Clearwater Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 Hi In the pictures I've seen on K40s in train formations, they've generally been by the loco. Is this deliberate and reflect operational practice for them to be first and not last in the formation or merely photographer bias that you tend to see the loco and first few carriages hence pictures with full brakes at the end of the train are comparatively rare. I was thinking if the gwr practice was to include slips coaches on many services / shunt carriages on and off as the train progressed, it would make more sense to have the brake by the loco as it would be going to the ultimate destination. Reason for my query is I'm deciding whether to put a light on the rear of the one I'm converting! Many thanks in advance David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
twiggy1969 Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 sample formations taken from the comet site Sample formations 03.50 Fishguard, Swansea, Cardiff, BTK*/TK*/TK*/RC*/SLC/FK*/BG/BG/Siphon H/Meat Van Newport, Paddington *70' coaches 11.25 Cardiff, Bristol, Taunton BTK/CK/TK/BTK/TK/BG/BG Exeter, Newton Abbot I Paignton I Newton Abbot Paignton so the answer is front rear and middle mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 22, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2017 I'd take the comet formations as being far form conclusive on that front, purely because they do not specify which diagram of full brake (and in both formations the pair of full brakes would almost certainly be two different diagrams. But that said, they do seem to be mostly on the back of trains (as a group of brakes). I have just checked my formation data for the south Devon mainline October 1946 to June 1947. The non passenger portion is always on one end of the train (depending on direction it can be both next to the loco or away from it) In some parcels workings there are vans closest to the loco with the full brakes in the middle of the train, likewise milk (particularly the London to Penzance empties) can have a full brake in the centre given the make up of several portions The TPO often ran with a dedicated K40 on one end (built with an offset gangway) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
twiggy1969 Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 it was taken from their k40 instruction sheet and no one said it was conclusive Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 My answer would be that it depends where the van needs to be for operational reasons, which are many and varied. Although the Comet instruction sheets are helpful it is probably a better idea to consult the carriage working programmes where these are available and, of course, photographs. "Always" is a word not in common use by railway operators! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Hi In the pictures I've seen on K40s in train formations, they've generally been by the loco. Is this deliberate and reflect operational practice for them to be first and not last in the formation or merely photographer bias that you tend to see the loco and first few carriages hence pictures with full brakes at the end of the train are comparatively rare. I was thinking if the gwr practice was to include slips coaches on many services / shunt carriages on and off as the train progressed, it would make more sense to have the brake by the loco as it would be going to the ultimate destination. Reason for my query is I'm deciding whether to put a light on the rear of the one I'm converting! Many thanks in advance David Not necessarily. E.g. 12.50 am Paddington to Penzance: Siphon G Siphon G Siphon G 70' Parcel Van 70' New Brake Van "60 x 9" Brake Van (K40) "Bk. Van No. 13" (K40) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 Not necessarily. E.g. 12.50 am Paddington to Penzance: Siphon G Siphon G Siphon G 70' Parcel Van 70' New Brake Van "60 x 9" Brake Van (K40) "Bk. Van No. 13" (K40) Thanks - I suspect the timing of that train may explain why there are so few pictures of it! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2017 The general Instruction was that unless specially authorised, in writing, passenger trains had to be formed with a van at each end and if the vehicle was a passenger carrying van (e.g. a BTK) that vehicle had to be formed van end outwards. Thus the van section would be next to the engine if marshalled front and carrying the tail lamp if marshalled rear. But, as ChrisF has said it also depended where vans needed to be for operational reasons such as on portions or where other sorts of intermediate remarshalling took place - thereby probably explaining the formation shown in the second example in Post No.2 although in the first example in that post the BGs are marshalled at the end of the passenger part of the train although not actually at the end of the train. The 12.50 Paddington quoted in Post No.6 appears to include no passenger carrying vehicles therefore the Passenger Train marshalling Instruction would not be applicable and the Regulation which would apply would only be that in respect of the number of wheels allowed behind the brakevan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2017 For what its worth, all my three PBV's have tail lamps fitted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted January 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2017 I have only just noticed that at the back of 'The Great Western Railway in the 1930s - volume1', an album of photos by the Bristol railway man Godfrey Hewitt Soole, there are listings of the locos and carriage stock in each photo - as far as they could be identified. It must be a useful tool for those wanting to run authentic GW trains. I only spotted one K40, but there may be more. I don't have any more of the volumes, so I don't know their contents. Only Volume two is listed inside the back cover. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 Agreed Phil - it's a great resource and prompted my question originally. From my skim of the index, I'm generally only seeing full brakes at the front of trains. Of course, most of these pictures may be Saturday afternoons and I don't think there is a single shot taken at night David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Agreed Phil - it's a great resource and prompted my question originally. From my skim of the index, I'm generally only seeing full brakes at the front of trains. Of course, most of these pictures may be Saturday afternoons and I don't think there is a single shot taken at night David Might the positioning of the Full Brakes be for the following two reasons? Firstly, if they're at the front, then mail-bags and parcels can be positioned on the platform, without obstructing passengers. The same situation would obtain, were the vans at the rear. Secondly, upon arrival in London, the platform barrows don't have to be taken the full length of the platform when unloading and re-loading. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted January 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2017 Agreed Phil - it's a great resource and prompted my question originally. From my skim of the index, I'm generally only seeing full brakes at the front of trains. Of course, most of these pictures may be Saturday afternoons and I don't think there is a single shot taken at night David In quite a few cases, I think that who ever compiled the appendix had to rely on what could be identified from the photos, which show the front of the trains. So any vans at the rear may well have not been recorded. The listings are, I would guess, incomplete in quite a high proportion of the photos. Indeed most lists end with a ' - ' Night shots of moving trains would have been a major challenge for most cameras at that time - if not an impossibility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardGWR Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 I have only just noticed that at the back of 'The Great Western Railway in the 1930s - volume1', an album of photos by the Bristol railway man Godfrey Hewitt Soole, there are listings of the locos and carriage stock in each photo - as far as they could be identified. It must be a useful tool for those wanting to run authentic GW trains. I only spotted one K40, but there may be more. I don't have any more of the volumes, so I don't know their contents. Only Volume two is listed inside the back cover. Do acquire Vol 2 of Bill Soole's photos if you can. It also lists further info that was not available in Vol 1 and corrects a few errors. It is a pity there is no further volume, as I am aware that, recently, a whole new stack of G.H. Soole photos were discovered by an HMRS member. Those would be besides the pile at the NRM, of which the two volumes are but a subset. Soole is much better at shewing a wider view of a train than some contemporaries, enabling easier identification of the coaches or wagons the engine is pulling. Of course one needs the expertise of authors and GWSG members David Geen and Barry Scott! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Do acquire Vol 2 of Bill Soole's photos if you can. It also lists further info that was not available in Vol 1 and corrects a few errors. It is a pity there is no further volume, as I am aware that, recently, a whole new stack of G.H. Soole photos were discovered by an HMRS member. Those would be besides the pile at the NRM, of which the two volumes are but a subset. Soole is much better at shewing a wider view of a train than some contemporaries, enabling easier identification of the coaches or wagons the engine is pulling. Of course one needs the expertise of authors and GWSG members David Geen and Barry Scott! Better still - spend a day at the NRM and look at the collection as a whole. The GWR does dominate but there are substantial LNER and USA images. two books The two books represent only a small part of the GWR collection and the NRM do not have them all. I have picked up several Sooles over the years as he used to make prints for friends etc, that I have not found in the NRM files. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 I have picked up several Sooles over the years Fortunately there is now a topical cream. Good tip, I wonder when I can find a day to visit the NRM, thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 I've previously suggested, and had it poo poo'd on here, that the nrm should have a project to digitise its photo archive. Given the likes of colour rail do this and presumably make it pay, I really struggle to see why the nrm can't see both a public interest and commercial angle. Having had some of my own family photos commercially scanned, I don't think the cost is enormous David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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