First Group win South West franchise

[nightstar.train]

The statement talks about a "unified" suburban fleet, so the speculation elsewhere is centred around a follow on order for more 707's, to replace the 455 and recently acquired 456's.

60 x 10-car and 30 x 5-car is one suggestion that has been put forward.

Ron

A unified fleet certainly makes sense,reduces costs a lot. It could end up with a situation like Anglia though, where the 707s get sent away even though they're very new as it's cheaper long term to buy some different ones and have the unified fleet.

[guzzler17]

One one point above the fast Waterloo - Weymouth services introduced at electrification did not call at Southampton Airport; they were non-stop between Waterloo and Southampton and thence to and from Bournemouth.

In 1983 the fast Weymouth services were non-stop to/from Southampton in 67 minutes down and 68 minutes up.  During the weekday peaks there were two morning and evening services that called at Winchester and that added 4 minutes to the down and 6 minutes to the up.

 

Those were the fun days on the SWML i.e. REPs and TCs and sometimes 100mph running.

[Gwiwer]

 

Those were the fun days on the SWML i.e. REPs and TCs and sometimes 100mph running.

 

And some ..... very unofficially of course.

 

In 1967 many drivers had just converted from steam and had displayed their exuberance on the main line with the final exploits of the Bulleids.  Some continued with those exploits when they discovered how powerful a 4Rep was.  Especially when coupled to just a single 4TC instead of two.  My all-time third-rail speed record, timed by stopwatch and corroborated by the intermediate cab speedometer which was visible from the passenger gangway, arose on such a trip.  Let's just say it was fast.  Very fast indeed.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Anyone who undertakes a daily commute of 3 hours each way on top of an 8 hour (or longer) working day, needs to get a life. That certainly doesn't constitute one. 

 

John

SWMBO used to commute from Andover to London. One of her regular fellow-travellers came from Crediton each day.

 

He must have liked being on the railway because he later resigned from his London job and started a second career as a ticket-office clerk.

[lmsforever]

I sympathise with all travellers on the new franchise First are possibly the least likely to improve matters they are under performing on the bus side of operations so not much hope for rail.Reading the post about MTR makes for worrying reading just what are the DFT upto letting these people anywhere near our network.Lets hope that First are not allowed anymore contracts on rail there must be better companies out there?

[Joseph_Pestell]

I have found this morning's TV reports quite confused and I have been unable to understand the exact relationship between First and MTR - and which will  really be running the franchise.

 

But surely the whole point, we were told at the time, of privatisation was to offer competition. With First in charge of Great Western, this award has removed competition.

[Gwiwer]

 

 

With First in charge of Great Western, this award has removed competition.

Only to a rather modest extent on a few journeys.  London - Exeter is still firmly GWR territory based on journey time and it's often the cheaper as well.  Waterloo - Bristol isn't really intended as a serious end-to-end option and to me looks like an ORCATS raid as the SWT services are very close in time to GWR ones north of Salisbury.  You might find it hard to argue for diminution of competition over London - Reading when both Waterloo and Paddington have had established services for many years and again the former is not a serious end-to-end contender for most traffic.

 

 

 

which will  really be running the franchise.

I suspect, without having any knowledge nor corroboration, that the tail will wag the dog much as it does on the ECML.  I'd be willing to bet MTR have fronted the money and the deal with First is that the British group takes the larger share of the open risk acting as front man while MTR collect their secured share and ship it offshore pronto.

[Dunsignalling]

SWMBO used to commute from Andover to London. One of her regular fellow-travellers came from Crediton each day.

 

He must have liked being on the railway because he later resigned from his London job and started a second career as a ticket-office clerk.

Yes. I knew Bob when he worked on the down side whilst I was snugly signalling on the up.

 

He was IIRC, the first holder of a Honiton-Waterloo season ticket but I don't think the situation was entirely of his own making.

 

John

Edited March 27, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[D854_Tiger]

Anyone who undertakes a daily commute of 3 hours each way on top of an 8 hour (or longer) working day, needs to get a life. That certainly doesn't constitute one. 

