7mm track C&L or Peco

[hayfield]

The C&L plans do show chair type positions, eg where two chairs are next to each other but the space is too small for standard chairs next to each other. Sadly unlike 4mm scale there are no readily available block or common crossing chairs other than those from Shapeways. Some block and common crossing chairs can be formed by chopping up standard chairs, but it is nice to see the addition of (L1) bridge chairs within turnouts and crossings

 

If you look at the switch and common crossing chair details L1 (bridge chair) are shown, though with the switch chairs there is normally an bridge chair on the next timber on the curved switch and stock rails, with standard chairs on the straight switch and stock rails

 

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=36

 

If you look at the common crossings its much the same before and after the common crossings where 2 standard chairs are too large to fit

[Simond]

I haven't used any brass fishplates. Plastic ones are fine.

 

JLTRT tiebars are cheaper & easier to use, but not as delicate as the Ambis ones.

 

Sleepers & timbers are available from C&L, Slaters and Intentio. Plywood preferred IMO, but Norman Solomon recommends plastic ones, and he does build a bit of track...

 

Hth

Simon

[hayfield]

I haven't used any brass fishplates. Plastic ones are fine.

 

JLTRT tiebars are cheaper & easier to use, but not as delicate as the Ambis ones.

 

Sleepers & timbers are available from C&L, Slaters and Intentio. Plywood preferred IMO, but Norman Solomon recommends plastic ones, and he does build a bit of track...

 

Hth

Simon

 

 

Plastic ones do give you a welded joint which is far stronger than ply timbers with a plastic chair

[3 link]

I haven't used any brass fishplates. Plastic ones are fine.

JLTRT tiebars are cheaper & easier to use, but not as delicate as the Ambis ones.

Sleepers & timbers are available from C&L, Slaters and Intentio. Plywood preferred IMO, but Norman Solomon recommends plastic ones, and he does build a bit of track...

Hth

Simon

Hi Simon,

 

I only use the brass f/plates on the heel joint for added strength not electrical connectivity.

[3 link]

Plastic ones do give you a welded joint which is far stronger than ply timbers with a plastic chair

Hi John,

 

Having built track work using both timber and plastic sleepers over the years, I would say the levels of adhesion are roughly the same. The Mek Pak leeches through the wood grain to give good results when dried.

 

Martyn.

[hayfield]

Hi John,

 

Having built track work using both timber and plastic sleepers over the years, I would say the levels of adhesion are roughly the same. The Mek Pak leeches through the wood grain to give good results when dried.

 

Martyn.

 

 

Martin

 

I am sorry to disagree with you on this one but there is a very pronounced difference, how do I know ! I have an 0 gauge turnout which I use for demonstrating purposes, its on a heavy board which got dropped and some of the chairs got dislodged and came unstuck. In fact its common knowledge with plastic chair on ply timbers (once dry) the joint can be broken and re-set unlike plastic chair on to plastic sleeper/timber

 

Plastic to plastic melts into each other when the correct solvent is used, once set the chair has to be cut off (normally destroying the chair)

 

Plastic to ply has a good grip if the correct solvent is used (the strength of the turnout is obtained from the combined strength of all the chairs being stuck down), but especially when dry, the joint can easily be broken (which can be a benefit if an adjustment is required) and the chair(s) re-positioned. The strength of the joint depends on both the grain of the wood and solvent used ans sometimes the stain (on the ply) used.

[Simond]

I can understand that the plastic-plastic weld will ultimately be stronger as both parts "merge", but the plastic-wood join depends on the plastic softening enough to spread over and adhere to the surface texture of the timber.

 

I'm sure the plastic-wood join is "strong enough", as witnessed by the many models that have been made this way, my own included. It is surely true that chairs can be removed, and I note some of mine have not adhered well, and occasionally need re-sticking with a touch of solvent. There is the odd one that won't have it, and a drop of cyano fixes that, but marks the timber.

 

I recall an experiment reported in MRJ many years ago, in which these theories & practices were tested, but I don't have a clue which issue, nor indeed the results!

 

Best

Simon

[3 link]

Hi John,

 

This is one of those topics that can run and run, my layout is now nearly 2 years in the making and none of my track work has so far come adrift, and the fact that it's 7mm the details tends too stand out more than the smaller scales. So I chose wood as nothing looks more like wood than wood itself : )

 

I have used C&L items since the 80's, it was then called K&L and owned by Len Newman, and since that time have built many a turnout in 4mm, EM and finally 7mm back in the early 90's. If they are fitted properly they never come loose, and I do try not to drop any of my work so the chances of things dropping off are minimal. As we talk I am building what you see below using their ply sleepers, and I would not of invested that much in the track work if I didn't have faith in both my building skills or the products itself.

 

 

I'm afraid it's one of those subjects where we must agree to disagree : )

 

Martyn.

