fezza Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 We were talking last night about the rather odd spread of 'budget' rtr releases. It seems that manufacturers are attempting a thin spread of very different releases across different periods and regions. Is this wise, especially in what is still quite a small market? I have started off with a couple of Terriers and two Hudswell Clarkes for a light railway theme. I already have 'too many locos' but the nature of new releases will make it difficult for me to give rtr manufacturers any more of my money even if I wanted to do so. The Victory is too big, the Peckett is mainly a dock engine, the 08 is too late the GWR pannier is not appropriate. Would it not be better for a manufacturer wanting to maximise sales to produce a series of engines that could run together - so maybe a series of GWR/SR tanks engines found in the West Country OR small steam industrials OR small 1960s/70s BR diesels. It wouldn't please everyone but it would allow people to build up a related collection and encourage repeat/return purchases. This is not intended as a moan - we were just wondering about the marketing logic. People might be more tempted into 0 Gauge if they knew there would be a series of releases that could be run together in the same place/period. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 I think its a case of the manufacturers trying to cover the gamut with inevitably limited resources. They're not going to please everyone and I hope they have done their marketing homework. I was puzzled to hear of the Hattons sponsored Heljan pacifics, I should have thought smaller locos would have greater and wider appeal. It seems to me there are two segments to O gauge - small indoor layout and the garden variety. I've no idea how this breaks down though. For me, I'm fairly happy that I can run the Cl 08, Cl 15 and Jinty together and I'll just have to see what happens. In my 4mm days I was primarily LMS, but for O gauge I decided on BR(E) 1962, driven by availability of models. After seeing Dapol prove the point about reasonably priced O gauge RTR, I would expect and hope that Bachmann and Hornby join in. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railwayrod Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 I agree with you John that it would be nice if Bachmann and Hornby were to move into O gauge to give us even more variety to choose from. I think that as in 4mm scale the Great Western is catered for best of all at the moment with Minerva's and Dapol's Panniers plus the forthcoming Prairie from Heljan and of course the range of diesels from Heljan - Warship, Westerns, etc. All of these could and did run together albeit for a shortish period. I am sure that manufacturers do a great deal of research into the market before they embark on the expensive process of producing a new model in order to recoup the maximum return from their investment. We modellers should support such efforts as much as we can BUT remember that RTR in O gauge at affordable prices is a relatively new concept and it will take time before a range of models become available. Lets be patient and see what happens in the next two to three years and in so doing we might stand a chance of influencing the trade to produce more. Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted November 30, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2016 Its an interesting point, but the flip side of the coin is that limiting it to one era, market place or area of the country could, I would think, diminish the market place even more. Heljan have hit it right in a number of respects, and I acknowledge that there are errors with some of the models that both, upset, annoy some people. But they have come out with popular modern traction locos that fit various periods and area's of the country. Ie, the 37 and 47 - it appealed to a wide range, across the country and with both blue and green, it appealed to different eras. It was only once they had established the market that things became more refined, i.e. Westerns, Warships, Falcon etc. I think the Deltic model probably doesn't fit into that category, as like the Western they are such popular engines, they were always going to sell. Heljan admitted to me at Telford that the Class 60 had gone ok, but it was unlikely that another pure modern traction model would appear for a fair while, in their words "the accountants say people buy them but not in the quantities or speed that they would buy a Western or 37, lets do more of those models". You struggle to argue with that perspective unless your putting the thousands of pounds up to fund it! For the steam manufactures, things are harder. Generally the steam guys (and this is no disrespect to anyone) are more precise about getting things right. I noted a comment somewhere, may have been on rmWeb, when one of the Heljan models was announced about you can't make one common example of that class (might have been the GWR 2-6-0, I cannot remember) because there were so many different versions. Well, to be honest, Heljan have no choice but to go for a middle of the road example that can be adapted to different eras, but they are already working within a smaller market place than normal. Its unlikely the majority of LMS, Southern, LNER, guys are going to buy one, and anyone modern traction is already out of the running. For those who want it precise, many will likely say I'm not bothered, I'll go for a kit - assuming that the steam guys are more likely to build kits than newer