South Wales Valleys in the 50s

[tomparryharry]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Ah, I see, sorry, bit slow on the uptake on Mondays (and any other day with a y in it).  No, I want to keep my 2721 as 2761.  This is as you know a worked up Hornby and it's body tooling has the splashers correctly incorrectly (if you see what I mean) positioned for the incorrect Triang Hornby generic Jinty chassis it was originally designed for and which makes it unsuitable for use with a correct (for a JInty/1F, but not for a 2721 or 57xx) Bachmann Jinty/1F chassis.  I have seen details of them re-chassised with correct Bachmann 57xx mechs that are incorrect for this model as the wheel/splasher relationship is not right, nor is the fishbelly coupling rod, and as my (recent production) Hornby chassis runs sweetly enough and there are irresolvable skirt and tank pitch issues with this model, I'll keep her as is for an occasional outing on the workman's or a quick clearance trip to relieve her crew's boredom at Control's behest to break the monotony of pilot work at Tondu.  Despite her undeniable shortcomings and probably having been a bag of nails with the ride qualities of an iron mangle hated by everyone at Tondu post 1948, I'm rather fond of the old lady...

 

She has no topfeed, of course, the genesis of your cunning plan, and 2761 in her final guise has been photographed to prove she had no top feed, at least not as withdrawn from Tondu in May 1950.  Don't anyone take that as confirmation that she never had a boiler with a top feed, though, as however unlikely I consider it she may have carried a top feed boiler previously; some 2721s did.  Her last overhaul was at Caerphilly between 1942-5 (the photo is at Swindon Works reception sidings August 1950 and shows her in austerity black with 'grotesque' G W R initials, signifying a Caerphilly job in that time frame) so she's more back story than I know about in pannier guise.

 

The 1854 was going to be 1730, withdrawn on 31/6/48 and pushing the period envelope a bit, in that I doubt she saw much action in 1948, but Rail UK list 1870 as xfer from STJ, date unknown, but not withdrawn from Tondu until 31/10/50, a lot more 'viable'.  I need to try to find out if she had a 57xx type cab; as 2761 is already in service with a half cab I wouldn't mind that, but whoever put her body together made a very neat job and she deserves a proper chassis.  The existing one is probably beyond saving and crude by modern standards.  This loco also has no top feed, but I really would like some 57xx/8750s without top feed.

 

There's also 6762, a steam brake only 6750 variant 8750, new to Tondu 11/48 and at the shed until xfer to Swansea East Dock, a more likely location for a loco with no vacuum brake, 10/59, a long stay by Tondu standards.  My quest for biodiversity requires yet another pannier, but I reckon it's a pretty safe bet that a loco built in 1948 carried a top feed until at least 1955...

 

She's a bit of a mystery, though; why allocate her new to Tondu.  Pilot work is the obvious answer, but having a loco not available for passenger work in 1948, when it was still all loco hauled at Tondu seems an unnecessary restriction and there can't, surely, have been a job that specifically required a steam brake only loco at the shed.  These and the 67xx tended to gravitate towards dock or yard shunting work; doesn't sound much like Tondu to me!  But there she was just the same, for 11 years and at least one overhaul!

 

So, I'll do my Bachmann 57xx/8750 top feed removals the hard way, with a bit of cutting, a good deal of filing and sanding down, probably some filling, and a lot of bad language.  Looking forward to the results rather than the work...

 

You can't have too many panniers, you know.  They're not all the same, honest!!!

 

^762 'may' have been a resident of Upper Bank at some point. Panniers did lose topfeeds at overhaul: The idea being that a boiler change was easier to effect than a full stripout. The locomotive either lose or gain injectors from a topfeed, or backhead., depending on the boiler. We have both types at Blaenavon, as also the Severn Valley, and Didcot.