[3 link]

I can understand that the plastic-plastic weld will ultimately be stronger as both parts "merge", but the plastic-wood join depends on the plastic softening enough to spread over and adhere to the surface texture of the timber.

I'm sure the plastic-wood join is "strong enough", as witnessed by the many models that have been made this way, my own included. It is surely true that chairs can be removed, and I note some of mine have not adhered well, and occasionally need re-sticking with a touch of solvent. There is the odd one that won't have it, and a drop of cyano fixes that, but marks the timber.

I recall an experiment reported in MRJ many years ago, in which these theories & practices were tested, but I don't have a clue which issue, nor indeed the results!

Best

Simon

Hi Simon,

 

That's right they did do a test in MRJ ( you have a good memory ) , I have every issue since the start number 0 . But I'm too busy to look right now and to be honest I can't be arsed.

 

Also I'm busy on the p/way while the wife and child are out, so I'm grabbing a few hours while I can.

 

ATB,

 

Martyn.

[daifly]

I'm away from home at the mo so can't check, but a quick look at the MRJ index suggests issue 131.

Dave

[hayfield]

Hi John,

 

This is one of those topics that can run and run, my layout is now nearly 2 years in the making and none of my track work has so far come adrift, and the fact that it's 7mm the details tends too stand out more than the smaller scales. So I chose wood as nothing looks more like wood than wood itself : )

 

I have used C&L items since the 80's, it was then called K&L and owned by Len Newman, and since that time have built many a turnout in 4mm, EM and finally 7mm back in the early 90's. If they are fitted properly they never come loose, and I do try not to drop any of my work so the chances of things dropping off are minimal. As we talk I am building what you see below using their ply sleepers, and I would not of invested that much in the track work if I didn't have faith in both my building skills or the products itself.

 

RenderedContent-85C0C939-8121-4C71-B74C-19C02609FABF.JPG

 

I'm afraid it's one of those subjects where we must agree to disagree : )

 

Martyn.

 

 

Martyn

 

I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression in my reply, I was not trying to say anything against ply/wood sleepers and timbers or there is anything wrong building trackwork using them( as you say no one goes around dropping their baseboards excepting the odd mishap at an exhibition) I have found their strength derives form the combined strength of all the chairs within the piece of track, which under most cases is perfectly adequate.

 

The fact that plastic chairs do not permanently weld themselves to the sleeper/timber can be a benefit, as it is a quick job to break the bond (normally without damaging the chairs) and re-position the rail if necessary. So it could be argued ply sleepers/timbers are a better proposition. The proviso is to use the correct solvent

 

What I disagreed with is the comment "adhesion are roughly the same" which they are not. But again that's my opinion, have a good weekend

[MarshLane]

Oh and some Mek Pak to glue the chairs to the sleepers, tie bars are up to you, I prefer the ones by JLTRT.

 

Martyn.

 

Echo Martyn's comments about JLTRT tie-bars - I've used those on my point work. 

 

Rich

[3 link]

Martyn

 

I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression in my reply, I was not trying to say anything against ply/wood sleepers and timbers or there is anything wrong building trackwork using them( as you say no one goes around dropping their baseboards excepting the odd mishap at an exhibition) I have found their strength derives form the combined strength of all the chairs within the piece of track, which under most cases is perfectly adequate.

 

The fact that plastic chairs do not permanently weld themselves to the sleeper/timber can be a benefit, as it is a quick job to break the bond (normally without damaging the chairs) and re-position the rail if necessary. So it could be argued ply sleepers/timbers are a better proposition. The proviso is to use the correct solvent

 

What I disagreed with is the comment "adhesion are roughly the same" which they are not. But again that's my opinion, have a good weekend

Hi John,

 

I do agree with the above, it was just the " adhesion " part we disagreed on. Well I have dug out the MRJ in question and I remember the results did surprise me at the time hence why I probably started using timber at the time ( sorry my memory is shot ).

 

I'm not out to score brownie points but below were the findings stated in MRJ 131, also this is probably of some interest to those thinking of taking the plunge into building their own track work.

 

 

 

ATB,

 

Martyn.

[Simond]

Nice one! Issue 131? We're up at 250-something now, so that's a while ago!

 

Well, I've never used Daywat, but my experience is similar to John's, I've never seen a chair break at the jaw as described in the article, but I have seen the bond between chair & wood fail. It seems to me that for the plastic to fail, the bond must be stronger than the chair, and with the solvents I'm using (and perhaps the type of timber?) I'm not seeing that kind of bond strength.

 

I'm not sure what Daywat Poly was, I'm guessing it's MEK but it seems that it's no longer available. I've been using Plastic Weld, as sold by C&L (and others).

