are two preserved D.95s - 5102 at Llangollen & 5131 at Williton - both unrestored,

 

Pete S.

[lofty1966]

And the buffers Lofty1966? Did I get it right that you are modelling the shirt button period?

I mix n'match with Rule 1 invoked.

Coaching stock (built by me) is mostly shirtbutton as its single lined.

[81C]

I found a cheap bargain diner to upgrade/destroy on fleebay it's in a tatty box and it's in good condition once it arrives an order for Comet parts will follow i'm looking at the possibility of making two 70 footers out of the last 3 sitting in the scrap box I've got to mock up a chassis on bogies to test for clearance on the platforms. 

Once I can pose the coaches on the layout (covered for winter) that are done I'll post some photo's.

 

 

Edit I've been working on a full brake today making up and attaching  the hand rails there is a tool which is ideal for doing this it's a Bill Bedford handrail bending jig bought from Eileens Emporium (possible source) 

Edited March 2, 2017 by 81C

[Coach bogie]

With the roof handrails you can add variety. Many were built with a a pair of single handrails in the centre line of the roof. By the 1930's, to prevent injury whilst affixing roof boards (health and safety even then), the single was replaced by the more familiar doubles. Replacement was not overnight and there were still examples in the late thirties with single, centre line handrails.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Taz]

There are photos in the Russell books of coaches in the 50s and still with the single centre line handrails

[HowardGWR]

End steps:—

Tread = 9” x 4-7/8”,

Upstand = 2.5” (from face of tread)

Corner Radius = 1” o.n.o

 

Pretty certain that this is a 'standard' size carried over from Dean - I can vouch that the end steps from  K.14 933 (1898) fitted C.74 1289 (1937) without any modification

 

As to handrails, don't have any info on a D.95, but can for D.86/D.91 and E.129.

 

78229 Lot 1335 Jan 1924 (D.86/D.91):— 5' 10-1/4" over the fourth compartment and 7' 4" over the Guard's compartment. The feet are screwed through the butt strip.

From the Van end, the panel lengths are:— 7' 8-5/8", 7' 4", 7' 4" (G), 5' 10-1/4", 5' 10-1/4", 5' 10-1/4", 5' 10-1/4", 5' 10-1/4", 6' 9-1/8"

 

76495 Lot 1355 Mar 1925 (E.129):— both handrails are 6' 1-1/4" & sit over the fourth & seventh compartments. spaced 1' 9" either side of the centreline. Screwed through the butt strips.

From the Van end, the panel lengths are:— 6' 10-3/4", 6' 3-3/8" (G), 6' 1-1/4" (3rd), 6' 1-1/4" (3rd), 7' 7-1/4" (1st), 6' 1-1/4" (3rd), 6' 1-1/4" (3rd), 6' 1-1/4" (3rd), 6' 10-3/8" (3rd),

 

The butt strips coincide with the compartment partitions, so will vary between Thirds & Compos. In the Van, the joint is over a roof hoop.

 

Can't say where Hornby measured one, but it wasn't Didcot. There are two preserved D.95s - 5102 at Llangollen & 5131 at Williton - both unrestored,

 

Pete S.

Apologies, I meant they measured the C54 at Didcot and of course Didcot doesn't have a D95, as you point out.     How wide are are the 'butt strips'? ( -something else I've learned, thanks).  So if you have the panels correct length, you can get the rails correct.  Thanks also to Coach_bogie, as I had always wondered about that.  I think that anyone who wants to model 30s examples has a potential problem, as there is this dearth of photos between works photos and BR era, as Taz points out.  Useful though in this case, as one could have either arrangement in, say, 1933, or 1953, without necessarily being incorrect . 

 

On a new subject,  I  have made a recent and unwelcome discovery.  I had the altered Railroad underframe and the Comet one side by side on the work bench and noticed that the enlarged bogie pivot holes in the former were closer together than the ones I had drilled in the latter.  I had drilled the Comet underframe at the 43' 6" marks, which is correct for the Collett gangwayed 57' standard types.  The Hornby railroads, however,  are at 41' bogie centres    -aargh! The photo is, from top, Comet, middle is railroad unaltered, under is railroad narrowed and redrilled oval hole to circular one.

