I have got a loft

[edcayton]

I have to say that when I have been looking at houses I have seen some bl66dy awful "loft conversions" that not only failed to add value but put me right off buying the place. One of the problems is lack of headroom. By the time you have done the floor properly and insulated the roof/ceiling you have a room for midgets (sorry if that is sizeist).Now, there was a really good layout in a mag recently that was under a suspended floor. The guy accepted he could only sit or kneel and seemed fine with it. Wouldn't do me!

 

The other thing is that even with "proper" staircases some difficult manouevres (sp?) can be required when getting into the room. I'm lucky-I've got a spare room for trains. I really don't fancy any of the other alternatives.

 

Ed

[rockershovel]

I have to say that when I have been looking at houses I have seen some bl66dy awful "loft conversions" that not only failed to add value but put me right off buying the place. One of the problems is lack of headroom. By the time you have done the floor properly and insulated the roof/ceiling you have a room for midgets (sorry if that is sizeist).Now, there was a really good layout in a mag recently that was under a suspended floor. The guy accepted he could only sit or kneel and seemed fine with it. Wouldn't do me!

 

The other thing is that even with "proper" staircases some difficult manouevres (sp?) can be required when getting into the room. I'm lucky-I've got a spare room for trains. I really don't fancy any of the other alternatives.

 

Ed

That's what killed, or at least led to the indefinite suspension of my "retirement loft layout" project. We have quite a sizeable loft, about 30' x 25' at joist level with brick gables at either end, less a protruding chimney breast at one end/centre. But, it's more like 22' x 11' at a usable layout height, say 39" above the boards, with front and read roof sloping at about 1:1 (45deg). I did once look at a loft conversion; by removing the airing cupboard (a later addition over the stair) and mounting a proper stair to the gable end, with two turns in the stair I could have had a usable room about 13'x10' with North facing velux window and a clear headroom area of about 13'x6' - i.e., about 40% of the area at the top of the walls. Deduct an area for a door at the top of the stair and it would have been more like 8'x6' clear headroom in a room 8' x 10'

 

It was expensive, too. I really didn't see the value in that so built at the end instead - I got 2 rooms about 10' x12' for a cost about 20% more, and STILL had the loft and airing cupboard.

 

The loft was initially attractive but the longer I looked at it, the less attractive it became

[rockershovel]

I have to say that when I have been looking at houses I have seen some bl66dy awful "loft conversions" that not only failed to add value but put me right off buying the place. One of the problems is lack of headroom. By the time you have done the floor properly and insulated the roof/ceiling you have a room for midgets (sorry if that is sizeist).Now, there was a really good layout in a mag recently that was under a suspended floor. The guy accepted he could only sit or kneel and seemed fine with it. Wouldn't do me!

 

The other thing is that even with "proper" staircases some difficult manouevres (sp?) can be required when getting into the room. I'm lucky-I've got a spare room for trains. I really don't fancy any of the other alternatives.

 

Ed

http://modelrailwayengineer.com/wheres-best-build-model-railway/

[teaky]

When we had our (newly built) house assessed for Rateable Value the Assessing Officer (or whatever her job title was) explained that assessment is based on what they see at the time of assessment (hence I don't have a garage for rating purposes because it hadn't been built at that time).  However when the property changes hands any changes of which the Planning Authorities are aware are supposed to be taking into consideration and the Rateable Value should be reassessed.

 

Our original plans included the roof space as habitable space but for various reasons I took the staircase to it, and associated fir resistant doors out of the plans and simply had a loft ladder fitted - advising the planning people accordingly and stating that the roof space would only be use as an attic for storage.  This was checked by the Building Inspector on his sign-off visit and also checked by the Assessing Officer on her visit and she explained that if I had followed my original plan to have a model railway up there it would count as habitable space and would not only count as that for rating assessment purposes but should have the correct access for habitable space.  Things might have changed since then but I suspect they haven't.  (incidentally my 'attic' has a full load bearing floor, is fully plastered, has lighting, a couple of gable windows and two Velux windows but it is still an attic - and that shows!)