 

Best

Simon

[hayfield]

Simon

 

I remember Daywat Poly from years ago and have a bottle of Plastic Weld. I use Butanone which is the brand now sold by C&L for plastic to ply use, I guess any solvent that is particularly aggressive and perhaps slightly slower in setting so the plastic dissolves into the grain of the wood. I understand that MEK now has a slightly different chemical make up which apparently makes it less effective with plastic to ply joints.

 

Hi John,

I do agree with the above, it was just the " adhesion " part we disagreed on. Well I have dug out the MRJ in question and I remember the results did surprise me at the time hence why I probably started using timber at the time ( sorry my memory is shot ).

I'm not out to score brownie points but below were the findings stated in MRJ 131, also this is probably of some interest to those thinking of taking the plunge into building their own track work.

RenderedContent-D0012ED5-B0A8-4990-B901-F5EEEBE45E0C.JPG

RenderedContent-3D790FBC-DDC4-4CCF-B072-224B72758549.JPG

ATB,

Martyn.

 

Martyn

 

Thanks very much for taking the time to upload the article, but the article states nothing about the strength of the joints as both failures were chair to rail, not chair to sleeper

 

A simple test anyone can carry out is to gently slide the tip of a scalpel blade between the chair and sleeper and gently twist, a plastic chair will come away from the ply sleeper, where as plastic to plastic will not until enough force is used slicing through the joint, which normally destroys the chair

 

These two characteristics can be used as a benefit to modelling, as stated plastic to ply allows adjustment to the position. Plastic to plastic gives a much stronger bond so can be used in areas liable to be knocked. The good news about the table is it shows how good both bonds are, so either method can be used with confidance

[3 link]

Nice one! Issue 131? We're up at 250-something now, so that's a while ago!

Well, I've never used Daywat, but my experience is similar to John's, I've never seen a chair break at the jaw as described in the article, but I have seen the bond between chair & wood fail. It seems to me that for the plastic to fail, the bond must be stronger than the chair, and with the solvents I'm using (and perhaps the type of timber?) I'm not seeing that kind of bond strength.

I'm not sure what Daywat Poly was, I'm guessing it's MEK but it seems that it's no longer available. I've been using Plastic Weld, as sold by C&L (and others).

Best

Simon

Hi Simon,

 

I think the Daywat is the same as MEK, at least it smells the same, not that I've ever been a glue sniffer : )

 

I have built a lot of turnouts using both plastic and timber sleepers over the years, and sometimes you do seem to get an awkward one that does not want to stick down. And All I do is just flood the gap a bit more, and if it really doesn't want to play ball then out comes the cyano job done. I mean this could be because of a slight film of releasing agent still present on the bottom of the chairs? Who knows, not me.

 

ATB,

 

Martyn.

 

PS. That MRJ 131 issue was a Christmas edition ( Holly adorned the front page border ), but I did not check what year.

[Simond]

I suspect the odd ones that don't stick down are just a very slightly different height (probably to do with my trackbed!) and therefore don't get quite as much pressure whilst the solvent evaporates.

 

Best

Simon

[squeaky]

Thanks for all the info so far, so much to think about!

 

I have now bought some gauges from Debs and i'm ready to place an order with C & L.

[hayfield]

Thanks for all the info so far, so much to think about!

 

I have now bought some gauges from Debs and i'm ready to place an order with C & L.

 

 

Shame you did not do it last week as the prices went up on Thursday

[MarshLane]

Shame you did not do it last week as the prices went up on Thursday

 

 

I know I've just found out ;( wanting to order 30 odd meters for the new layout

[Simond]

Check Slaters. Might be cheaper

 

Best

Simon

[MarshLane]

Check Slaters. Might be cheaper

 

Best

Simon

Simon,

Thanks - I didn't know Slaters did rail and the like! It is buried on their website, but works out almost half price! 4.5p an inch as against 8.2p an inch at C&L! Is there any difference between the two? I know Slaters track can be supplied in 18" or 36" lengths rather than C&L 1 meter, but that doesn't bother me.

 

Rich

[squeaky]

Simon,

Thanks - I didn't know Slaters did rail and the like! It is buried on their website, but works out almost half price! 4.5p an inch as against 8.2p an inch at C&L! Is there any difference between the two? I know Slaters track can be supplied in 18" or 36" lengths rather than C&L 1 meter, but that doesn't bother me.

 

Rich

 

I was going to ask the same questions, is Slaters rail as good?

 

Simon

[Simond]

Happy to have helped!

 

I have not used it but I understand it is every bit as good.  If they had any at Reading last December, I would have bought some, however I prefer C&L because 2 one-metre lengths make 3 44'6" track panels, whereas two yards makes only two panels and a load of waste.  If you're doing 60' panels, it is probably better to use Slaters.

 

best

Simon

[hayfield]

The chairs may well be ones from the same moulds (perhaps they did a deal)