A Pug of Another Kind

[pete_mcfarlane]

On the subject of small odd looking pugs, how about the ones at Llanelli Steelworks, which lasted until the 1960s.

 

http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/archive/image.htm?img=FAI3487&jpg=FAI/FAI3487.jpg&srch=&page=2

https://www.flickr.com/photos/31514768@N05/4895308112/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/31514768@N05/4897412674/

 

(Although I suspect I lose points for them being Barclays, which is hardly an obscure builder.....)

[The Johnster]

No.  With geared drive of this sort there can be no vertical play in the driven axle, as it would either shatter the coupling rod or push the piston through the cylinder front in certain situations.  In a normal locomotive, the vertical play in the axle allowed by springing is absorbed at the crosshead pivot, but cannot be so absorbed where the play is in the same alignment as the piston.  Next time you have a look at 844, you will be able to see what I mean; imagine movement of the coupling rod in the same direction as the piston.  There is no capability in the crosshead pivot to take it up, it just gets gets transferred directly along the alignment.  In Pugsy, there is a vertically mounted cylinder with the piston driving directly downwards via the gears to the (rear) driven axle.  I suspect she wore her big ends rather badly rather quickly unless she ran perfectly smoothly on perfectly smooth track, and she doesn't look the type to me...

 

In geared locomotives such as Sentinels, chain drive allows a degree of play at the expense of chain wear, like on a motorbike, and in the likes of Shays, Climaxes and so on the drive shafts pivot like cardan shafts and allow the required play, but one cannot see how Pugsy achieved this and she probably didn't...

[844fan]

No.  With geared drive of this sort there can be no vertical play in the driven axle, as it would either shatter the coupling rod or push the piston through the cylinder front in certain situations.  In a normal locomotive, the vertical play in the axle allowed by springing is absorbed at the crosshead pivot, but cannot be so absorbed where the play is in the same alignment as the piston.  Next time you have a look at 844, you will be able to see what I mean; imagine movement of the coupling rod in the same direction as the piston.  There is no capability in the crosshead pivot to take it up, it just gets gets transferred directly along the alignment.  In Pugsy, there is a vertically mounted cylinder with the piston driving directly downwards via the gears to the (rear) driven axle.  I suspect she wore her big ends rather badly rather quickly unless she ran perfectly smoothly on perfectly smooth track, and she doesn't look the type to me...

 

In geared locomotives such as Sentinels, chain drive allows a degree of play at the expense of chain wear, like on a motorbike, and in the likes of Shays, Climaxes and so on the drive shafts pivot like cardan shafts and allow the required play, but one cannot see how Pugsy achieved this and she probably didn't...

You know I should of realized that. Why is it that when someone points out the obvious answer to your question you immediately realize that same answer was in your face the whole ime and want to face palm?! So that would also mean that the old Beamish coffee pot would have no springs either as that most certainly is not geared. 

 

Hmm given that she would work slowly I bet a skilled driver could keep her rough riding under control. Just got to treat her with respect and some skill but yeah it explains why there are few Vertical cylinder setups that are geared like this and would use drive shafts and chains to allow for springs. Much more the pitty since these little engines are quite adorable and look quite hardy.

[Killian keane]

No. With geared drive of this sort there can be no vertical play in the driven axle, as it would either shatter the coupling rod or push the piston through the cylinder front in certain situations. In a normal locomotive, the vertical play in the axle allowed by springing is absorbed at the crosshead pivot, but cannot be so absorbed where the play is in the same alignment as the piston. Next time you have a look at 844, you will be able to see what I mean; imagine movement of the coupling rod in the same direction as the piston. There is no capability in the crosshead pivot to take it up, it just gets gets transferred directly along the alignment. In Pugsy, there is a vertically mounted cylinder with the piston driving directly downwards via the gears to the (rear) driven axle. I suspect she wore her big ends rather badly rather quickly unless she ran perfectly smoothly on perfectly smooth track, and she doesn't look the type to me...

 

In geared locomotives such as Sentinels, chain drive allows a degree of play at the expense of chain wear, like on a motorbike, and in the likes of Shays, Climaxes and so on the drive shafts pivot like cardan shafts and allow the required play, but one cannot see how Pugsy achieved this and she probably didn't...

