GWR Coach Liveries.

[Seanem44]

 

Trawling the 'usual suspects' (Russell, Harris & Slinn) for official ex-works shots didn't turn up many examples to be truly representative, but it looks like elliptical-roof stock – Dreadnoughts, Concertinas & Toplights – had all over white roofs from the outset, but low-roofed stock retained brown up to the rainstrips.

 

Concertina with full panelling:—

 

 

Source: http://www.cplproducts.net/latest-news.html

 

M.8 No. 833 in the experimental Brown livery c.1903:—

 

M8_822b.jpg

 

K.14 or K.15 at Llandyssul on egg-demonstration duties:—

 

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/llandyssul/

 

This sort of thing is why people model the BR era

 

Pete.

Looks like it's screaming to be Modelled. The station that is, not the poultry and egg coach.

[Compound2632]

It's only at the second time of looking that I've realised that the station is not in fact called "Llandyssul-on-Egg".

[Western Star]

 K.14 or K.15 at Llandyssul on egg-demonstration duties:—

 

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/llandyssul/

Very nice - and with two "chimneys" on the Guard's lookout to boot.

[K14]

Looks like it's screaming to be Modelled. The station that is, not the poultry and egg coach.

 

Agree, it had it all at its peak:— Rural traffic (cattle dock), industrial interest (sawmill), goods shed, loco shed, water tower and two platforms. It's just as stereotypical as Ashburton or Tetbury.

 

I think the Egg Train would make a good subject too. No idea as to the formation, but I'd guess at several K.14 or K.15 vans topped & tailed with a clerestory Brake Third and/or Brake Compo. The fancy roof boards would be a challenge.

All I could find on it was an entry in the 'Llanelly Star' for 26th March 1910:—

 

 

Very nice - and with two "chimneys" on the Guard's lookout to boot.

 

Also, the rings for the Harrison's Communication Apparatus (a length of string & a clockwork bell) are still fitted along the edge of the roof, despite the system being abandoned some years previously.

 

P.

[coachmann]

'Go to work on an Egg' was promoted one morning on a bus I was conducting circa 1963. Oldham had a bus painted blue as an experiment and it was chosen for the egg offensive. A bloke in white coat on each deck did the salesmanship and passengers traveled for free. Great...All I did was stand on the back platform enjoying the ride on what would normally be a busy route. 

[Penrhos1920]

If they are of GWR origin, the second 3rd looks like an S17 or S18, and the third 3rd looks a bit S16, but I can't identify the leading Brake 3rd. The removal of the lower footboard is unusual for 4-wheelers, and Pete could well be right about them being re-purposed absorbed stock. (Absorbed from where though?)

 

They are definitely GWR, and I'm going to stick my neck out and say that the photo is between 1899 and 1914.  Designs are probably brake 3rd, S18, S16, R4, S16, S18, brake 3rd.  Unfortunately I don't think there is a diagram for these brake thirds as built.  The brake 3rds only had 3 compartments when built, not 4 compartments as T17 was built.  They are very similar to T9, but T9 were built as 2nd class with a wider compartment spacing.  The brake 3rds have been reduced to 2 compartments, evidenced by the lower foot board below the 'middle' door and the additional handle on the lower panel.

 

Whilst removal of the lower foot board is unusual there were other rakes of Birmingham 4 wheelers that were treat the same: http://penrhos.me.uk/CoachesIntro.shtml. 

 

This is a unique rake of electrically lit 4 wheel coaches.  As K14 has mentioned there is a battery box and dynamo under the first coach.  I can also see battery boxes under coaches 2 & 3 and possibly dynamos under coaches 5 & 7.  There are no lamp tops on any of the roofs, but instead shell ventilators.  Generally one ventilator per compartment, but 2 on the R4 and brake 3rds.  So far in all of my research I've only found 9 off 4 wheelers that had electric lighting!  And 2 of these were recorded as being formed into the Birmingham Local No.1, either in 1899 or 1904.

