GWR Coach Liveries.

[Ken A.]

Hi, can anyone give me a realistic estimate of the proportion of GWR coaches that were running in Lake livery in the 1915/1916 period?  Specifically in the Blackcountry area.

[Miss Prism]

15%?

[Brassey]

it would depend on what you are modelling.  The main line would have recently new stock in Lake but a branch backwater is unlikely to have any.

 

There are pictures of complete trains in Lake in the era but also trains with a mix of chocolate/cream, brown and lake.

 

For my stock, obviously anything that was new after 1912 is in Lake, such as contemporary toplights.  For everything else, if I have a duplicate coach then I will produce it in either brown or lake - just for variety rather than on any scientific basis.

 

Hope this helps.

[Edwardian]

Hi, can anyone give me a realistic estimate of the proportion of GWR coaches that were running in Lake livery in the 1915/1916 period?  Specifically in the Blackcountry area.

 

No

 

Find as many relevant contemporary or near contemporary photographs as you can, and make an educated guess.

[PenrithBeacon]

Are there any records of how many coaches Swindon re-painted per year during that period? If there are that might give you a better idea of the changing ratios, but the records might no longer exist.

[Miss Prism]

Don't forget, except for the 1915/6 Ambulance conversions, the output of the Swindon carriage shops, for both construction and repainting, was negligible during WWI.

[Dana Ashdown]

In photographs (e.g., the Warwickshire Railways site), fixed formations almost always appear to be in one uniform livery.

 

Since crimson lake only came in in 1912, I suspect there were quite a number of brown carriages still running at the start of the Great War, but very few in chocolate & cream. I've read somewhere that a GWR restaurant car in chocolate & cream was spotted at Victoria station as late as 1914, but that must have been an exception. 

 

The best/only way to tell the difference between all brown and crimson lake in black & white images is to look for the "GWR" in the waist panel. Brown painted stock had two "GWR"s, one each over the London and Bristol crests. Crimson lake stock had one "GWR" in the waist panel over the garter crest.

 

Example: If you look carefully at the first carriage, you can see that this toplight set <http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbh123.htm>at Bentley Heath Crossing is in brown, not crimson lake.

 

Dana

[Compound2632]

In photographs (e.g., the Warwickshire Railways site), fixed formations almost always appear to be in one uniform livery.

 

Since crimson lake only came in in 1912, I suspect there were quite a number of brown carriages still running at the start of the Great War, but very few in chocolate & cream. I've read somewhere that a GWR restaurant car in chocolate & cream was spotted at Victoria station as late as 1914, but that must have been an exception. 

 

The best/only way to tell the difference between all brown and crimson lake in black & white images is to look for the "GWR" in the waist panel. Brown painted stock had two "GWR"s, one each over the London and Bristol crests. Crimson lake stock had one "GWR" in the waist panel over the garter crest.

 

Example: If you look carefully at the first carriage, you can see that this toplight set <http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbh123.htm>at Bentley Heath Crossing is in brown, not crimson lake.

 

Dana

 

So also this four-coach set photographed new in May/June 1911. Any photos of a crimson lake counter-example to illustrate Dana's statement?

 

I find the Great Western's drift towards dark red carriages intriguing - anticipating by nearly half-a-century the final British steam railway colour scheme. It's almost as if 'claret' was the natural colour of carriages: real conscious effort was needed to keep them coloured otherwise and if attention wandered they'd revert...

[Miss Prism]

I have sent Mike Musson a note about three warwickshire pages that should cite brown lake instead of crimson lake.

[Clearwater]

Miss P

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhb2224.htm

 

What colour is the above rake in? It doesn't look like brown and cream to me but I'm not great at interpreting colour on b&w photos

 

Thanks

 

David

[Miss Prism]

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhb2224.htm

 

The leading 4-coach rake is a Birmingham B-set. Steel-sided multibar non-corridor Toplights, D67 + E103 + D103 + D67 (I think!). Built March 1922. Livery is lined crimson lake, but the gloss has long gone by the time of that picture.

[Brassey]

Miss P

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhb2224.htm

 

What colour is the above rake in? It doesn't look like brown and cream to me but I'm not great at interpreting colour on b&w photos

 

Thanks

 

David

 

 

The leading 4-coach rake is a Birmingham B-set. Steel-sided multibar non-corridor Toplights, D67 + E103 + D103 + D67 (I think!). Built March 1922. Livery is lined crimson lake, but the gloss has long gone by the time of that picture.

Note that after the 4 coach set is another vehicle still in Chocolate and Cream.  This counters the view that all had gone by WW1.  I am sure I have read that some coaches never achieved the single colour scheme.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Brassey

[Miss Prism]

Note that after the 4 coach set is another vehicle still in Chocolate and Cream.  This counters the view that all had gone by WW1.  I am sure I have read that some coaches never achieved the single colour scheme.

 

In that Birdcage on Hatton bank pic (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhb2224.htm), the second rake is 7 close-coupled ancient 4-wheelers. If one assumes the date of that picture is c 1929, which is what the caption suggests, then it is probable those 4-wheelers are in 1922 or 1924 livery. Or, perhaps less likely in my view, they could still be in pre-1908 livery. That ancient set, or one like it, appears in http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrwe2851.htm, which looks a bit '1925' to me. But maybe it is a lot earlier.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Miss Prism

[K14]

That ancient set, or one like it, appears in http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrwe2851.htm, which looks a bit '1925' to me. But maybe it is a lot earlier.

