Unidentified Location and/or Loco/Date

[The Stationmaster]

We move on to 1964 now. I have this Blue Pullman as passing through, what I have recorded as, Reading station on 12 August 1964

 

Is there any way to tell if it is the Bristol or South Wales Pullman?

 

RRB3_20_20151204_0021_800.jpg

 

Not Reading but Swindon, and on the Up Main Line.  Only way you'd tell the Bristol from the South Wales is to read the  destination screens on the side of the trains - the staff always seemed to be good at winding them to the correct place for each working.

[The Border Reiver]

Not Reading but Swindon, and on the Up Main Line.  Only way you'd tell the Bristol from the South Wales is to read the  destination screens on the side of the trains - the staff always seemed to be good at winding them to the correct place for each working.

 

Thanks for that Mike. I had just bunked Reading shed and was on my way to Westbury.

 

The next day 13 August 1964, I was in the Welsh valleys again on my way from Abercynon to Barry. I have this 5600 class loco No. 5686 recorded as passing through Pontypridd station. Using Google images I can't seem to find a corresponding view at Pontypridd station.

 

[Andy Kirkham]

Thanks for that Mike. I had just bunked Reading shed and was on my way to Westbury.

 

The next day 13 August 1964, I was in the Welsh valleys again on my way from Abercynon to Barry. I have this 5600 class loco No. 5686 recorded as passing through Pontypridd station. Using Google images I can't seem to find a corresponding view at Pontypridd station.

 

RRB3_30_20151204_0035_800.jpg

 

This lovely picture is actually Abercynon

 

https://flic.kr/p/Rvwe4v

Edited February 21, 2017 by Andy Kirkham

[The Stationmaster]

One more from 28 August 1963. 5037 Monmouth Castle in a station siding which I have down as Swansea.

 

RRA6_08_20170127_0009_800.jpg

 

Popping back to this one a picture of mine taken last summer appeared in another thread showing Maliphant Sdgs and mention was made of how things have changed at Swansea and the picture below shows at extreme left part of the spot where the 'Castle was standing in your pic -

[Rivercider]

Thanks for that Mike. I had just bunked Reading shed and was on my way to Westbury.

 

The next day 13 August 1964, I was in the Welsh valleys again on my way from Abercynon to Barry. I have this 5600 class loco No. 5686 recorded as passing through Pontypridd station. Using Google images I can't seem to find a corresponding view at Pontypridd station.

 

RRB3_30_20151204_0035_800.jpg

This was the view at Abercynon in 1983

Class 116 set C313 waits at Abercynon with the 08.42 Cardiff Central to Merthyr Tydfil as GPO staff unload mail, 24/5/83

 

cheers

[The Johnster]

Thanks for that Mike. I had just bunked Reading shed and was on my way to Westbury.

 

The next day 13 August 1964, I was in the Welsh valleys again on my way from Abercynon to Barry. I have this 5600 class loco No. 5686 recorded as passing through Pontypridd station. Using Google images I can't seem to find a corresponding view at Pontypridd station.

 

RRB3_30_20151204_0035_800.jpg

 

 

 

Abercynon, and the 56 is getting to grips with things on the up Aberdare road, the platform road of this side of the island platform being the up Merthyr, with the down Merthyr and the shed behind the cameraman.  Immediately behind him to the right, the Aberdare road begins to curve away and the Merthyr begins the 1 in 38 ascent towards Quaker's Yard (there is a Society of Friends cemetery there).

[The Johnster]

Abercynon, and the 56 is getting to grips with things on the up Aberdare road, the platform road of this side of the island platform being the up Merthyr, with the down Merthyr and the shed behind the cameraman.  Immediately behind him to the right, the Aberdare road begins to curve away and the Merthyr begins the 1 in 38 ascent towards Quaker's Yard (there is a Society of Friends cemetery there).

 

if you were travelling from Abercynon to Barry, you probably took the very good photo while waiting for the train!

[The Border Reiver]

This lovely picture is actually Abercynon

 

https://flic.kr/p/Rvwe4v

 

Ah...  Thanks for that Andy. No wonder I could not find any matching images of Pontypridd!

[The Border Reiver]

After Barry, I returned to Cardiff and took this shot of D1062 Western Courier, at what I now know is Cardiff General station.

 

 

I think I then headed down Bute Road to Cardiff East Dock shed. Before arriving at the shed, I came upon this pannier tank in distress. A motley crew are in the process of trying to re-rail the loco with a variety of tools, including a sack barrow!