[The Johnster]

Yes.  Boilers take longer to overhaul than the rest of the loco, so in order to put the loco back into service and earning money as opposed to bay blocking in the works, another boiler is put in.  Boilers were common between classes, in this case between the various 57xx derivates, 1854, and 2721, and came in two basic types, those with or without top feeds.  Thus, while one can gain a rough idea of whether a loco was originally fitted with a top feed boiler from the build date, it gets harder to pin down when the loco is overhauled and another boiler fitted.  This will likely be the next in on the list of overhauled ready to go boilers to make the most of the time available on the certificate, so a loco built without topfeed may acquire one, and vice versa, but only until the next overhaul.  

 

8750s and 6750s built during and after WW2 at Swindon were all initially fitted with topfeed boilers.  So, 9681 has one when Tondu gets her new in 1949 and still does on the DFR, but one cannot assume from that that the loco had a topfeed boiler throughout it's service life.  It had one when it was withdrawn from East Dock in 1965, but must have had at least 2 changes of boiler between 1949 and 1965, and the topfeed status of the 'middle' boiler(s) is an unknown.  

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Yes.  Boilers take longer to overhaul than the rest of the loco, so in order to put the loco back into service and earning money as opposed to bay blocking in the works, another boiler is put in.  Boilers were common between classes, in this case between the various 57xx derivates, 1854, and 2721, and came in two basic types, those with or without top feeds.  Thus, while one can gain a rough idea of whether a loco was originally fitted with a top feed boiler from the build date, it gets harder to pin down when the loco is overhauled and another boiler fitted.  This will likely be the next in on the list of overhauled ready to go boilers to make the most of the time available on the certificate, so a loco built without topfeed may acquire one, and vice versa, but only until the next overhaul.  

 

8750s and 6750s built during and after WW2 at Swindon were all initially fitted with topfeed boilers.  So, 9681 has one when Tondu gets her new in 1949 and still does on the DFR, but one cannot assume from that that the loco had a topfeed boiler throughout it's service life.  It had one when it was withdrawn from East Dock in 1965, but must have had at least 2 changes of boiler between 1949 and 1965, and the topfeed status of the 'middle' boiler(s) is an unknown.  

 

The locomotive card will tell you what is what. We've got the card from 9629, and it had about 4 boilers in its life. I'm sorry but I don't have my copy of that to hand. I'm sure that 9681& 9682 will have copies of their respective cards, held at the Dean Forest Railway.  The Public Record Office at Kew  keeps these records.

 

Ian.

[The Johnster]

Sorted a Siphon.  Lima Siphon G, to be exact, fitted with old Mainline Collett 9' bogies originally off a Siphon H which has had it's bogies replaced with 3D printed Americans from Stafford Road Works/Shapeways.  The Lima's original B1 BR standard bogies are completely incorrect for it and have been binned, as I cannot see any use for them on Cwmdimbath.  

 

The improvement in appearance with the Collett bogies is amazing; this and decent buffers have lifted the old Lima into something a lot more worthwhile.  Sadly, the running didn't match, and has given all sorts of trouble.  Problem is setting the ride height of the bodyshell on the bogies to be low enough for realism and at the same time sufficient for the wheels to clear the floor: the original Mainline plastic wheels having been replaced with Bachmann all metal coach wheels;  A layout with tighter curves might have given me trouble with them clearing the back of the solebar as well but this is not an issue on Cwmdimbath.   

 

First attempt had the coach running nicely, but too high by about a scale foot,  remeniscent of Triang/Triang Hornby models of a certain vintage.  So, in order to lower it on the bogies, I removed the outer part of the bogie pivot mounting on the coach floor.  That dropped the body too much, so I fitted rubber spacing rings to the bottom of the pivots.  This had the coach riding at the correct height, but fouling the floor at one end.  Rectifying this had the coach riding too low at one end as if it had been loaded badly, and prone to derailment when propelling.  Not Good Enough.

