RMweb Gold big jim Posted January 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2017 Chiltern have a 168 simulator in aylesbury and network rail have a 158 based ertms simulator in Machynlleth, spent a few days on that last year while on the ertms course, good fun and useful to do things that on the real railway would be difficult to simulate After we did the important stuff we had 'a play' and the operator randomly made it thick fog, snow, dusk, low adhesion etc in the space of a real time journey between Aberystwyth and Machynlleth! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 Do they use their own visual systems, or something like Trains, Microsoft Train Simulator, Railworks, or any of the other PC simulator programs? Found a company online called CORYS, they seem to make quite few. Do they loco manufacturers make their own devices? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 The flight Sims that I make do run on standard desk top style PC's, but you're right in that it's not one! About 10-15 for the normal flight/motion/controls/linkage(inputs & outputs for switches/lamps/displays) side of things, and then the same again for a full dome visual system. See here :- http://www.liquidproductions.co.uk/video/thales-gr4-simulator/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I remember being shown a flight sim around 1980, which had a huge room with a small-scale model of a piece of countryside, spanned by a gantry arrangement to "fly" a camera pod according to the flight path of the plane being simulated. I don't recall if it included any railways! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted January 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2017 I understand that Northern Ireland Railways have a simulator at Adelaide for the CAF units. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 Video of one on YouTube Used to have 3 different scale maps (models), airfield small scale, medium scale, and large/regional scale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 8, 2017 No, the real simulators are nothing like the games variants. For starters it doesn't have the standard game-specific elements like gaining wealth and resource management but also, it doesn't offer the user-imput scenario's real railways want their drivers trained for. And for the aircraft style simulators, there's input for the state of the infrastructure (bad track, flat wheels, leaves on the line) which simply isn't possible with a PC game. Remember, those real simulators run from a large mainframe type server cluster, not a desktop-power PC! The more game-like simulators don't have those game elements either, they're (supposed to be) simulators albeit not fully-featured; the one I've played around with a bit (Train Simulator) mostly lacks due to the underlying software being rather old rather than limitations of the hardware. Those things you talk about could be simulated on a single PC these days. Where the full-sized ones will always do better is due to having a mock-up of the cab, probably having a lot more money spent on the hardware, and it being rigourously specced by people very much in the know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Video of one on YouTube Used to have 3 different scale maps (models), airfield small scale, medium scale, and large/regional scale. modelboard.jpg The one I saw had a similar model but it was much larger and laid on the floor not on a wall. That would have made it more difficult to modify/repair - presumably the people doing so would have to stand on some sort of suspended platform, unless sections were removable for access from below. Train simulators ought to need less computing power than aircraft, because the path of the train is fixed so the surroundings will only ever be seen from viewpoints along the line followed by the driver's eyes. Thus the background can in principle be pre-processed to produce a video, with signals and other trains superimposed later, rather than being rendered in real time as would be necessary with an aircraft simulator where the number of viewpoints is infinite. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Do they use their own visual systems, or something like Trains, Microsoft Train Simulator, Railworks, or any of the other PC simulator programs? Found a company online called CORYS, they seem to make quite few. Do they loco manufacturers make their own devices? CORYS are based near Grenoble, I believe; they supplied our latest ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmustu Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Do they use their own visual systems, or something like Trains, Microsoft Train Simulator, Railworks, or any of the other PC simulator programs? Found a company online called CORYS, they seem to make quite few. Do they loco manufacturers make their own devices? The sim manufacturers tend to do their own graphics. The likes of Railworks,etc, don't have the functionality required, also if routes are altered, such as re-signalling, this will have to be updated on the sim, which you cannot do if using one of the PC simulator programs. CORYS have the contract to maintain the XC simulators, they also supply sims to quite a few other TOC's in the UK and abroad. Train builders don't really build their own sims, if sims are required as part of a fleet of trains then the provision of a sim will be contracted to one of the sim manufacturers. CAF own a simulator company called Lander Simulation, but they don't just do sim's for CAF built trains, they'll do it for other manufactures/TOC's as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 8, 2017 The sim manufacturers tend to do their own graphics. The likes of Railworks,etc, don't have the functionality required, also if routes are altered, such as re-signalling, this will have to be updated on the sim, which you cannot do if using one of the PC simulator programs. The tools to build and alter routes are provided with the PC program, so could be changed. The limitation is the features, as you say, and getting them all in - and getting them right, enough to be signed off for use as training, no doubt results in software that is very much more expensive than anything I'd want to (or be able to) pay for to use at home. For an example of the home PC sim, with Train Simulator semaphore signals on single tracks match the ones for your direction, so they're cleared. This is disconcerting (I've not look back to see if the same is true for colour lights, not even sure if I've got a single track route with colour lights come to think of it), and obviously would be completely unacceptable in a training situation. I believe it's due to very long-standing limitations with the original software base that would probably break a lot of other stuff if it was fixed; I expect it'll be gone in the brand new version that I think is out this year. Hopefully its hopelessly wrong implementation of wheelslip will be rewritten too. Taking the graphical part of the PC sims and using them, interfaced with the custom one doing everything else, would be a complete non-starter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 The one I saw had a similar model but it was much larger and laid on the floor not on a wall. That would have made it more difficult to modify/repair - presumably the people doing so would have to stand on some sort of suspended platform, unless sections were removable for access from below. Train simulators ought to need less computing power than aircraft, because the path of the train is fixed so the surroundings will only ever be seen from viewpoints along the line followed by the driver's eyes. Thus the background can in principle be