 

This photo was taken before I got to the shed and I'm not sure if I went somewhere else before...  can anyone identify the location?

 

Edit: Just found some more notes which say the photo was taken between Cardiff and Llanelli

 

Edited February 22, 2017 by The Border Reiver

[The Johnster]

Western Courier standing in platform 2 Cardiff General with an up Paddington train.  The pannier is I know not where, but I am pretty confident it's not in Cardiff and most definitely nowhere between Cardiff General and East Dock shed whatever route you took, and you say down Bute Road which implies through the main dock gate by the Mountstuart Hotel and a walk across the docks!   I think you either went somewhere else between the General and East Dock or took this shot on another occasion.  

 

Terraced houses and a council estate on a hill in the background might be Risca or Rogerstone, but I would not care to pin my colours to either of those masts!  Assuming the hapless pannier to be facing smokebox first up the valley as was usual, and there is what looks like running lines behind it, suggests the north end of Rogerstone, still a busy marshalling yard in those days but soon to be abandoned.   There was no passenger service in the Western Valley in 1964 and you would have had to have travelled by bus if you had no independent means of transport, and then done some exploring on foot, which I'm sure you'd have remembered.

 

I am sure someone will put us out of our misery...

Edited February 22, 2017 by The Johnster

[The Border Reiver]

Western Courier standing in platform 2 Cardiff General with an up Paddington train.  The pannier is I know not where, but I am pretty confident it's not in Cardiff and most definitely nowhere between Cardiff General and East Dock shed whatever route you took, and you say down Bute Road which implies through the main dock gate by the Mountstuart Hotel and a walk across the docks!   I think you either went somewhere else between the General and East Dock or took this shot on another occasion.  

 

Terraced houses and a council estate on a hill in the background might be Risca or Rogerstone, but I would not care to pin my colours to either of those masts!  Assuming the hapless pannier to be facing smokebox first up the valley as was usual, and there is what looks like running lines behind it, suggests the north end of Rogerstone, still a busy marshalling yard in those days but soon to be abandoned.   There was no passenger service in the Western Valley in 1964 and you would have had to have travelled by bus if you had no independent means of transport, and then done some exploring on foot, which I'm sure you'd have remembered.

 

I am sure someone will put us out of our misery...

 

Just found some more notes which say the photo was taken between Cardiff and Llanelli

Edited February 22, 2017 by The Border Reiver

[Rivercider]

Just found some more notes which say the photo was taken between Cardiff and Llanelli

Can you make out the number of the pannier tank, that might help narrow down the location?

 

cheers 

[Fat Controller]

Doesn't look like anywhere around Llanelli to me.

[The Johnster]

Doesn't look like anywhere around Llanelli to me.

 

 

 

Can you make out the number of the pannier tank, that might help narrow down the location?

 

cheers 

 

 

 

Best I can make the number out as is 9627 (or 17, or 47), but the harder I look or the more I blow it up the more my eyes start going funny.  

 

But I think it just might be Llanelli, much as I don't want to go against Fat Controller's opinion.  There is a spot  about a quarter mile east of the station, on the straight between there and Llandeilo Junction, where the old goods yard began to narrow before going under the Trostre Road bridge, that has houses like those, the terraced in the foreground and semis up a hill behind.  I think there's a school on the hill just away to the right of the photo.  I just can't relate it to what I remember of the track layout thereabouts, although it might have changed a good bit between '64 and the early 70s when I knew it, or the photo is taken from the south side of the railway and the main lines are the running lines with fresh ballast behind the loco.  9677, which this could be if you wanted to convince yourself, was withdrawn from Llanelli in '65

 

Can't think of anywhere else between Cardiff and Llanelli via Cockett or via District Line that looked like that.  Please, someone, put us out of our misery!!!

Edited February 23, 2017 by The Johnster

[Fat Controller]

Best I can make the number out as is 9627 (or 17, or 47), but the harder I look or the more I blow it up the more my eyes start going funny.  

 

But I think it just might be Llanelli, much as I don't want to go against Fat Controller's opinion.  There is a spot  about a quarter mile east of the station, on the straight between there and Llandeilo Junction, where the old goods yard began to narrow before going under the Trostre Road bridge, that has houses like those, the terraced in the foreground and semis up a hill behind.  I think there's a school on the hill just away to the right of the photo.  I just can't relate it to what I remember of the track layout thereabouts, although it might have changed a good bit between '64 and the early 70s when I knew it, or the photo is taken from the south side of the railway and the main lines are the running lines with fresh ballast behind the loco.  9677, which this could be if you wanted to convince yourself, was withdrawn from Llanelli in '65

 

Can't think of anywhere else between Cardiff and Llanelli via Cockett or via District Line that looked like that.  Please, someone, put us out of our misery!!!