Thank you for the information.  I have edited my earlier post slightly in order to avoid misleading anyone.

 

Perhaps I ought to have stuck with the term bedroom, i.e. it cannot be a bedroom if there is only a loft ladder?

 

The implication of what the Assessing Officer said to you appears to be that the only option for a model railway room is a proper loft conversion complete with stairs and in compliance with Building Regs.  Interesting.

[rockershovel]

Have you considered doing a proper loft conversion Keith?  By which I mean complying with Building Regulations.  That would create a "habitable room" which in most cases increases the value of your house.  (It frequently tops the list of what estate agents suggest people do rather than what most people seem to think.)

 

There will no doubt be people on here who disagree but if I was considering buying a house and someone had done a substantial piece of work like a loft conversion or extension I'd want to see the certificate from Building Control confirming that the structure was still sound and that any new work was up to scratch.  (Your insurers might take a similar view.)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2324953/End-line-model-railway-fan-housing-association-demands-dismantle-10-000-train-set-attic-health-safety-grounds.html

[The Stationmaster]

Thank you for the information.  I have edited my earlier post slightly in order to avoid misleading anyone.

 

Perhaps I ought to have stuck with the term bedroom, i.e. it cannot be a bedroom if there is only a loft ladder?

 

The implication of what the Assessing Officer said to you appears to be that the only option for a model railway room is a proper loft conversion complete with stairs and in compliance with Building Regs.  Interesting.

 

According to what both she and the Planning (sorry, actually Building) Inspector said is that if the roof space is used as habitable space access has to comply with the Building Regulations - which means a proper staircase and that staircase has to be protected top and bottom by fire doors.  Although not mentioned by the Building Inspector the Assessing Officer was the one who said it would count as habitable space if used for a model railway and of course exactly the same applies if it is used for a bedroom - and if it becomes habitable space then a loft ladder is not permitted under the Building Regulations.

 

Legally and technically as I understand the advice I was given - and what has happened elsewhere in the past - use of a roof space for a model railway makes it habitable space so it must comply with the relevant parts of the Building Regulations.

[chris p bacon]

There are many Spacesaver stairs available now,  they comply with regs but don't take up the space a "normal" stairs do.

 

Interesting about the valuations officer, it used to be a seperate part of Government but since Local authorities have taken over it is a revenue earning exercise.  A typical example is one in Sandy High St I built 9 years ago, it had reached basic shell contruction, the roof was on but there were no windows and doors and it was bare block work with no internal walls, the upstairs was going to be studwork and so was one large open area. Central Bedfordshire Council made a spot visit and decided that it was habitable and issued a council tax notice for it. if that wasn't taking the 'P' it was the classification of Band 'D' that cheesed me off more, 3 bedrooms should be 'C' but CBC's reason was as there were no walls then I could easily add another room    It was pointed out that as I was opposite the oldest house in sandy I had been subjected to the strictest planning possible and that 3 beds was the max that could be built.....I won....

 

For info CBC are the 2nd most expensive for council tax as it is. (I have 3 beds and pay £2600)

 

Rant over.....

[teaky]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2324953/End-line-model-railway-fan-housing-association-demands-dismantle-10-000-train-set-attic-health-safety-grounds.html

Yeah, that one's been posted before.

 

It is unfortunate that the source is the Daily Mail since this immediately calls into question the accuracy and completeness of the reporting.  For example, the paragraph "We have written to Mr Burdock to explain that all items in the loft space must be removed so that we can gain access and reinstate the timber members to ensure the property is safe." hints at there having been some structural changes.

 

The fact that he is a retired builder means little. He may never have done this kind of work before and is unlikely to be up to date with current regulations.

 

Another case of this rag continuing to blather on with a topic which ticks one of the items on its own agenda.  Health & Safety in this case.  I'm surprised they missed the opportunity to blame it on the EU. 

[royaloak]

A badly done conversion will not only reduce the value of your house, but you wont be able to see what damage is being done to the roof/ ceiling timbers (condensation, lack of ventilation etc) and it will also make it more difficult to sell in the future.

 

A proper certified conversion will cost more now but avoid all these issues in the future.