 

I was considering giving up altogether, but I like Siphon Gs, and decided to try an experiment before binning the thing.  Experiment was to superglue press studs to the floor and bogie tops, an idea that IIRC I got from MJT's website.  Luckily I didn't file the bosses down and found that the height given by the first cut gave me the correct ride height and good running; the coach is now level and very well behaved, even being propelled between a loco and a heavy train.  Good luck rather than planning with the height, but, result!  Good Enough.

 

Next task is to repaint, possibly renumber, and give it some new transfers from Cambridge Custom.  

[tomparryharry]

17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Sorted a Siphon.  Lima Siphon G, to be exact, fitted with old Mainline Collett 9' bogies originally off a Siphon H which has had it's bogies replaced with 3D printed Americans from Stafford Road Works/Shapeways.  The Lima's original B1 BR standard bogies are completely incorrect for it and have been binned, as I cannot see any use for them on Cwmdimbath.  

 

The improvement in appearance with the Collett bogies is amazing; this and decent buffers have lifted the old Lima into something a lot more worthwhile.  Sadly, the running didn't match, and has given all sorts of trouble.  Problem is setting the ride height of the bodyshell on the bogies to be low enough for realism and at the same time sufficient for the wheels to clear the floor: the original Mainline plastic wheels having been replaced with Bachmann all metal coach wheels;  A layout with tighter curves might have given me trouble with them clearing the back of the solebar as well but this is not an issue on Cwmdimbath.   

 

First attempt had the coach running nicely, but too high by about a scale foot,  remeniscent of Triang/Triang Hornby models of a certain vintage.  So, in order to lower it on the bogies, I removed the outer part of the bogie pivot mounting on the coach floor.  That dropped the body too much, so I fitted rubber spacing rings to the bottom of the pivots.  This had the coach riding at the correct height, but fouling the floor at one end.  Rectifying this had the coach riding too low at one end as if it had been loaded badly, and prone to derailment when propelling.  Not Good Enough.

 

I was considering giving up altogether, but I like Siphon Gs, and decided to try an experiment before binning the thing.  Experiment was to superglue press studs to the floor and bogie tops, an idea that IIRC I got from MJT's website.  Luckily I didn't file the bosses down and found that the height given by the first cut gave me the correct ride height and good running; the coach is now level and very well behaved, even being propelled between a loco and a heavy train.  Good luck rather than planning with the height, but, result!  Good Enough.

 

Next task is to repaint, possibly renumber, and give it some new transfers from Cambridge Custom.  

.

Edited July 1, 2019 by tomparryharry
Reply deleted due to 'foot in mouth' disease....

[The Johnster]

I simultaneously confirm and deny all and any such rumours, Ian.  There are weirder things than that to be seen on Cardiff buses...

 

I’ve never made a dress in my life.  Not successfully, anyway.  

[37Oban]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I simultaneously confirm and deny all and any such rumours, Ian.  There are weirder things than that to be seen on Cardiff buses...

 

I’ve never made a dress in my life.  Not successfully, anyway.  

I think further clarification is needed before my imagination leads to a brain meltdown!

 

Roja

[tomparryharry]

3 minutes ago, 37Oban said:

I think further clarification is needed before my imagination leads to a brain meltdown!

 

Roja

 

It's entirely my fault. Johnsters mention of press studs sent my imagination off on a tangent. I've never seen the Honourable Johnster travelling out & about whilst adorned with a pair of dressmakers scissors. 

 

Please put it down to the lateness of the hour, and imbibing of too much alcoholic beverage.

 

Ian.

[The Johnster]

Press studs, as it turns out, are excellent bogie mounts, allowing the bogie to move freely in rotation and providing just the right amount of vertical play in all directions.  They could almost have been designed for the job!  They are also cheap and easily available, and removing/attaching the bogie could hardly be simpler.  All sorts of sizes are available; the ones on the Siphon are about 2.5mm diameter.  Recommended, but don't let your mates see you buying the studs in the haberdasher's...