I know the spot you mean, roughly where the old Dafen branch used to cross the main line on the level. However, the houses you describe face the railway, rather than have their backs to it (Langland Mews), whilst there are a lot more houses on Bigyn Hill than are evident in the photo. I've tried to link to Google Earth ( https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Llanelli/@51.6729185,-4.1518661,288m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x486ee513a09eaa5d:0x80e69b610dce6660!8m2!3d51.680886!4d-4.160248?hl=en)

Though there are less tracks visible than there would have been, the form of the goods yard fan is visible, whilst the Dafen branch was roughly where that footbridge is.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Fat Controller

[The Border Reiver]

Best I can make the number out as is 9627 (or 17, or 47), but the harder I look or the more I blow it up the more my eyes start going funny.  

 

But I think it just might be Llanelli, much as I don't want to go against Fat Controller's opinion.  There is a spot  about a quarter mile east of the station, on the straight between there and Llandeilo Junction, where the old goods yard began to narrow before going under the Trostre Road bridge, that has houses like those, the terraced in the foreground and semis up a hill behind.  I think there's a school on the hill just away to the right of the photo.  I just can't relate it to what I remember of the track layout thereabouts, although it might have changed a good bit between '64 and the early 70s when I knew it, or the photo is taken from the south side of the railway and the main lines are the running lines with fresh ballast behind the loco.  9677, which this could be if you wanted to convince yourself, was withdrawn from Llanelli in '65

 

Can't think of anywhere else between Cardiff and Llanelli via Cockett or via District Line that looked like that.  Please, someone, put us out of our misery!!!

 

Hi Johnster,

 

Thanks for that...

 

I have done a high definition scan and I am 99% sure it is 9677. The only reason I would have gone to Llanelli was to bunk the shed and would have headed down New Dock Road. It's possible that I saw the loco from a distance and went and took a photo of it. Surprisingly, I didn't take any photos of the shed area. Possibly got chucked out.

[The Johnster]

More conflicting evidence, then.  Truth is, I don't know where the photo is taken with any certainty, only where it isn't, or what the number of the pannier is, but the temptation to go for 9677 because that backs my theory that it is Llanelli is strong enough to make me doubt any acceptance by me that 9677 is indeed the loco would in turn make me unsure that I was viewing the evidence with the correct amount of subjective dispassion.  I actually went to sleep thinking about it last night and ended up dreaming about Llanelli; this is getting under my skin!  Fat Controller has the spot I mean; the trackbed of the Dafen is surprisingly clear on Google Earth!

 

Even if we accept that the loco is 9677, that does not confirm the site as Llanelli, as the shed provided pilots for yards as far away as Kidwelly or Llangenneth.

 

New Dock Road is some distance from the spot I think this might be, about 300 yards south and separated by small factories and industrial sites, so I cannot see how Riever might have spottted the casualty and diverted from his shed bunking expedition.  There are no hills south of the main line anywhere between Lougher Bridge and Carmarthen.  And I cannot find anywhere on Google Earth that fits downline from Llanelli either; I thought I could remember somewhere that looked a bit like that running into Pembrey, but...

 

I'm going to stop thinking about it now because somebody will tell us sooner or later and it's starting to drive me nuts.  Sorry, Riever, I did my best!

[The Border Reiver]

More conflicting evidence, then.  Truth is, I don't know where the photo is taken with any certainty, only where it isn't, or what the number of the pannier is, but the temptation to go for 9677 because that backs my theory that it is Llanelli is strong enough to make me doubt any acceptance by me that 9677 is indeed the loco would in turn make me unsure that I was viewing the evidence with the correct amount of subjective dispassion.  I actually went to sleep thinking about it last night and ended up dreaming about Llanelli; this is getting under my skin!  Fat Controller has the spot I mean; the trackbed of the Dafen is surprisingly clear on Google Earth!

 

Even if we accept that the loco is 9677, that does not confirm the site as Llanelli, as the shed provided pilots for yards as far away as Kidwelly or Llangenneth.