 

Now to the loco.  517s were not the normal Birmingham area local train locos post war.  By then the 36xx and larger tanks were normal.  So I think it is pre-war.

[Brassey]

There has been a discussion on another forum that there was not a change of colour in 1912 rather the 1908 change was to lake but the varnish used at the time rendered the colour more brown.  Various accounts describe the earlier colour as "chocolate lake". As the GWR improved their understanding of how to achieve the lake, the shade became more red overtime and thus "crimson lake".

 

This theory is supported by the fact that there are no contemporary reports of the 1912 change as detailed in Great Western Way

[wagonman]

There has been a discussion on another forum that there was not a change of colour in 1912 rather the 1908 change was to lake but the varnish used at the time rendered the colour more brown.  Various accounts describe the earlier colour as "chocolate lake". As the GWR improved their understanding of how to achieve the lake, the shade became more red overtime and thus "crimson lake".

 

This theory is supported by the fact that there are no contemporary reports of the 1912 change as detailed in Great Western Way

 

 

While it's true no one has yet turned up a Board Minutes decreeing the change in 1912, it is recorded in MacDermott which is as near to a semi-official contemporary account as we can get, so I remain slightly sceptical of the new theory.

[Brassey]

This contemporary illustration shows a livery that is more red than brown and is dated 1910 and predates the implied change by 2 years

 

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-great-western-railway-corridor-carriage-date-circa-1910-105357964.html

[Mikkel]

Nice illustration. With all due respect though, could it be that the "circa 1910" guess isn't quite on target?

[wagonman]

This contemporary illustration shows a livery that is more red than brown and is dated 1910 and predates the implied change by 2 years

 

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-great-western-railway-corridor-carriage-date-circa-1910-105357964.html

 

 

The carriage is an E80 brake/compo 'concertina' type built in April 1907 (lot 1121) and so outshopped in chocolate and cream with the old number 672. The illustration has it as repainted and renumbered which is unlikely to have happened before 1912 given the usual shopping interval for front-line coaches in those days, therefore it could well be in the newly introduced crimson lake livery. As Mikkel points out, the source does say "circa 1910".

[Edwardian]

The carriage is an E80 brake/compo 'concertina' type built in April 1907 (lot 1121) and so outshopped in chocolate and cream with the old number 672. The illustration has it as repainted and renumbered which is unlikely to have happened before 1912 given the usual shopping interval for front-line coaches in those days, therefore it could well be in the newly introduced crimson lake livery. As Mikkel points out, the source does say "circa 1910".

 

I would have agreed completely with your assessment - would you say express coaches were repainted at no more than 5-year intervals? - except that if the illustration is a plate from Our Home Railways - How They Began and How They Are Worked by W. J. Gordon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/OUR-HOME-RAILWAYS-W-J-GORDON/dp/B00144UBOG) then it cannot date from after 1910 when the work was published.

[coachmann]

The carriage is an E80 brake/compo 'concertina' type built in April 1907 (lot 1121) and so outshopped in chocolate and cream with the old number 672. The illustration has it as repainted and renumbered which is unlikely to have happened before 1912 given the usual shopping interval for front-line coaches in those days, therefore it could well be in the newly introduced crimson lake livery. As Mikkel points out, the source does say "circa 1910".

It also carries black ends associated with the maroon livery. 

[Brassey]

Nice illustration. With all due respect though, could it be that the "circa 1910" guess isn't quite on target?

 

OK, this was the first illustration I could freely find on the internet but there are others showing similar livery.

 

Does anyone know of a contemporary illustration of an "all brown" carriage; I don't recall seeing one?

[Brassey]

It also carries black ends associated with the maroon livery. 

Coach, the black ends were introduced with the 1908 "brown" livery change, according to Great Western Way, so would have applied to both schemes

[coachmann]

Coach, the black ends were introduced with the 1908 "brown" livery change, according to Great Western Way, so would have applied to both schemes

Correct. I'm losing it.