But I'm pretty sure Pugsy didn't have vertical cylinders, looking at the drawing in chronicles, it seems I was completely wrong and she did in fact have springs, my apologies gentlemen, she wasn't a bad little loco by any means, she could pull 25 wagons belonging to the LNWR, very respectable for a loco weighing less than 8 tons Edited September 3, 2017 by Killian keane

[844fan]

But I'm pretty sure Pugsy didn't have vertical cylinders, looking at the drawing in chronicles, it seems I was completely wrong and she did in fact have springs, my apologies gentlemen, she wasn't a bad little loco by any means, she could pull 25 wagons belonging to the LNWR, very respectable for a loco weighing less than 8 tons

Not to mention I think even the Loco Sam linked has springs if I'm looking at it right you can see leaves behind the front driver. 25 wagons of a standard size is quite strong for a small engine indeed. You mention a drawing where is that from?

[Killian keane]

Not to mention I think even the Loco Sam linked has springs if I'm looking at it right you can see leaves behind the front driver. 25 wagons of a standard size is quite strong for a small engine indeed. You mention a drawing where is that from?

Its in chronicles of boultons siding which had three chapters on strange geared engines, this book has all the same drawings and is easier to source at a better price except you don't get as much of the back story of the locos https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0853613974?tag=vig-21

[sir douglas]

 a friend of mine recently showed me another similar book full of loco drawings, all sorts of early mainline and industrial

[844fan]

Its in chronicles of boultons siding which had three chapters on strange geared engines, this book has all the same drawings and is easier to source at a better price except you don't get as much of the back story of the locos https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0853613974?tag=vig-21y

Hmm I just may have to see if I can get this shipped from Amazon UK to the US. I want this book now very much so more than I did when I first heard of it. Sadly not many listings of it on Abebooks or I'd use that.

 a friend of mine recently showed me another similar book full of loco drawings, all sorts of early mainline and industrial

Sam my friend please find out the title unless it is the Boulton Sidings as well. I would love to see these drawings. Pitty that I can't talk with your friend as easily as I can you sounds like a cool person.

[Fat Controller]

On the subject of small odd looking pugs, how about the ones at Llanelli Steelworks, which lasted until the 1960s.

 

http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/archive/image.htm?img=FAI3487&jpg=FAI/FAI3487.jpg&srch=&page=2

https://www.flickr.com/photos/31514768@N05/4895308112/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/31514768@N05/4897412674/

 

(Although I suspect I lose points for them being Barclays, which is hardly an obscure builder.....)

These locos were rarely seen outside the Melting Shop, where they moved loads of scrap and pig iron to charge the furnaces. Unless something untoward happened, the only time they'd be seen elsewhere would be during 'Stop Fortnight', when they'd be found in the former 'Llanelly Foundry' building, undergoing overhaul.

[844fan]

Its in chronicles of boultons siding which had three chapters on strange geared engines, this book has all the same drawings and is easier to source at a better price except you don't get as much of the back story of the locos https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0853613974?tag=vig-21

I bit the bullet and purchased the book. The seller has good feedback and they ship internationally so I thought why not. Thanks very much.

 

These locos were rarely seen outside the Melting Shop, where they moved loads of scrap and pig iron to charge the furnaces. Unless something untoward happened, the only time they'd be seen elsewhere would be during 'Stop Fortnight', when they'd be found in the former 'Llanelly Foundry' building, undergoing overhaul.

Hidden gems indeed. Hot tiresome work but built to deliver it really must be said that most industrial designs were much much tougher than many mass produced locos. I can't imagine a Jinty lasting nearly as long in those conditions and we all know Jintys are tough little tank engines.

[Killian keane]

[Ruston]

You'll like this one, it turned up about a year ago on facebook. All thats known is that its somewhere in middlesborough in the 1870's

 

a coupling rod and crank can be seen behind the rear wheel so it would suggest a vertical cylinder and geared drive to the rear axle

loco middlesborough 1870's.jpg

It looks like something from Gilkes, Wilson & Co. They made several vertical-cylinder locos of a similar appearance to the one in the photo and their works, The Tees Side Engine Works, was in Midddlesborough.