 

 

 

So those holes are 30" too close and thus need to be moved, for accuracy, 5mm each (1' 3"), outwards, which makes an unwelcome overlap with the existing Hornby moulding.  If you remember, Taz had shaved off part of these mouldings to make the heights correct, and I gratefully copied this on mine.   I was also planning to use the Hornby bogies.  They aren't bad and I was planning just to make the bolster spring mouldings 'a bit more like it'  - either coil for the first ones or later the more common volute versions.  I believe the Railroad people modelled from the first works photos which had coil springs.  I don't know why Swindon changed them on the 7' plate bogies to volute.  They kept the coil ones on the 9 foot plate bogies..

 

I am pondering what to do now.  Pretend I didn't notice?  

 

Update:  See replies below for explanation of why the Hornby ones are how they are and the consequences and the note on the offset bogie pivots of their 7 foot bogies that compensate for this, in order to get the wheels in the right place!!

Edited March 4, 2017 by HowardGWR

[HowardGWR]

I found a cheap bargain diner to upgrade/destroy on fleebay it's in a tatty box and it's in good condition once it arrives an order for Comet parts will follow i'm looking at the possibility of making two 70 footers out of the last 3 sitting in the scrap box I've got to mock up a chassis on bogies to test for clearance on the platforms. 

Once I can pose the coaches on the layout (covered for winter) that are done I'll post some photo's.

 

 

Edit I've been working on a full brake today making up and attaching  the hand rails there is a tool which is ideal for doing this it's a Bill Bedford handrail bending jig bought from Eileens Emporium (possible source) 

That's interesting.  I was planning to ask Lofty1966 what he would do for 70' underframes.  Comet don't do them, do they?

[Pete S]

UW1 is the Comet ref..

 

Hope this helps.

 

Peter.

[K14]

How wide are are the 'butt strips'?

 

 

 

So if you have the panels correct length, you can get the rails correct.

Indeed. For an E.127 (Lots 1351 & 1373) the spacing is:—

 

4' 11-1/8" (Vestibule & 1st class lav.), 7' 7-1/4" (1st), 7' 7-1/4" (H)(1st), 7' 7-1/4" (1st), 7' 7-1/4" (1st), 6' 1-1/4" (H)(3rd), 6' 1-1/4" (3rd), 6' 1-1/4" (3rd), 4' 6-5/8" (Vestibule & 3rd class lav.)

 

P.

[lofty1966]

Apologies, I meant they measured the C54 at Didcot and of course Didcot doesn't have a D95, as you point out. How wide are are the 'butt strips'? ( -something else I've learned, thanks). So if you have the panels correct length, you can get the rails correct. Thanks also to Coach_bogie, as I had always wondered about that. I think that anyone who wants to model 30s examples has a potential problem, as there is this dearth of photos between works photos and BR era, as Taz points out. Useful though in this case, as one could have either arrangement in, say, 1933, or 1953, without necessarily being incorrect .

 

On a new subject, I have made a recent and unwelcome discovery. I had the altered Railroad underframe and the Comet one side by side on the work bench and noticed that the enlarged bogie pivot holes in the former were closer together than the ones I had drilled in the latter. I had drilled the Comet underframe at the 43' 6" marks, which is correct for the Collett gangwayed 57' standard types. The Hornby railroads, however, are at 41' bogie centres -aargh! The photo is, from top, Comet, middle is railroad unaltered, under is railroad narrowed and redrilled oval hole to circular one.

 

SDC12097.JPG

 

 

So those holes are 30" too close and thus need to be moved, for accuracy, 5mm each (1' 3"), outwards, which makes an unwelcome overlap with the existing Hornby moulding. If you remember, Taz had shaved off part of these mouldings to make the heights correct, and I gratefully copied this on mine. I was also planning to use the Hornby bogies. They aren't bad and I was planning just to make the bolster spring mouldings 'a bit more like it' - either coil for the first ones or later the more common volute versions. I believe the Railroad people modelled from the first works photos which had coil springs. I don't know why Swindon changed them on the 7' plate bogies to volute. They kept the coil ones on the 9 foot plate bogies..