[31A]

Not sure whether or not this helps at this stage, but when I fitted Bachmann GWR bogies to a Lima Siphon G I found I had to cut holes in the floor to clear the wheel flanges, due I suppose to a combination of the Lima interpretation of a BR1 bogie perhaps being a bit flaky, and them using wagon-size wheels in their coach bogies.

[The Johnster]

Yes, I had to cut away a sizeable lump of floor for the Bachmann wheels to clear properly; attached photo shows the studs and the mutilation required (not to mention it’s crudity).  The Lima B1 bogies weren’t bad, and they were a reasonably safe pair of hands with a plastic moulding.  Sadly, once you started to look at the mechs, or the wheels, or chassis block details, it all went a bit pear shaped!

 

Good mouldings or not, they were of course absolutely wrong for Siphon Gs though IIRC some newspaper traffic Gs were given 100mph B4 bogies in their last years in traffic.  Siphon Gs had Collett 9’ or ‘American’ Bogies, and the newspaper vans I remember from the 70s had Colletts. 

 

The Bachmann wheels are definitely larger in diameter than the Lima pizza-cutters, and one of the challenges of this upgrade is getting the ride height correct while ensuring free movement and vertical play for the bogies.  Definitely worth it though, correct bogies and decent buffers make a huge difference. 

 

As I said, repainting is next and I’m thinking I can do better than the Lima gangway connectors as well.  Gilding the lily would be to cut out the gaps between the ventilator slats and backlight them; I think the reality of this is that life’s too short!

Edited July 1, 2019 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

Meanwhile, the Dimbath Valley Railway directors have responded to criticism that the platform is poorly lit after the Ratio lamps debacle.  The Chief Procurement Officer was sent to Penarth Show on Sunday to see what might be done and came home with 6x GWR swan necked platform lamps from Kytes Lights stand for £16.  These are nice little things in brass with warm LEDs, but are painted in gloss black which AFAIK no GW or WR lamps were ever actually painted in, but a little attention with brown and cream paint will sort this out and they will appear on the platform in due course, but a drill needs to be borrowed and a power supply acquired first.

 

This is the start of a longer term project to provide some lighting on the layout; platform lights, some buildings, signals to evoke a dull rainy day.  Night running might happen, but I cannot yet see how to provide working lights on the trains; I don't mean coach lights but loco head and train tail lights.

[The Johnster]

9681 simmers in the loop with the ecs from the evening ROF workman's from Tremains.  It would normally have gone by now, but tonight is Friday and the Ogmore Forest Pigeon fancier's association have chartered a special, which is even now making it's way up the valley behind 8448; a Siphon H, SR B, and a Hawksworth BG.  These are all vehicles with fold down shelves and suitable for such work.  The train is booked to run to Birmingham Snow Hill via Hereford and Worcester overnight, where the birds will be released in the morning, picking up traffic and extra vans on the way.  Loco will be changed at Cardiff, and we will run via the Vale of Glamorgan line.  

 

9681's crew will therefore run into overtime.  They are parked suspiciously close to the Cwmdimbath Non-political Sports and Social Club Nissen, and may well have already spent some of it...

 

The club steward's Minor van is parked outside and the civil engineers, who have been investigating a bit of subsidence, have left their Land Rover suspiciously handy as well.  

 

 

 

 

Haven't made a start on the lighting yet; been lacking in mojo a bit this week, but I'm 'in recovery' now.

 

[The Johnster]

 

The pigeon vans have arrived, 8448 has run around and positioned the stock, and there are a few moments peace and quiet before the fanciers start to turn up and load their birds before heading for a session in the club; they have booked the trailing Siphon which has been marshalled so that it is close to the station entrance gate.  8448 has detached and drawn forward to the water crane; our driver wants to brim the tanks at the last minute before setting off for Cardiff via the Vale as his next chance will be at Barry, the other stops being a bit too brief!  It's starting to get dark and the roofs are glistening with the drizzly rain that looks as if it's set in for the night (actually a trick of the light), and the guard is considering lighting the stove in the B in case it gets cold later; the light is starting to fail and conditions are poor for photography, but there is a good bit of valley atmosphere in the shot.  The guard hasn't put the tail lamp on yet, and of course he'll have to do a brake test when the loco couples up again.  