[Northroader]

I'm lucky in having a loft which was done properly with the regs, and first point is, yes, it is expensive. Get a specialist, not a jobbing builder. The main thing is the floor, which has to be treated as load bearing, it already been said that ceiling construction, even if with trusses for roof support, is inadequate. There's a formula for setting a limit for the deflection of the floor joists under a specified load per area. It means that the joists, (which are doubling as the ceiling support) will need tying to H section steel beams running the length of the loft to be supported on the end walls. My builder put two of these, one either side of the habitable space, which were quite hefty, over a foot deep. Some folks down the road using the local builder ended up with about a dozen steel beams of a smaller section under the floor, following a long delay after the building imspector rejected the job, without supports.

Roof insulation allowing for ventilation, ok, electrics and heating straightforward. You do need a proper staircase from the landing rather than any type of folding ladder, which will take something off the usable space. You do need fire retardant doors, not just on the loft entrance, but on every other room in the house, with exceptions for say bathrooms. Also live fire alarms on every floor.

Consider the final area you will have, the roof slopes inwards, pushing the usable space in to under the central ridge, so the floor area can be good, but shrinking down at waist height and more so at head height. The other thing is placing roof lights, say Velux, which will also determine how you use your space.

[teaky]

I'm lucky in having a loft which was done properly with the regs, and first point is, yes, it is expensive. Get a specialist, not a jobbing builder. The main thing is the floor, which has to be treated as load bearing, it already been said that ceiling construction, even if with trusses for roof support, is inadequate. There's a formula for setting a limit for the deflection of the floor joists under a specified load per area. It means that the joists, (which are doubling as the ceiling support) will need tying to H section steel beams running the length of the loft to be supported on the end walls. My builder put two of these, one either side of the habitable space, which were quite hefty, over a foot deep. Some folks down the road using the local builder ended up with about a dozen steel beams of a smaller section under the floor, following a long delay after the building imspector rejected the job, without supports.

Roof insulation allowing for ventilation, ok, electrics and heating straightforward. You do need a proper staircase from the landing rather than any type of folding ladder, which will take something off the usable space. You do need fire retardant doors, not just on the loft entrance, but on every other room in the house, with exceptions for say bathrooms. Also live fire alarms on every floor.

Consider the final area you will have, the roof slopes inwards, pushing the usable space in to under the central ridge, so the floor area can be good, but shrinking down at waist height and more so at head height. The other thing is placing roof lights, say Velux, which will also determine how you use your space.

Out of interest, what ratio of floor area to window area do you have (approximately) and do you think you would change it?

[young37215]

I'm interested in your use of YBS multiquilt (Superquilt?).  What sequence of layers did you use, how deep are your rafters, how much depth of insulation did you save and do you know the U value achieved?  When I looked at this recently it didn't seem to be saving me very much depth.  Maybe I made an error somewhere or it may simply be down to the depth of rafters.

Rafters 100mm deep, Superquilt multi layer 40mm thick is stapled onto the face of the rafters and pinned in place by plaster board forcing it in between the rafters leaving 60mm of air gap ventilation on the cold side. YBS recommend that 25mm gap left on the room side to maximise thermal efficiency but, because of height constraints, I did not want to do this. YBS advised that loss of efficiency is 5 - 10% so I accepted more height and less thermal efficiency.

 

U values difficult to find for foil backed products, there does not appear to be a definitive view. YBS state Superquilt has minimum equivalent rockwool type of 100mm, probably more! On the basis that I have not touched the current insulation in my roof, I have no Building Control issues and was happy to work with Superquilt which based on the short time it has been in situ, appears to work pretty well to me. Room is warm and radiators are not working very hard to maintain temperature.   

[teaky]

Rafters 100mm deep, Superquilt multi layer 40mm thick is stapled onto the face of the rafters and pinned in place by plaster board forcing it in between the rafters leaving 60mm of air gap ventilation on the cold side. YBS recommend that 25mm gap left on the room side to maximise thermal efficiency but, because of height constraints, I did not want to do this. YBS advised that loss of efficiency is 5 - 10% so I accepted more height and less thermal efficiency.