 

New Dock Road is some distance from the spot I think this might be, about 300 yards south and separated by small factories and industrial sites, so I cannot see how Riever might have spottted the casualty and diverted from his shed bunking expedition.  There are no hills south of the main line anywhere between Lougher Bridge and Carmarthen.  And I cannot find anywhere on Google Earth that fits downline from Llanelli either; I thought I could remember somewhere that looked a bit like that running into Pembrey, but...

 

I'm going to stop thinking about it now because somebody will tell us sooner or later and it's starting to drive me nuts.  Sorry, Riever, I did my best!

 

Thanks for all your hard work Johnster...  I have put a copy of the photo on the 'Memories of Llanelli' Facebook page asking if anyone recognises the area..

[The Border Reiver]

Continuing my railrover, the next day 14 August 1964, I visited Cardiff East Dock shed, Newport Ebbw Junction shed and Pontypool Road shed. I then took these photos at a shed (or different sheds) and have no record of where. My next recorded location was Hereford, so they are somewhere between Pontypool Road and Hereford (or Gloucester/Worcester area).

 

This is an unknown double chimney Castle of which there not many left by this date. I was wondering if it was 7029 Clun Castle?

 

 

This one is a 6100 class and I think the number is 6155. If so, it was shedded at Worcester on that date.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

Probably not Clun Castle, which I never remember being in the condition this loco has been allowed to deteriorate into.  The coupling rod is missing, and she has an air of semi-dereliction about her.  The same applies to the 61xx, and with a 56xx going about it's business in the background I'm thinking this may be Pontypool Road and the prairie actually a 5101.

[The Stationmaster]

These two pictures are both at Pontypool Road shed as 'The Johnster' has already identified.  Judging by the oil can on the running plate I suspect the 'Castle' might be, or have been, heading south towards a Welsh scrappie and was either stopped for examination or suffered a problem, it's definitely facing south.

 

 

I think I might have found the answer for the derailed pannier in Post No.59 and it fits with 'just before I got to the shed' as I'm reasonably sure that it is at the neck end of Neath Court Sart shed (i.e the end nearest Neath East Signalbox and, further on, Neath station) - the track layout is correct and the background buildings match fairly exactly, complete with the hill in the background

Edited February 24, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[Fat Controller]

Well done, Mike. I'd dismissed Llanelli, whilst the only location in Burry Port, would have had the diverging sidings on the left, whilst the 'twmp' would have had St Mary's church on it.

[The Johnster]

Well done for identifying Court Sart, Mike; I can stop worrying about it now!  I'd discounted Neath as my mental image of it demands a big mountain in the background, but looking at the area on OS map shows that from some angles this need not be so!  In fact the skyline to the right of the pannier's bunker is probably the big mountain.  

 

I suspect both locos at Pontypool Road were scrappers, with the coupling rods removed and chucked in the bunkers, a common enough site everywhere in 1964.

Edited February 24, 2017 by The Johnster

[The Border Reiver]

I have done a bit investigating to try and identify the Castle at Pontypool Road shed.

There were 19 Castles with double chimneys. I eliminated those that were cut up before the date of the photo 14-8-1964 and 7029, which left eight possibles.

I then looked at the What 'Happened to Steam' web site for Castle info:

http://www.whathappenedtosteam.com/volumes/the-great-western/gwr-volume-two/

Looking at the records for the eight, I eliminated them one by one by checking the 'varified sightings' on various sheds for the date in question. Also, being at Pontypool Road, it was most probable the loco had come from north of there.

Finally I was left with one loco 7003 which was withdrawn from Gloucester Horton Road on the 10-8-1964. Ther is an 'unverified' note from the original WHTS data on the web page that it was stored there from 8-64 to 10-64. However, a lot of the original WHTS data was by the infamous 'Zulu' who reported false information.

I am therefore 99.99% convinced the loco is 7003 Elmley Castle.

[BR(W)]

Well done for identifying Court Sart, Mike; I can stop worrying about it now!  I'd discounted Neath as my mental image of it demands a big mountain in the background, but looking at the area on OS map shows that from some angles this need not be so!  In fact the skyline to the right of the pannier's bunker is probably the big mountain.  

 

I suspect both locos at Pontypool Road were scrappers, with the coupling rods removed and chucked in the bunkers, a common enough site everywhere in 1964.

 

Please forgive me, but the rods in question are connecting rods - or 'con-rods', not coupling rods. I know you knew that.

 

Cheers,

 

BR(W).