[Penlan]

Correct. I'm losing it.

Your not alone ...

[wagonman]

I would have agreed completely with your assessment - would you say express coaches were repainted at no more than 5-year intervals? - except that if the illustration is a plate from Our Home Railways - How They Began and How They Are Worked by W. J. Gordon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/OUR-HOME-RAILWAYS-W-J-GORDON/dp/B00144UBOG) then it cannot date from after 1910 when the work was published.

 

 

Ah, yes I should have checked the publication date! It is available as a download at https://ia600308.us.archive.org/34/items/ourhomerailways00gordgoog/ourhomerailways00gordgoog.pdf

and on my, uncalibrated laptop, screen the colour is indeterminate – could be either.

 

Frontline coaches were revarnished more often than they were repainted. Michael Harris in his 'Great Western Coaches 1890-1954' states, with reference to this period, that "...paint surface was expected to last nine or ten years before return to Swindon for burning off and subsequent repainting." So, are we looking at an artist's impression of no.7672?

 

The mystery deepens...

[Brassey]

According to Russell quoting the Locomotive Magazine Vol. 9, the 1903 trial was "dark lake" as an experiment "to test the advisability of changing the standard scheme"

 

Now if this colour was the existing brown, why would they need to test it as there were already "brown vehicles" for which they knew the weathering and cleaning aspects already.  

 

Was it a totally different painting technique that was being tested to achieve the red colour which would have been quite difficult to create in those days.

 

Eitherway was the 1908 brown the same as the existing coach brown?

[Mikkel]

OK, this was the first illustration I could freely find on the internet but there are others showing similar livery.

 

Does anyone know of a contemporary illustration of an "all brown" carriage; I don't recall seeing one?

 

 

Ah, yes I should have checked the publication date! It is available as a download at https://ia600308.us.archive.org/34/items/ourhomerailways00gordgoog/ourhomerailways00gordgoog.pdf

and on my, uncalibrated laptop, screen the colour is indeterminate – could be either.

 

Intriguing. So the illustration does seem to be from 1910 or before. We all know about the risks of artists impressions though, not to mention scanning of the book. For comparison: On page 86 of the book (or 107 if you go by the PDF page no.) is a colour impression of the Midland loco livery, and on page 206 (227 in the PDF) we see the SECR loco livery. What do others think of those shades? The colours look a bit too deep and "chrome" to me, but again our screens may differ of course.

[Brassey]

Intriguing. So the illustration does seem to be from 1910 or before. We all know about the risks of artists impressions though, not to mention scanning of the book. For comparison: On page 86 of the book (or 107 if you go by the PDF page no.) is a colour impression of the Midland loco livery, and on page 206 (227 in the PDF) we see the SECR loco livery. What do others think of those shades? The colours look a bit too deep and "chrome" to me, but again our screens may differ of course.

 

Not to mention the fading that might have occurred over the past 100 years...

[BG John]

Ah, yes I should have checked the publication date! It is available as a download at https://ia600308.us.archive.org/34/items/ourhomerailways00gordgoog/ourhomerailways00gordgoog.pdf

Sorry to wander off topic (), but the photo of the big prairie on page 49 of the PDF is brilliant. I've never seen one from that angle, and it's a great incentive to finish the one I started 40 years ago!

 

Now back to the topic, which makes me glad I'm modelling a branch line in 1905, where brown and lake coaches are in the future

[wagonman]

According to Russell quoting the Locomotive Magazine Vol. 9, the 1903 trial was "dark lake" as an experiment "to test the advisability of changing the standard scheme"

 

Now if this colour was the existing brown, why would they need to test it as there were already "brown vehicles" for which they knew the weathering and cleaning aspects already.  

 

Was it a totally different painting technique that was being tested to achieve the red colour which would have been quite difficult to create in those days.

 

Eitherway was the 1908 brown the same as the existing coach brown?