 

I'd go for 1925 at the earliest, more likely a year or two later given the somewhat careworn finish. The set looks to be all Thirds, but wearing the Garter; to my eye it looks like the leading coach is carrying the post-1911 pattern with the four white 'flashes'. GWR in the waist panel above it & numbers at each end also in the waist all point to the 1923-27 'revival' panelled livery.

 

Electrically lit too - there's posh!

 

Pete S.

Edited February 13, 2017 by K14

[Penlan]

Example: If you look carefully at the first carriage, you can see that this toplight set <http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbh123.htm>at Bentley Heath Crossing is in brown, not crimson lake.

Typically the caption makes no reference at all to the stock,

bar 'a London bound express  with coaching stock carrying crimson lake livery'.

It's a short express too, 4 coaches, so not a lot of power required.

I wonder what the coach roof boards say?

[Miss Prism]

I wonder what the coach roof boards say?

 

"Soon to appear in 4mm scale"

[Compound2632]

I'd go for 1925 at the earliest, more likely a year or two later given the somewhat careworn finish. The set looks to be all Thirds, but wearing the Garter; to my eye it looks like the leading coach is carrying the post-1911 pattern with the four white 'flashes'. GWR in the waist panel above it & numbers at each end also in the waist all point to the 1923-27 'revival' panelled livery.

 

Electrically lit too - there's posh!

 

Pete S.

 

Is it not BT/T/3 x 4-compartment first or ex 1/2 composite/T/BT?

[K14]

Is it not BT/T/3 x 4-compartment first or ex 1/2 composite/T/BT?

 

 

Could well be, I was going by the absence of wider panels between the bolections. Speaking of which... it might be wishful thinking on my part, but the bolections rather look as though they have rounded top corners & squared bottoms. If so that could imply re-purposed absorbed stock, which again puts us firmly in the mid 20s.

 

P.

[Miss Prism]

If they are of GWR origin, the second 3rd looks like an S17 or S18, and the third 3rd looks a bit S16, but I can't identify the leading Brake 3rd. The removal of the lower footboard is unusual for 4-wheelers, and Pete could well be right about them being re-purposed absorbed stock. (Absorbed from where though?)

[coachmann]

Funny thing about the short-lived all over 'brown' livery and the so-called 1912 maroon livery.....The brown livery appeared to carry on with painting the roof brown up to the rain strip as on the preceding choc & cream, livery, but maroon coaches always appear to have had all-white roofs.

[K14]

If they are of GWR origin, the second 3rd looks like an S17 or S18, and the third 3rd looks a bit S16, but I can't identify the leading Brake 3rd. The removal of the lower footboard is unusual for 4-wheelers, and Pete could well be right about them being re-purposed absorbed stock. (Absorbed from where though?)

 

With absorbed stock, it's more a question of builder. Brown Marshalls supplied both the Barry & the Taff Vale & one feature of the few survivors is that they have cast brass round/square bolections,

 

Looking further at the Wood End photo,. I can see the battery box & the end of the dynamo on the brake coach, but no sign of either on any of the others - was the intention to supply the rake from the brake vehicles (similar to that allegedly fitted to the Fishguard 70' stock)?

 

Also of note on the leading Brake 3rd:—

 

(1) The short lower stepboard under the leading compartment, and the vertical grab rail above it. These would suggest that it's the Guard's compartment, but it has the quarterlight-droplight-quarterlight arrangement of a standard compartment - it could be that it has horizontal bars on the windows like the T.15.

(2) The compartment doors look to be of the round-topped pattern with matching vents, but the luggage doors have rectangular ventilator bonnets.

(3) The mouldings on the end don't look to be a lot simpler than the usual Swindon product.

 

C&W obviously never got the memo about Standardisation.

 

P.

[Miss Prism]

The brake 3rd is wide enough, but doesn't look long enough to be a T15 or T17. The mixture of bonnet styles indicates some sort of late rebuild. It's sort of T61-ish or T62-ish, but with the guards doors in a different place.

 

I think this is one for Dr Penhros!

[Miss Prism]

The brown livery appeared to carry on with painting the roof brown up to the rain strip as on the preceding choc & cream, livery

 

Interesting, Larry. But what leads you to say that?

[coachmann]

Interesting, Larry. But what leads you to say that?

Er...Nothing really. It was just something at the back of my mind from the days long ago when I painted just about everything. Old research I expect.

[K14]

Funny thing about the short-lived all over 'brown' livery and the so-called 1912 maroon livery.....The brown livery appeared to carry on with painting the roof brown up to the rain strip as on the preceding choc & cream, livery, but maroon coaches always appear to have had all-white roofs.

 

Trawling the 'usual suspects' (Russell, Harris & Slinn) for official ex-works shots didn't turn up many examples to be truly representative, but it looks like elliptical-roof stock – Dreadnoughts, Concertinas & Toplights – had all over white roofs from the outset, but low-roofed stock retained brown up to the rainstrips.

 

Concertina with full panelling:—

 

 

Source: http://www.cplproducts.net/latest-news.html

 

M.8 No. 833 in the experimental Brown livery c.1903:—

 

 

K.14 or K.15 at Llandyssul on egg-demonstration duties:—

 

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/llandyssul/

 

This sort of thing is why people model the BR era

 

Pete.