 

Cwmdimbath's Signalman normally switches out and goes home to mum after the ROF ecs departs, and the branch is worked one engine in steam by an auto in the evening, but is booked overtime this evening for the pigeons, due off at 20.30, which he's glad of as he's saving up for a new motor bike, the BSA Bantam 125 he currently poses on pretending to be a Hell's Angel to impress girls having proved an unreliable starter on damp mornings.  He dreams of a Vincent Black Lightning, which'd probably kill him in less than the 0-60 time, but will probably end up with something a little less insane, Triumph Tiger Cub perhaps.

 

There is some talk of a night shift at the colliery, as new galleries are being opened up in the very bowels of the earth and demand is increasing for the moment, which will need night coal trains for clearance and the box opened 24 hours.  The extent to which this talk is down to the Johnster having bought some platform lights and is allowing himself to get carried away is moot...

 

It'd mean another miner's workman's for the night shift as well as another 2 coal clearance workings, which would really need another 56xx or 42xx, just when I thought I had nearly enough locos.  I suspect the cost of this is what will scupper the idea, no matter how keen the colliery management are or how much the union wants to attract the jobs.  

 

[tomparryharry]

At an educated guess, I'd suggest 8450 is your prime candidate. Booked to Ebbw Junction in 1950, and withdrawn from Tondu in June, 1959. 

[Compound2632]

On 24/06/2019 at 18:23, The Johnster said:

No, I want to keep my 2721 as 2761.  This is as you know a worked up Hornby and it's body tooling has the splashers correctly incorrectly (if you see what I mean) positioned for the incorrect Triang Hornby generic Jinty chassis it was originally designed for and which makes it unsuitable for use with a correct (for a JInty/1F, but not for a 2721 or 57xx) Bachmann Jinty/1F chassis. 

 

 

 

To be clear, the Triang/Triang Hornby generic Jinty chassis is, I believe, incorrect for everything it's ever been put under, at least commercially: 7'9" + 8'3" seems to be rather a rare wheelbase for engines with 4'6"-ish wheels; it's outside my comfort zone but I understand the majority of panniers were 15'6" overall wheelbase.

 

The Bachmann Jinty (LMS standard 3F 0-6-0T) and 1F chassis are not to be conflated, they are different and each correct for their prototype, at 8'0" + 8'6" and 7'4" + 7'8" respectively.

 

 

[The Johnster]

Pleased to report something of a return of modelling mojo, resulting in a bit of work being done.  Nothing spectacular, just replacing Parkside buffers with metal ones and painting brass enamel on coach door handles and grab rails, Triang shorty clerestories, E116, and C63.  I'll do the A31 and the repainted A23/30 tomoz.  Few blodges and some touching up to make good, but it's broken whatever mental block has prevented me from doing anything for about 2 weeks.  Also tomoz prolly, I'll 'ave a bit of a look at the new platform swan necks as well. brown and cream WR paint, white around the bottoms of the shades, and we'll determine exactly where they are going to go, maybe drill some pilot holes.

[2996 Victor]

Hi,

 

Just found your layout thread and going through it steadily 

 

Although mid-50s BR has only ever really been a back-burner interest for me, the completely random purchase of a couple of Parkside kits of the era (yesterday!) has spurred a little digging.

 

And, ever the layout planner but seldom a builder, it's suggested to me two layouts based on the same location. One is already planned with stock being built, and is set around 1900-05, the other one  would be set around 1950-55 to provide a contrast in development. Whether it ever happens, of course, we'll see!

 

But thanks for the inspiration, please keep building and posting - I'll be following with interest!