 

I am pondering what to do now. Pretend I didn't notice?

Hornby's Railroad 7ft bogies pivot is offset so fitting one of their 9ft ones is fairly straightforward.

[Taz]

.....

 

On a new subject,  I  have made a recent and unwelcome discovery.  I had the altered Railroad underframe and the Comet one side by side on the work bench and noticed that the enlarged bogie pivot holes in the former were closer together than the ones I had drilled in the latter.  I had drilled the Comet underframe at the 43' 6" marks, which is correct for the Collett gangwayed 57' standard types.  The Hornby railroads, however,  are at 41' bogie centres    -aargh! The photo is, from top, Comet, middle is railroad unaltered, under is railroad narrowed and redrilled oval hole to circular one.

 

SDC12097.JPG

 

 

So those holes are 30" too close and thus need to be moved, for accuracy, 5mm each (1' 3"), outwards, which makes an unwelcome overlap with the existing Hornby moulding.  If you remember, Taz had shaved off part of these mouldings to make the heights correct, and I gratefully copied this on mine.   I was also planning to use the Hornby bogies.  They aren't bad and I was planning just to make the bolster spring mouldings 'a bit more like it'  - either coil for the first ones or later the more common volute versions.  I believe the Railroad people modelled from the first works photos which had coil springs.  I don't know why Swindon changed them on the 7' plate bogies to volute.  They kept the coil ones on the 9 foot plate bogies..

 

I am pondering what to do now.  Pretend I didn't notice?

 

Ah, I never noticed that. I don't think I'm going to do anything about it. One of the reasons mine are taking so long to finish is because I find these conversions a bit of a faff compared to a full brass kit. So I won't be doing any more conversions after these. I can live with the inaccuracy.

[nigel newling]

You should note that the Hornby 7ft bogies have their pin off-centre to get the wheels back where they belong.

The 41ft centres suit the H25 - but for one of those you would need bogies with their pin in the centre of their wheelbase.

 

(Sorry Lofty - didn't do an F5 first :-))

Edited March 3, 2017 by nigel newling

[HowardGWR]

UW1 is the Comet ref..

 

Hope this helps.

 

Peter.

Thanks Pete_S for correcting my misapprehension.  I've looked at the Comet lists and see that they do do 70 foot sides for some diagrams (which I thought previously they didn't).  The sides codes are W1 - W5 and cover the diagrams C46, H15, D84, D83 and H26-9 respectively.

Very useful types.

 

The Bogie pivot placing.  Thanks very much for above replies.  Looks like I would have to use the Hornby bogies to save re-drilling (but the right way around!!! - I had not noticed the offset, whoops!!!) and will do some maths to satisfy myself I am doing it right.  I've altered my posting so future readers are directed to these helpful answers.  RMWeb is certainly coming up trumps. 

Edited March 4, 2017 by HowardGWR

[HowardGWR]

Ah, I never noticed that. I don't think I'm going to do anything about it. One of the reasons mine are taking so long to finish is because I find these conversions a bit of a faff compared to a full brass kit. So I won't be doing any more conversions after these. I can live with the inaccuracy.

Hopefully Taz, you've seen the helpful replies, putting me right.  I had a look at your blog and I see the offset of the bogies themselves must have been apparent to you, as you fitted the bogies the right way around!  I never spotted it but that's me I am afraid.  :-(

 

I too have reached a view on these RTR mods, but I am not so disheartened by what has been revealed.  Looking at the Comet parts, my view is that one has to do a lot of fettling with these too, so  at the end, one has to wonder whether scratch building in some cases might not have been as easy.  The underframe parts do shorten the time taken, it;s true, but they do need attention, such as the struts, depending on one's accuracy requirements.  It is good that Comet adopted the parts method of sales, as one can pick and choose according to choices.  If we consider Lofty1966's very brave and admired cut and shut projects, he has at least the benefit of those 70 foot items, should he choose to use those.  Also my described mods are plainly not considered needed by others, so each person has to make a choice about what they consider should be done.  I am enjoying my fiddling anyway.   