 

U values difficult to find for foil backed products, there does not appear to be a definitive view. YBS state Superquilt has minimum equivalent rockwool type of 100mm, probably more! On the basis that I have not touched the current insulation in my roof, I have no Building Control issues and was happy to work with Superquilt which based on the short time it has been in situ, appears to work pretty well to me. Room is warm and radiators are not working very hard to maintain temperature.   

Thanks for the info.

 

Did your local Building Control Inspector sign this off then?

[Northroader]

Teaky, here's a rough plan, and some photos of my pigsty. I don't think I'd want to alter it if I was starting again, but it's worth taking note of how the windows affect access aisles.edit: I've missed some noughts off the big velux, 1100 x 700.

[rockershovel]

Re #33, I'm no particular fan of the Daily Wail but it's clear in this case, that the neighbours have made a legitimate complaint which has been upheld by the Housing Association and the local authority

[rockershovel]

Re #35, I have two very substantial timbers spanning the walls (interior and exterior) installed as part of a reinforcement to the roof, which were signed off as load bearing for any possible future loft conversion, so I'm not concerned by the load bearing capacity of the existing joists.

 

The "fire retardant doors" was what killed it off, for me. The house is an early 1930s house with its original internal carpentry in good, complete condition, and I went to a lot of trouble to find reclaimed doors which matched when I did the extension. The fire retardant door into the garage is modern, but it is hidden behind the door from the utility area so it doesn't matter. But I wasn't going to start messing about with every door in the house.

[Bernard Lamb]

 

The "fire retardant doors" was what killed it off, for me. The house is an early 1930s house with its original internal carpentry in good, complete condition, and I went to a lot of trouble to find reclaimed doors which matched when I did the extension. The fire retardant door into the garage is modern, but it is hidden behind the door from the utility area so it doesn't matter. But I wasn't going to start messing about with every door in the house.

I mentioned in a previous post about possible extra costs when fire doors are involved. On a quick count I had to fit 8 new doors when converting the loft. Quite a financial hit.

On the topic of stairs. In almost all houses built since 1914 there is not enough room to add a second stair above the original and obtain sufficient head room. There is simply not enough width. The solution is to take about 500mm out of one bedroom. More expense, not just the cost of the stairs but knocking down and replacing the wall(s) and of course yet another fire door.

Bernard

[hayfield]

That's what killed, or at least led to the indefinite suspension of my "retirement loft layout" project. We have quite a sizeable loft, about 30' x 25' at joist level with brick gables at either end, less a protruding chimney breast at one end/centre. But, it's more like 22' x 11' at a usable layout height, say 39" above the boards, with front and read roof sloping at about 1:1 (45deg). I did once look at a loft conversion; by removing the airing cupboard (a later addition over the stair) and mounting a proper stair to the gable end, with two turns in the stair I could have had a usable room about 13'x10' with North facing velux window and a clear headroom area of about 13'x6' - i.e., about 40% of the area at the top of the walls. Deduct an area for a door at the top of the stair and it would have been more like 8'x6' clear headroom in a room 8' x 10'

 

It was expensive, too. I really didn't see the value in that so built at the end instead - I got 2 rooms about 10' x12' for a cost about 20% more, and STILL had the loft and airing cupboard.

 

The loft was initially attractive but the longer I looked at it, the less attractive it became

 

 

I do agree with you about access issues if you are using ladders to access the loft (they are OK for putting the odd box up for storage) as we get older. Then there is the issue with both heat and cold, possibly damp, then head room.  To be quite frank if doing a fully compliant loft room With dormer roof is out of the question, in my opinion you are far better off with a decent (damp proof)shed in the garden, perhaps smaller than the loft but a lot easier to access. Look for s/h ones or build with reclaimed materials if funds are short

[rockershovel]

Our ceilings are high by later standards - 9' or 9'6" depending on where you are in the house - and we have a vertical gable end. I concluded that we could accommodate an extra flight with enough headroom but it would probably mean sacrificing the boxroom. This also meant that as all our internal walls are brick, we could confine the fire doors to one inside the box room, and one at the top of the stairs.