 

John

 

 

Unless they mostly homework and commute only once or twice a week.

 

Some operators are already in tune with that kind of thing, looking at ways for part weekly or part monthly discounted smart ticketing.

 

It's likely to be a growing trend.

[Geoff Endacott]

Isn't it obvious how First will improve the service. They will rename the franchise Southern Railway and paint the trains malachite green.

 

Geoff Endacott

[steve W]

Looking at some of the bid's graphics they promise 'Metro style service'   Now, I'm not sure what that is intended to translate as, but to me that's mostly un-staffed stations, one man operation, single class (not necessarily bad), ticket machines with limited purchase options and a canvas for the graffiti artist.  But perhaps I have frequented the wrong kind of Metro..

Steve W.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Isn't it obvious how First will improve the service. They will rename the franchise Southern Railway and paint the trains malachite green.

 

Geoff Endacott

I would rather have the plum and split milk of London & South Western. And maybe some push-pull trains on the mainline so we can have some light green locos.

[Jon Fitness]

I wonder how the poor old Island Line will do under this lot? Not many (if any) options for "new" stock exist and the remaining 1938 stock looks rather knackered to me.

JF

[wombatofludham]

Living as I do in deepest Rheilfyrdd Almaeneg land I'm probably a bit out of touch but I was under the impression that Stagecoach had a relatively good reputation with SWT and am very surprised that First got this, having a somewhat patchy reputation in rail activities.  It strikes me as being an odd decision.

​I wonder if there might be some kind of legal challenge as happened over the West Coast fiasco?

Edited March 27, 2017 by wombatofludham

[phil_sutters]

And maybe some push-pull trains on the mainline so we can have some light green locos.

Are there any 4-TCs around still??

[phil_sutters]

Isn't it obvious how First will improve the service. They will rename the franchise Southern Railway and paint the trains malachite green.

 

Geoff Endacott

I think the current 'Southern Railway' dispute has rather tarnished that brand.

[cheesysmith]

As for the island line, there is comment about new signalling, a passing loop and increased service levels to match the ferries. I wunderkind how much some tram trains and minimal signals with line of sight driving would cost? And if you did introduce tram trains it would allow the potential for serving more of the island with cheap extensions.

[The Stationmaster]

I have found this morning's TV reports quite confused and I have been unable to understand the exact relationship between First and MTR - and which will  really be running the franchise.

 

But surely the whole point, we were told at the time, of privatisation was to offer competition. With First in charge of Great Western, this award has removed competition.

 

Like Rick (Gwiwer)  I wonder where there really is any serious competition.  Exeter is a non-starter as is the east devon area where the GWR trains are too far away.  There is no competition between the two operators for London or westwards traffic at Yeovil but there is a serious degree of competition - if you are a potential passenger - between Gillingham/Templcombe and Castle Cary/Westbury with fringes extending a bit further west along the LSW route (where it has the advantage).   The next area is really Twyford vs Wokingham where the former offers distinct journey time advantages which overcome the latter's advantage for some connections onwards from the London terminus and the only limit (at present) is car parking space at Twyford.

 

Even with 12% acceleration Reading via the LSW route is no competition at all with the GW line in terms of journey time or quality of train - in fact when I was commuting from Reading to Waterloo it was far quicker via Paddington even when the Bakerloo Line was closed for a period for major engineering work - and I didn't have to go off the station at Waterloo in order to get to the office door!

[Joseph_Pestell]

Only to a rather modest extent on a few journeys.  London - Exeter is still firmly GWR territory based on journey time and it's often the cheaper as well.  Waterloo - Bristol isn't really intended as a serious end-to-end option and to me looks like an ORCATS raid as the SWT services are very close in time to GWR ones north of Salisbury.  You might find it hard to argue for diminution of competition over London - Reading when both Waterloo and Paddington have had established services for many years and again the former is not a serious end-to-end contender for most traffic.

 

I suspect, without having any knowledge nor corroboration, that the tail will wag the dog much as it does on the ECML.  I'd be willing to bet MTR have fronted the money and the deal with First is that the British group takes the larger share of the open risk acting as front man while MTR collect their secured share and ship it offshore pronto.