Edited March 4, 2017 by HowardGWR

[lofty1966]

Hopefully Taz, you've seen the helpful replies, putting me right. I had a look at your blog and I see the offset of the bogies themselves must have been apparent to you, as you fitted the bogies the right way around! I never spotted it but that's me I am afraid. :-(

 

I too have reached a view on these RTR mods, but I am not so disheartened by what has been revealed. Looking at the Comet parts, my view is that one has to do a lot of fettling with these too, so at the end, one has to wonder whether scratch building in some cases might not have been as easy. The underframe parts do shorten the time taken, it;s true, but they do need attention, such as the struts, depending on one's accuracy requirements. It is good that Comet adopted the parts method of sales, as one can pick and choose according to choices. If we consider Lofty1966's very brave and admired cut and shut projects, he has at least the benefit of those 70 foot items, should he choose to use those. Also my described mods are plainly not considered needed by others, so each person has to make a choice about what they consider should be done. I am enjoying my fiddling anyway.

If money was no object I think I would have gone the full Comet kit route (actually if I had the finances I would get a professional to build and paint them)!

I quite surprised myself on how the chassis/underframe actually worked out.

I only started on these conversion projects after studying Taz and Rovex efforts which inspired me to try , so thank you Gents.

HowardGWR you should be proud of your efforts , coming at things in a different way and experimenting with details I hadn't considered.

I love the way we all come to the modelling table with totally different approaches!

Keep up the good work !

[Coach bogie]

One of the reasons mine are taking so long to finish is because I find these conversions a bit of a faff compared to a full brass kit. So I won't be doing any more conversions after these. I can live with the inaccuracy.

I feel the same way. Although I have produced several plastic shell based cut and shuts,  I reckon I can solder up a body shell in less time, and brass sides can be cut in seconds with sharp scissors, though the end result is usually more expensive in metal.

 

Again I take my hat off to Lofty and others with their skill in producing such variety of stock from just two basic diagram of shells.

 

The Comet 70ft stock is very useful as it can be cut and shut into many things. (Swindon appear to have designed the 57ft stock using a set of South Wales stock plans and a sheet of tracing paper). Before I had access to a set of BSL artics, I had cut and shut Comet 70ft stock in to the artic triplet set. Ex Comet sides, shortened Comet underframe, BSL bow ends and roof, Modified Blacksmith bogies.

 

To see if they can work/where to cut. I usually scan a a set of Comet sides and then cut and shut electronically using photoshop (well it is cheaper and more productive than going out at lunchtime at work)

 

I used the 70ft Comet brake sides and a C62 recessed door handles sides to produce a three compartment D111. There are 4 sections in this one plus the recessed guards door.

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[lofty1966]

I feel the same way. Although I have produced several plastic shell based cut and shuts, I reckon I can solder up a body shell in less time, and brass sides can be cut in seconds with sharp scissors, though the end result is usually more expensive in metal.

 

Again I take my hat off to Lofty and others with their skill in producing such variety of stock from just two basic diagram of shells.

 

The Comet 70ft stock is very useful as it can be cut and shut into many things. (Swindon appear to have designed the 57ft stock using a set of South Wales stock plans and a sheet of tracing paper). Before I had access to a set of BSL artics, I had cut and shut Comet 70ft stock in to the artic triplet set. Ex Comet sides, shortened Comet underframe, BSL bow ends and roof, Modified Blacksmith bogies.

artic 1.jpg artic 2.jpg artic 3.jpg

 

To see if they can work/where to cut. I usually scan a a set of Comet sides and then cut and shut electronically using photoshop (well it is cheaper and more productive than going out at lunchtime at work)

 

I used the 70ft Comet brake sides and a C62 recessed door handles sides to produce a three compartment D111. There are 4 sections in this one plus the recessed guards door.

 

D111.jpg d111b.jpg

 

Mike Wiltshire

Some lovely items there Mike.

Can I be written into your 'Will' should you suddenly and unexpectedly keel over?