Smart Meter = smart move?

[admiles]

15 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Important ---- read this

 

https://www.dcusa.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/DCP-371_Last-resort-arrangements-for-Distributors-to-manage-specific-consumer-connected-devices.pdf

 

Also

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/bills/article-8706033/Smart-meters-used-switch-electricity-without-warning-compensation.html

 

Electric car - in winter - can't charge  ???????????????????

 

Brit15

 

Yet another reason (if any were needed) not to have an electric car or a smart meter!

[APOLLO]

If (big if) I was to buy an electric car it would be a hybrid. Best of both worlds - until "they" phase those out also.

 

No smart meters for me also - I will resist as long as possible.

 

Brit15

[steve W]

The proposals are not at all surprising - it's how they go about it that causes some concern.  It is stated in the above link article that the cut off idea would only apply to thise customers that had agreed to it. Being cynical I can see this as being  "your electricity cost is x pence -minus a tiny morsel of temptation  per unit,  but if you want to retain full supply it will be x pence + significant supply retention fee"

 

The Spanish system has traditionally worked on a similar principle, the customer decides which of several bands of maximum simultaneous kW  usage they want to have available and then pay a fixed monthly fee plus the metered kWh usage.   If the max usage is exceeded at any time the smart meter shuts the supply down.  Switch off  e.g the aircon or washing machine and It will reset. On old traditional meters this was done with a current monitoring circuit breaker that could easily be exchanged for a standard one of higher rating thus defeating the system (illegal, but in the village I'm familiar with, common).  This whole system was born out of neccessity due to the historicaly very poor infrastruture, the main fuse in my friends house was only 20A with supply cables to match. Once the smart meter was installed he couldn't  keep the swimming pool pump on!  His tarrif  (and wires) were changed and the meter set to a new limit.

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by steve W
spellun

[Michael Hodgson]

On 18/09/2020 at 17:52, steve W said:

The Spanish system has traditionally worked on a similar principle, the customer decides which of several bands of maximum simultaneous kW  usage they want to have available and then pay a fixed monthly fee plus the metered kWh usage.   If the max usage is exceeded at any time the smart meter shuts the supply down.  Switch off  e.g the aircon or washing machine and It will reset. On old traditional meters this was done with a current monitoring circuit breaker that could easily be exchanged for a standard one of higher rating thus defeating the system (illegal, but in the village I'm familiar with, common).  This whole system was born out of neccessity due to the historicaly very poor infrastruture, the main fuse in my friends house was only 20A with supply cables to match. Once the smart meter was installed he couldn't  keep the swimming pool pump on!  His tarrif  (and wires) were changed and the meter set to a new limit.

 

 

Hmm.  Our Electricity Board sealed fuses are typically 100A, maybe 80A in smaller properties, presumably with supply cables to match.  I don't know what if anything they change for EV chargers.  I've got a much smaller fuse on the circuit that feeds the garage light and its 13A Socket.  If I wanted to make an unauthorised alteration to my distribution board, I would have to either run the risk of doing any wiring on live circuits or pull the sealed fuse.  If I were to do the latter it was supposedly something that should have been picked up by the meter reader as part of his visit.  With customer reading of meters they only come round once a year or so now to make sure I'm not telling porkies.  I suppose even that visit doesn't happen any more with the new technology.  Anyway, I suppose the street light would be the best place to hot wire an EV charger - nice and handy, close to where I park ... if they would only change to diesel powered street lights, we wouldn't need to buy EVs!

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 18/09/2020 at 18:52, steve W said:

The proposals are not at all surprising - it's how they go about it that causes some concern.  It is stated in the above link article that the cut off idea would only apply to thise customers that had agreed to it. Being cynical I can see this as being  "your electricity cost is x pence -minus a tiny morsel of temptation  per unit,  but if you want to retain full supply it will be x pence + significant supply retention fee"

 

The Spanish system has traditionally worked on a similar principle, the customer decides which of several bands of maximum simultaneous kW  usage they want to have available and then pay a fixed monthly fee plus the metered kWh usage.   If the max usage is exceeded at any time the smart meter shuts the supply down.  Switch off  e.g the aircon or washing machine and It will reset. On old traditional meters this was done with a current monitoring circuit breaker that could easily be exchanged for a standard one of higher rating thus defeating the system (illegal, but in the village I'm familiar with, common).  This whole system was born out of neccessity due to the historicaly very poor infrastruture, the main fuse in my friends house was only 20A with supply cables to match. Once the smart meter was installed he couldn't  keep the swimming pool pump on!  His tarrif  (and wires) were changed and the meter set to a new limit.

 

 

Theoretically, an impossible word here in Spain, a survey of the appliances should be made in the property and an application made to Iberdrola for a "potencia" to match the maximum output possibilities. When I had my house rewired I went up 2 bands, despite having no additional appliances installed, this being a hangover from the previous English owners.

Of course, this being Spain, everybody tries to fiddle the system, and because my valley is on a twig of a branch, then when all the corrupt users switch everything on the whole system to my village overloads, and, pow, no electricity. This being unregulated Spain though, where nobody gives a sh!t, Iberdrola do nothing about it and disruptive life carries on.

 

Mike.

[JJGraphics]

20 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

With customer reading of meters they only come round once a year or so now to make sure I'm not telling porkies.  I suppose even that visit doesn't happen any more with the new technology. 