 

 

The use of the word 'lake' implies a different paint source – as Wikipedia says "A lake pigment is a pigment manufactured by precipitating a dye with an inert binder, or "mordant", usually a metallic salt." The standard coach brown, known as Windsor Brown (not to be confused with Brown Windsor!), is, I believe, an umber earth pigment. The 1908 brown has been described in some sources (refs not to hand) as chocolate lake in which case it would not have been the same.

 

This is where my limited knowledge peters out. We desperately need Tony East who is a paint chemistry expert, now in the States...

[coachmann]

I got by with the original 1967 version of 'A Livery Register of the Great Western Railway' by the Historical Model Railway Society. The glossy colour patches in the back of the book resembled real paint and were easy to match paint to. Windsor Brown was a dark brown used up to 1903 and lighter than the brown adopted in 1904 for all-brown coach livery and again in 1922 to 1947. The 1912 lake was darker than MR lake and was very close to NER coach maroon. As I did not paint many GWR coaches in the 1912-22 livery, I used a car cellulose for cheapness, which from memory was Vauxhall AV45 (I am thinking back over 40 years here).

 

The colour swatches look very dark on white paper and so I viewed them through a small rectangle cut into black paper. Prior to the HMRS booklet we had Carters 'Britians Railway Liveries published in 1952, which again featured glossy paint swatches. The acknowledgements were a whose-who of railway historians of the period. This book was made up of extracts from contemporary sources and obviously was full of conflicting information, nevertheless, an underlying story lay therein and it was as clear in this book as anywhere else that all-over chocolate was used from circa 1903 until 1912 when maroon was adopted for virtually the remainder of the pre-group Great Western. Both publications are worth a look-see.

Edited June 7, 2017 by coachmann

[Brassey]

I got by with the original 1967 version of 'A Livery Register of the Great Western Railway' by the Historical Model Railway Society. The glossy colour patches in the back of the book resembled real paint and were easy to match paint to. Windsor Brown was a dark brown used up to 1903 and lighter than the brown adopted in 1904 for all-brown coach livery and again in 1922 to 1947. The 1912 lake was darker than MR lake and was very close to NER coach maroon. As I did not paint many GWR coaches in the 1912-22 livery, I used a car cellulose for cheapness, which from memory was Vauxhall AV45 (I am thinking back over 40 years here).

 

The colour swatches look very dark on white paper and so I viewed them through a small rectangle cut into black paper. Prior to the HMRS booklet we had Carters 'Britians Railway Liveries published in 1952, which again featured glossy paint swatches. The acknowledgements were a whose-who of railway historians of the period. This book was made up of extracts from contemporary sources and obviously was full of conflicting information, nevertheless, an underlying story lay therein and it was as clear in this book as anywhere else that all-over chocolate was used from circa 1903 until 1912 when maroon was adopted for virtually the remainder of the pre-group Great Western. Both publications are worth a look-see.

 

Again according to Russell, in October 1912 the Great Western magazine reported that gold leaf was again used instead of yellow ochre for lining and the lettering on coach roof boards was changed to red lettering on black. In comparison these are fairly minor changes, but no mention at all was made of any overall coach colour change throughout 1912!  I have an original copy of the April 1912 issue and there is nothing.  This is compared to the "furore" that appeared apparently following the 1908 change.

 

Coach, I appreciate the received wisdom and a lot that has been published but so far no primary sources have been found of this change.  It has been suggested that the only way to check is to go through all the board minutes at the national archives in Kew.  We await for someone to do this.

 

Why I am keen on finding the answer, as can been seen on my footnote, is the period I model is 1912.  I am currently building GWR 517 class number 848 which was shedded at Kidderminster in the Summer of 1912. It was one of the auto-fitted locos and one of the few that were painted to match the rolling stock; but what colour do I paint it.  I have never found the concept of the overall brown livery very attractive so it is likely to be Crimson Lake but I would like proof that it would have been that colour.