 

All the best,

 

Mark

[The Johnster]

Thank you, Mark; it's not every day someone says that anything I've done is an inspiration!  Good luck with the 1905/55 project; sounds like a really good idea!

[The Johnster]

I’ve finally got around to drilling the pilot holes for the lamps.  They are a little bright for my taste at 12v, and look much better at about 8 or 9.  We are going for the feeble but warm glow of probably 25watt filament bulbs. 

 

This will ultimately require a custom made power supply, and some thinking about. 

[tomparryharry]

15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I’ve finally got around to drilling the pilot holes for the lamps.  They are a little bright for my taste at 12v, and look much better at about 8 or 9.  We are going for the feeble but warm glow of probably 25watt filament bulbs. 

 

This will ultimately require a custom made power supply, and some thinking about. 

 

Try looking for a old phone charger style power supply. 'Bay might be a solution. I still intend to use things like this over here. Bu**ered if I can find them however. Mrs Smith has 'put them away', again......

[The Johnster]

The trouble with SWMBOs is that they insist on tidying up before we've finished making the mess...  

 

Phone chargers had occurred to me as a possible solution, but I want something switchable.  An old model railway controller might be the answer; nice retro styling and it can work as a dimmer as well, one of those old Triang things with the red knobs.  Or, more sensible, why don't I get around to acquiring a round tuit of suitable diameter, send my dysfunctional Gaugemaster HH off for replacement, and use the old Gaugemaster power controller as the power supply.  

 

Extractus digitus, Johnster!

[The Johnster]

The job is more or less finished for now, in that the lamps are installed in their final positions having been painted (brown and cream WR livery with white underneath shades).  No point in wiring them up until digitii have been extracto or whatever the correct cod latin is and the power supply is sorted out, and there is some minor touching up to do before I photograph them.   Further developments in this direction will be a couple of matching wall bracketed swan necks on the side of the station building.

[The Johnster]

I’ve ordered a 57xx body off ‘bay in anticipation of Bachmann’s 94xx next May.  This will precipitate the withdrawal of my limbach 94xx, releasing a Bachmann pannier chassis to go under this new body.  Quick squiz at RailUK gives me a choice of 7 locos at the shed in 1948 and withdrawn from it, and I’m leaning in the direction of 5707 at the moment as oldest an most likely to have a boiler without a top feed, which I want to model, but this is guesstimating at best.  

 

I’d also like either early BR Egyptian Serif or Swindon 1942-5 austerity black livery, which is likely to result in more guesstimating!   The ordered body is in BR black post 1958, so will be easy enough to repaint; a full repaint will be necessary though to cover the top feed removal butchery!  

 

Still want an 8750 to convert to 6762, Tondu’s only 6750 and probably the only non vacuum braked loco it ever had.    

 

[The Johnster]

I've gone through all the google images that come up when you enter 'Tondu Engine Shed', and a good number show 57xx panniers; photos all taken in the BR era.  But all of the 57xx that appear have top feed boilers.  Now, I am not sure any conclusions beyond that several of Tondu's 57xx had top feed boilers can be drawn from this.  Few of the locos are identifiable by number because of the angles and distances that the photos are taken from, and one shot inside the roundhouse shows nothing more than the cab rear and bunker of one loco, but the impression is that the majority of Tondu's 57xx had top feed boilers the majority of the time.

 

None of the photographed locos can be identified as 5707, but of course one of them could be; '07 was a long term resident by Tondu standards.  I aim for locos on the RailUK site listed in the '1948 or new and withdrawn from' list as the must suitable prototypes, as locos moved around a bit in South Wales in the 50s.  I'm going to remove the top feed anyway, and it's associated pipework, as this guesstimation gives a good chance of restoring the loco should it prove at a later date to have had a top feed throughout my decade period, '48-'58, or renumbering to an example without top feed.  But I'm not claiming that 5707 in my livery will be accurate, and this should be noted by anyone copying me!