 

We seemed to be going in circles at this point, so I just shelved the whole thing.

[chris p bacon]

as all our internal walls are brick, we could confine the fire doors to one inside the box room, and one at the top of the stairs.

Picking up on this for a comment about fire doors.

 

It's not the build standard that determines where a fire door goes, the idea is that it gives a 30 minute protected way out of the house down the stairwell to an outside door, so all doors that are on a landing or hallway would have to be changed.

The alternative to this is an escape through the roof window but the location of this is very restricted as well as the opening size. It has to be a Fire Egress rated window within the vicinity of the gutter (can't remember the measurement) so that emergency services can access by ladder, having one on the rear elevation usually precludes this as a means of egress as getting to the rear may be compromised. If you are able to locate one on the front then the need for multiple fire doors throughout the house may not be required.  

[Bernard Lamb]

To follow on from the last post.

Some local authorities do not allow dormer windows on the street side of a roof.

If that is the case then an exit widow that can be reached by the fire service is going to be hard to fit.

The other factor regarding fire doors is that if you do a loft conversion that turns a two story house into a three story then all manner of extra regulations need to be checked.

Reminds me of my working days. Sixty minute fire rated doors with vision panels. intumescent strip by the mile and very expensive. You can also run into problems in having to upgrade the hinges.

Bernard

[The Stationmaster]

At the risk of boring those who have seen them before here are the pre-assembled roof trusses qith the rafters  and joists which went into out roof space and and I have some where the loading spec for those joists (which is the same as that for the first floor).  The floored area in the finished job is between the uprights visible here between the joists and rafters.  Just look at the depth of the timber in both joists and rafters - that is for load bearing construction, not just holding up a ceiling.

 

[chris p bacon]

Attic trusses, they're whats above the railway room to give lady Bacon her walk in wardrobe, they were cheaper than buying furniture!

[Northroader]

Here's two photos of the conversion when it was happening. The first shows one of the "steels" being lifted. There are four of these, in two pairs running the length of the roof. They fit into pockets cut into the end gable walls, and fishplated together at the middle. They form the support to the attic floor joists. It might help understand why, if the job is done correctly, it is expensive. You can see the new velux windows are already fitted. Also interesting is how they work. A scaffolding tower was put up at the rear of the house, some tiles removed, and this was the access to do the job, which kept the house clean. These guys specialise in loft conversions, and far better than a jobbing builder.

The other picture gives a better idea of the space available with the job well progressed, and most of the insulation done. There are cupboard doors to storage space either side of the main door, and I had hatches in the side walls which access the roof space for a bit more storage. The steels pass under these doors in the casing.

I feel the cost of the job did add to the value of the house. 

[hayfield]

Here's two photos of the conversion when it was happening. The first shows one of the "steels" being lifted. There are four of these, in two pairs running the length of the roof. They fit into pockets cut into the end gable walls, and fishplated together at the middle. They form the support to the attic floor joists. It might help understand why, if the job is done correctly, it is expensive. You can see the new velux windows are already fitted. Also interesting is how they work. A scaffolding tower was put up at the rear of the house, some tiles removed, and this was the access to do the job, which kept the house clean. These guys specialise in loft conversions, and far better than a jobbing builder.

IMG_0876.JPG

The other picture gives a better idea of the space available with the job well progressed, and most of the insulation done. There are cupboard doors to storage space either side of the main door, and I had hatches in the side walls which access the roof space for a bit more storage. The steels pass under these doors in the casing.

IMG_0877.JPG

I feel the cost of the job did add to the value of the house. You could get into an ethical discussion on why I've filled it up with railway junk, rather than a family of Syrian refugees, so best not go there.

 

I think the costing works out several ways, firstly its the increased value the room has put on the house especially in the South East, whilst initially the increased property value may not equal its cost, housing inflation especially with low interest rates will eventually recoup the difference. Secondly if the room is connected to the central heating system over time hundreds of £'s  will be saved. Cheaper electrical installation and above all much better security, not to say models less likely to suffer from damp.