 

A limited extent, yes. But when your main justification for privatisation is "competition", it is perverse to remove what little there is.

 

Round here (e.g. Wincanton), there is some potential for people to make the choice between FGW (Bruton) and SWT (Templecombe). SWT usually wins on better service frequency.

 

There is also the small matter of Paddington being in the middle of nowhere. So end-to-end journey times can be better and more reliable via Waterloo.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

Are there any 4-TCs around still??

Swanage have one and painted it teak! (Yuck).

[Joseph_Pestell]

I wonder how the poor old Island Line will do under this lot? Not many (if any) options for "new" stock exist and the remaining 1938 stock looks rather knackered to me.

JF

I have often wondered if they could not get something suitable from the Paris Metro.

[Fenman]

... One one point above the fast Waterloo - Weymouth services introduced at electrification did not call at Southampton Airport; they were non-stop between Waterloo and Southampton and thence to and from Bournemouth.  For many years the airport station (which only became a Parkway more recently) was served by the semi-fast Waterloo - Bournemouth trains (Waterloo, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Southampton Airport, Southampton, Brockenhurst, Christchurch and Bournemouth).  ...

 

Yes, rather than go into the minutiae of the history of the line since electrification, that's why I referred to "Southampton Airport Parkway". You're referring to the mid-60s-to-mid-80s era of "Southampton (Eastleigh) Airport".

 

The real step-change came in the Wessex Electric era, with the 4tph shuttle service. BR even advertised in those pre-Chunnel days that it was quicker to get from central London to Paris via Southampton Airport than Heathrow - the service to the airport station was so fast (Waterloo to Parkway was deliberately timed at just 59 minutes non-stop). And if you tripped-up on the station platform you'd already find your head had fallen into the airport terminal, so close were the two. In a nice piece of cooperation, BAA (as was) built a swishy new terminal for Southampton. It was always such a nice experience.

 

Paul

Edited March 27, 2017 by Fenman

[phil-b259]

The statement talks about a "unified" suburban fleet, so the speculation elsewhere is centred around a follow on order for more 707's, to replace the 455 and recently acquired 456's.

60 x 10-car and 30 x 5-car is one suggestion that has been put forward.

 

 

 

Ron

 

That would also allow the SWT suburban services go DOO (the 707s already having the necessary cameras / monitors on board).

 

Naturally the RMT won't like it - and as can be seen with MerseyRail and Northern, they aren't afraid to start industrial disputes over it - and their statements regarding SWT sound much the same as for those operations 

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/to-all-members-at-south-wes27317/

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-on-south-west-trains-franchise-announcement/

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-warns-of-co-ordinated-government-plans-to-axe-rail-staff/

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/dft-admits-to-rigging-rail-franchise-market-for-privateers/

 

Equally there has long been dissatisfaction in Whitehall over the retention of Guards on SWT when every other London suburban franchise has got rid of them and given the DfTs intransigence over the issue at Southern, they might be looking forward to doing something about it.

Edited March 27, 2017 by phil-b259

[SouthernMafia]

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail/FGP/13171647.html

 

There is a suggestion from this article and another source that the 18 "new" trains for the Pompey line are infact refurbished (again) 442s!

[Joseph_Pestell]

That would also allow the SWT suburban services go DOO (the 707s already having the necessary cameras / monitors on board).

 

Naturally the RMT won't like it - and as can be seen with MerseyRail and Northern, they aren't afraid to start industrial disputes over it - and their statements regarding SWT sound much the same as for those operations  http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/to-all-members-at-south-wes27317/ http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-on-south-west-trains-franchise-announcement/

 

Equally there has long been dissatisfaction in Whitehall over the retention of Guards on SWT when every other London suburban franchise has got rid of them and given the DfTs intransigence over the issue at Southern, they might be looking forward to doing something about it.

 

Surely the other point of privatisation was Govt leaving well alone and letting the supposedly superior private sector do things the way it wants. If that includes having guards, why not?