pre-processed to produce a video, with signals and other trains superimposed later, rather than being rendered in real time as would be necessary with an aircraft simulator where the number of viewpoints is infinite. The Jaguar Sims at Lossiemouth and Coltishall had models that were flat. https://youtu.be/7Abb9dSlygE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 The Jaguar Sims at Lossiemouth and Coltishall had models that were flat. Thanks, it was Lossiemouth I saw on a visit with the school cadets. Thought it best not to name it in case still covered by an official secret, but obviously now public knowledge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 No, the real simulators are nothing like the games variants. For starters it doesn't have the standard game-specific elements like gaining wealth and resource management but also, it doesn't offer the user-imput scenario's real railways want their drivers trained for. And for the aircraft style simulators, there's input for the state of the infrastructure (bad track, flat wheels, leaves on the line) which simply isn't possible with a PC game. Remember, those real simulators run from a large mainframe type server cluster, not a desktop-power PC! It's possible that parts of the overall package could be split out. I would think that it comes in three/four sections (on a theoretical side at least, even though it's delivered as a single program). Firstly, the graphical drawing engine. Secondly, the train dynamics emulation, thirdly the game side of it, and possibly a fourth, the outside world (other trains, signal control, route control, environment, etc. Things that are not necessarily part of the game.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Western Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Yes they do. GWR have their Turbo simulator at the training centre at Reading and last year(?) they installed the 387 simulator there. Not sure where they have their HST or other traction simulators. HST and Class 150 at Westbury. IEP cabs are at or going to be installed at Plymouth and Bristol.y Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 Chiltern have a 168 simulator in aylesbury and network rail have a 158 based ertms simulator in Machynlleth, spent a few days on that last year while on the ertms course, good fun and useful to do things that on the real railway would be difficult to simulate After we did the important stuff we had 'a play' and the operator randomly made it thick fog, snow, dusk, low adhesion etc in the space of a real time journey between Aberystwyth and Machynlleth! Do you have to get checked out on each type you drive? Since you seem to drive nearly everything Jim, , you would end up in the Sims quite regularly! Also saw somewhere that a couple of countries in Europe (France, Germany?) have agreed, or are about to agree that all training can be achieved with the use of the newer generation of simulators. Is that likely to happen over here? Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 Do you have to get checked out on each type you drive? Since you seem to drive nearly everything Jim, , you would end up in the Sims quite regularly! ive only been in the aylesbury and macc set ups, you dont have to be checked out on every loco/unit in a simulator, thats for doing on the real thing, the simulator is to do things that wouldnt normally happen day to day on the real railway, things that it would also be difficult or not safe to replicate in the real world such as derailments or having a spad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 158/ERTMS simulator instructors view of the line ahead, this image is sent by a projector and mirrors to the front of the simulator (sutton brg jn) for the bloke in the cab to see the instructor also sees the various positions of the controls, the driver etc and as well as having an nrn and gsm-r radio that he can contact the driver on and vice versa the 'unit' in the picture is running in ERTMS mode as the main speedo is showing 0 and the driver interface screen shows the train doing 26kph, which is what the real thing does at the transition point on the mainline, for example the simulator can simulate a failure of transition which will bring the train to a stop and you as a driver have to contact the signaller (instructor) to obtain permission to proceed in degraded working form, practice filling out the paper orders etc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 Those graphics are terrible, looks like narrow gauge with miniature railway signals and the TPWS over speed Grid looks like a drain. How can anyone be realistically assessed on that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 through the projector it actually looks alright the one think i did find whilst 'driving' the simulators is you do lose a bit of sense of speed and distance, stopping at a station is quite hard to do Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 I've never found simulations to be very good. The rail ones on the whole don't give you a real sense of movement. I suppose the ERTMS one still makes you wear a none reflecting shirt though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted January 9, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2017 When we specified the driving simulator for the high speed trains in Taiwan we included - and got - full 3d motion as well. One of the railway's owning companies was EVA airways and they were used to having the motion replication in flight simulators and wanted it including for the trains. I 'drove' one of Hong Kong MTR's simulators and had the pleasure of experiencing a lorry falling off a bridge parapet in front of me! I haven't been involved recently but it was clear that the optical experience was getting much better. The best simulators use the real cab equipment. According to a newsletter I picked up at the time, when FGW got their Adelantes they had a simulator that could move the driver's seat to simulate breaking (sic). Possibly true but I suspect not what they meant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 According to a newsletter I picked up at the time, when FGW got their Adelantes they had a simulator that could move the driver's seat to simulate breaking (sic). Possibly true but I suspect not what they meant. Some of the newer Sims appear to be on a motion system. Link to the DB site with some pictures http://www.deutschebahn.com/presse/stuttgart/de/aktuell/presseinformationen/9575028/2015-319__pi_db_eroeffnet_neues_simulatorzentrum_karlsruhe.html Very much like a flight simulator. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted January 9, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2017 Some of the newer Sims appear to be on a motion system. Link to the DB site with some pictures http://www.deutschebahn.com/presse/stuttgart/de/aktuell/presseinformationen/9575028/2015-319__pi_db_eroeffnet_neues_simulatorzentrum_karlsruhe.html Very much like a flight simulator. I'm guessing that it's rather easier to judge accelerating and braking when you can actually feel it. The feel of how a train behaves at different speeds and on differing quality of trackwork is probably a useful thing to experience too, even when they've all had speedometers for years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ruggedpeak Posted January 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2017 The Jaguar Sims at Lossiemouth and Coltishall had models that were flat. Flew the Coltishall one whilst in the RAF Cadets. Huge hangar with the model in and a camera that moved about. No trains but bridges etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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