modellers who have come into the field thanks to RTR examples. So I think all of the manufacturers have an awkward place to try and come up with models that a) will sell, b) we want to buy and c) most importantly, make good business sense to produce. I don't think it takes Einstein to work out that GWR panniers and industrial tanks will always sell. They are small, appeal to a wide range, can be used in a variety of ways and eras. Dapol has without doubt brought many hundreds (maybe thousands) of OO gauge modellers to O gauge, because of the RTR Terrier and 08. In both cases, they are small locos, do not necessarily need much room, and can be equally display options or running models for their price. So, personally, I think the best way for manufacturers to go forward is a mix of specific areas, and general appeal locos. Interesting, for £750 the number of people who I've seen commented, or who have commented to me, that they would not normally entertain O gauge, but wow, they are going for a Gresley A3 or A4 because they are just superb at the price really has astonished me. Most of the people I've spoken do, don't have an O gauge layout, and certainly don't have the room for an A4 with 10 coaches behind! Yet, they appear to be selling well for something that won't appear for another 18 months - although I suspect a number of Eastern and Scottish Region small shed layouts may appear! Its an interesting question though and through - and it will be the business viability that leads every time. To be honest thats how it should be, these things aren't cheap to produce, and if one doesn't go, potentially the manufacture says we're not taking that risk again and stops. I really do applaud Minerva and Little Loco for have the guts to go out and beat the big guys well done. Equally to Dapol, although it has to the said if it failed for them, they have perhaps more resources to fall back on and secure the future. But if any manufacturer is listening - more Eastern Region models wouldn't go amiss! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted November 30, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2016 I agree with you John that it would be nice if Bachmann and Hornby were to move into O gauge to give us even more variety to choose from. I think that as in 4mm scale the Great Western is catered for best of all at the moment with Minerva's and Dapol's Panniers plus the forthcoming Prairie from Heljan and of course the range of diesels from Heljan - Warship, Westerns, etc. All of these could and did run together albeit for a shortish period. I am sure that manufacturers do a great deal of research into the market before they embark on the expensive process of producing a new model in order to recoup the maximum return from their investment. We modellers should support such efforts as much as we can BUT remember that RTR in O gauge at affordable prices is a relatively new concept and it will take time before a range of models become available. Lets be patient and see what happens in the next two to three years and in so doing we might stand a chance of influencing the trade to produce more. Rod I'd agree with your comments entirely Rod - Dapol did confirm to me at Telford that they had their model line up mapped out for the next five years, and while they wouldn't say what was on it, obviously, they did confirm the '08' won't be the only modern traction loco in the catalogue for very long. So they are obviously looking at a mix going forward. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Not just locos but I'd like to see more RTR wagons and coaches. Heljan seem to be the only game in town for coaches - am I being unreasonable when I say I think they are overpriced? I bought a Dapol PO wagon and was disappointed. The next generation of wagons appear to be an improvement. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Talking of the "low cost" RTR, I must admit that I'm delighted by the crop of GW locos that are available, or soon will be, and are plausible for my layout. I will purchase them because I will enjoy them, (but I'll keep building kits). The GW remains hugely popular, and you can't criticise any manufacturer for considering it to be a good bet. Turning to Dapol, I think the Terrier was an inspired choice, long lived, multiple liveries, potentially very colourful, used on main line and light rail, even the GW (though I didn't bite!) and the 08 seems similarly sensible, as does the forthcoming Jinty. Not sure why they seem to have so many issues with production, though all the reports suggest that the final product was worth waiting for - hoping the Jinty will be swifter! A3s & A4s...? Well, I suspect a good many will end up as mantelpiece specials, though we might look forward to a few clattering round garden layouts, which will be no bad thing! A full blown express loco, painted, ready to roll for £750? Bring it on! And coaches! I'm sure that Hattons/Heljan could sell a Black 5, a Dutchess, a King or Castle (or a County), and probably a Lord Nelson or an H15 just as soon as they can fund the design and tooling. I'd bet that they'll be profitable too, but I'd guess it'll be a slow and measured process, if it happens at all. It'll be interesting to see what transpires. Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwr Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 I am surprised Heljan have not gone for a 50 yet. They have the bogies! It would also be a popular seller with several liveries although with the mid life refurbishment either the earlier or later liveries are going to be wrong for the model unless they tool up for body variations which on past performance is unlikely. Paul R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 And what stock do you intend to put behind all these lovely locos? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted November 30, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2016 Not just locos but I'd like to see more RTR wagons and coaches. Heljan seem to be the only game in town for coaches - am I being unreasonable when I say I think they are overpriced? I bought a Dapol PO wagon and was disappointed. The next generation of wagons appear to be an improvement. John No I don't think you are! Personally, I think they are good value (and the new Heljan coaches in the Teaks are priced around the same amount) .. but I was hoping we'd get them down to the £199-£209 price range, when they were announced. I cannot comment on the Dapol POs haven't really looked at them. I guess, looking the Tower website, we're talking £42.50 for a Dapol RTR wagon, as against a £36 Parkside/Slaters kit ... when the former doesn't need building is really good pricing that we shouldn't argue with! But in what way were you disappointed? Quality of build, or detailing? Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted November 30, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 30, 2016 One of the problems with the large pacific type steamers is where are you going to run it. The run of RTR so far tends to concentrate on smaller tank locos, I feel, partly because they're more affordable for somebody converting from smaller scales, and partly because there's far more chance of the modeller being able to run it on some kind of a layout at home. Going to O gauge shows for some years, you'll see someone coming away with a large cardboard box with an expensive kit, and you know that it's their favourite loco from spotting days, and when made up, will be on the mantelpiece, with the occasional spin down on the club oval. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 And what stock do you intend to put behind all these lovely locos? A fair question. Coaches are b700dy hard work to build, and not cheap. And you need several, if not lots, for a decent train. (Always assuming space to run it, of course) The Heljan teaks will certainly suit the potential A3 & A4 owners, and the MTH LMS coaches look nice. Somehow it seems easier if you model BR days rather than grouping, and of course, pre grouping will be somewhat more difficult in RTR. Lots of goods stock from Dapol, Skytrex, Lionheart, and now Darstaed are doing finescale, it's getting easier. Just as pertinent, what are you going to run them on? Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 No I don't think you are! Personally, I think they are good value (and the new Heljan coaches in the Teaks are priced around the same amount) .. but I was hoping we'd get them down to the £199-£209 price range, when they were announced. I cannot comment on the Dapol POs haven't really looked at them. I guess, looking the Tower website, we're talking £42.50 for a Dapol RTR wagon, as against a £36 Parkside/Slaters kit ... when the former doesn't need building is really good pricing that we shouldn't argue with! But in what way were you disappointed? Quality of build, or detailing? Rich I bought 3 Kirk Parts Packs for Gresley coaches. These are priced at 44 pounds but after buying in the things not included, the investment for a complete kit is more like 150 pounds. If I buy JLRT or Kemilway bogies (and I'm tempted) that's another 42 pounds so we're getting up there. I haven't had my hands on a Heljan coach - I wonder about bogies, underframe and interior. As for the Dapol wagon, brakes are a long way from the wheels and wheels flop cock about. I described my adventure here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/116861-Dapol-rtr-po-wagon-upgrade/ John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 It rather depends whether your "bit" of the hobby tends towards building or running your stock. If you like building kits, then there are lots of options. If you don't, you're dependent on the RTR & second hand markets. The Dapol wagons have attracted a lot of criticism, but they probably fill a need - if nothing else, they're a good start for a bit of "bashing". Track is probably more of an issue. Again, if you're able & willing to build your own the world's your lobster, but if not, you're down to Marcway & Peco (and potentially Lenz & other "offshore" options) but if you want set-track, I fear you're pretty much consigned to wait for Peco to get their new points out. Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 I'm a bit surprised at some of the conent. There have been a lot of reasonably priced RTR O gauge brass locos available until recently. I'm not talking about thousands of pounds. Admittedly they would get pulled apart from some on here, but I have a Crab which cost me c£550 and a 4F for less. Admittedly I did have to spray them black and put some numbers on them. They run beautifully. I doubt even the new manufacturers are going to get much below those sort of prices for tender locos. I do agree the big omission is coaches. Especially suitable for branchlines - some will be content with the GWR Lionheart when they come along, but a bit more variety is required. I have a couple of half built coach kits, they are just so repetitively boring to do. As to wagons, well once Dapol have their new ones available there will be a good range of all the basic wagons for the BR steam era to be available. OK, a BR style brake van would be nice [another nightmare for the manufacturers as they could never choose the right one!]. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fezza Posted November 30, 2016 Author Share Posted November 30, 2016 Personally I am happy to kit-build wagons. Coaches I am finding more difficult and locos... well I am going to need to upskill. I think there would be a market for an rtr four-wheel GWR coach, maybe with some generic features that could allow it to represent other types. Some lasted until the eve of nationalisation in passenger "paddy" traffic and even longer in departmental use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Paul, You're right about the reasonably-priced brass of course, but even those of us who build locos may be less confident about painting & lining them, it's going to be the thick end of £150-200 to get a brass loco painted by an expert, depending on what you want. I think that is where the new plastic stock is scoring. It really is ready to run, in the same way the 00 stuff is, and we're talking that sort of money, maybe a little more. I think that's the attraction for many modellers. As I said earlier, I enjoy building locos, but there's little point if you can buy a good-quality RTR for the price of the kit. I'm thinking Minerva here, by the time I've shelled out for a kit, motor, wheels & possibly machined rods, I'm going to be in the same ball park. And I've already built a couple of panniers, so I can reconcile myself to taking the "easy option". Given we're all strapped for time, I can make something else. Like finish my coaches... Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Smith Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 I was very disappointed by the Heljan Mk 1 coaches. I purchased one, but sold it again. It felt to me like an 00 coach which had just been blown up to 7mm, rather than a proper redesign. Somehow it missed the right "feel" for me. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Thanks for that insight John. In my short time doing O gauge I have realised that there is so much more to a 7mm model than to a 4mm model than just "blowing it up". This explains (to me) the wide gulf between 4 and 7mm pricing. It would be good to see some photos of the Heljan coach especially the inside, bogies and underframe. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 When I can buy a USA tank and a Q1, I might be tempted to come back this side of the Atlantic. O is clearly the best scale, but I haven't the space for American O, and when it comes to rolling stock I'm a box opener. Smallish black freight locos with sunshine lettering... I could be convinced by that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted December 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2016 I was very disappointed by the Heljan Mk 1 coaches. I purchased one, but sold it again. It felt to me like an 00 coach which had just been blown up to 7mm, rather than a proper redesign. Somehow it missed the right "feel" for me. John Hi John, Yes, I know what you mean, although I have to say I've got seven of them here for a complete rake and am quite happy with them. In time, should I ever progress to kit building coaches, and have the layout pretty much finished, then they may get replaced, but in the mean time, I have to say, for me they are better than nothing! I also think, some internal lighting, people and weathering will transform them quite a bit. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Smith Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Hi John, Yes, I know what you mean, although I have to say I've got seven of them here for a complete rake and am quite happy with them. In time, should I ever progress to kit building coaches, and have the layout pretty much finished, then they may get replaced, but in the mean time, I have to say, for me they are better than nothing! I also think, some internal lighting, people and weathering will transform them quite a bit. Rich Fair enough, Rich. But to be specific - plastic buffers, surely not good enough at this price range. No C1 or end branding on the green SR versions (why not?) And awful gappy joins between roof, sides and ends where it should all be flush with a slight roof overhang. I'm not sure that the side profile is quite right, either. Door and grab handles moulded and not separate. And I could go on . . . The problem is that in O Gauge any problems like this are just so much more obvious than in the smaller scales. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 All things that can be fixed by buying in components or making oneself. I quite like to modify RTR with simple things (sometimes not so simple), it gives you something unique. I'm guessing the interiors are pretty basic then? John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwr Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 The Heljan coaches are the wrong profile caused by the need to get them out of the mould. I think this is because the roof is moulded with the sides. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 A mate of mine has bought a rake of MTK(*) Mk1's, very good, you just have to specify 2-rail. They come with finescale wheels, sprung metal buffers and are approx. half the price of Heljan! * Should read MTH! Thanks for the info. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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