 

We have not seen a meter reader for a very long time and we have changed suppliers several times. They just accept your word for the readings.

 

John

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, JJGraphics said:

 

We have not seen a meter reader for a very long time and we have changed suppliers several times. They just accept your word for the readings.

 

John

 

Mine were read for the first time in a couple of years not long ago, though I too have changed suppliers a few times, so it does still happen.  But certainly infrequently.

[Wheatley]

Having stayed in places where half a million locals' power goes off every time the ex-pats get home and turn the air con on, I don't have a problem with turning peoples' cars off for a couple of hours in the evening. 

 

As for meter readers, after SSE/OVO suspended meter reading for 'my safety' in March they then rang me every day for 5 days to get a meter reading, which I gave them. Every day. Then they estimated the bill anyway at a lower reading than the five I'd given them. They can estimate it next time too, b***s to them.

[Hibelroad]

I worked for a while in grid control so I am familiar with the idea of marginal costing, i.e the minute by minute cost of the most expensive generation set on the system. I can understand that power providers would like to adjust the supply cost at regular intervals throughout the day. I am not an electrician but I suspect that auto disconnection of circuits within the home would be tricky. It could be done but would require some re wiring of the consumer unit within the house. Much easier to have a variable tariff with maybe an alarm when the cost exceeds a value so the householder can choose to do some self disconnection. This will of course throw the onus on the household and make life more difficult. I have long suspected that the impact of increasing numbers of car chargers has not been taken seriously so there could be troubled times ahead ( as if we don’t have enough to contend with). 

[Nick C]

17 hours ago, Hibelroad said:

I have long suspected that the impact of increasing numbers of car chargers has not been taken seriously so there could be troubled times ahead ( as if we don’t have enough to contend with). 

Very much agreed - one very obvious issue is that the 'last mile' infrastructure can't cope with the load - one or two car chargers per street-level substation will be fine, but once we start getting much more than that, they will be overloaded - they're not designed to cope with all the houses connected to them drawing full current at once.

[Enterprisingwestern]

29 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Very much agreed - one very obvious issue is that the 'last mile' infrastructure can't cope with the load - one or two car chargers per street-level substation will be fine, but once we start getting much more than that, they will be overloaded - they're not designed to cope with all the houses connected to them drawing full current at once.

 

Which is where we came in, a smart meter can solve that problem.

 

Mike.

[mozzer models]

3 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Which is where we came in, a smart meter can solve that problem.

 

Mike.

but when the whole street need 10 hour charge on the cars 10 hour be for setting off for work which ones do not get there car charged so the lights stay on 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, mozzer models said:

but when the whole street need 10 hour charge on the cars 10 hour be for setting off for work which ones do not get there car charged so the lights stay on 

 

If the whole street needs to drive 280 miles to work they're having some serious lifestyle problems.

[mozzer models]

18 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

If the whole street needs to drive 280 miles to work they're having some serious lifestyle problems.

think sunday night doing it ready for the trips to work in the week

[Nick C]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Which is where we came in, a smart meter can solve that problem.

 

Mike.

How? It can't talk to the neighbouring ones, as far as I know, so how will it know that Mr Smith at No42 needs his car fully charged at 9am as he's driving to the other end of the country to visit a customer, wheras Mr Jones at No43 won't need a full charge as he's only got a 20 mile round trip to do?

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

as far as I know

 

Mike.

[idd15]

3 hours ago, mozzer models said:

but when the whole street need 10 hour charge on the cars 10 hour be for setting off for work which ones do not get there car charged so the lights stay on 

This is a very unlikely scenario.

 

From a number of sources the average commute in the UK is around 24 miles per day which for the average EV would mean it would consume about 6 KWhr. In the UK most domestic EV chargers charge at 6 KW (around 70% of the load of the humble domestic electric shower) so an hours charging would be required each evening/night.

 

The above linked document is about a possible means of protecting infrastructure during the main peak demand between 5-7pm. But we EV drivers do not charge then, basically we plug the car in and set the cars timer to charge during off peak in the early hours when can save maybe 60% on the cost of peak rate electricity. The total load on the local infrastructure is way below what the grid experiences between 5 and 7pm.

 

When we eventually do have many more electric cars on the street we will also have Vehicle 2 Grid chargers where the local grid is supported by both vehicle batteries and those properties who have installed battery storage. So retired Mr X decides he can make a bit of cash by selling a bit of electric from his car (charged from his solar panels during the day) to help out charge Mr Y next door who has a long business trip the next day.

 

Looking down our street right now there are an awful lot of cars parked on their  drives doing nothing. Imagine though if they were all plugged in they could be supporting the local grid and earning their owners some cash. This may sound unrealistic but it is exactly the same as what my solar panels are doing right now. The surplus power from the panels is supporting other properties in the street and removing load off the local grid.

 

Whilst this may all sound fanciful there are already extensive trials going on with V2G systems, and many properties are installing batteries particularly where they have solar PV. Contrary to the post above that said such V2G systems will degrade a vehicles batteries, trials carried out by Cranfield University would suggest the opposite is true. Indeed the life of the vehicle batteries was enhanced, which admittedly seems counter intuitive.

 

Unfortunately, though not surprisingly, big oils FUD campaign against electric vehicles and their charging has been very successful  and there are an incredible number of myths and nightmares about them, and about vehicle charging in particular. In reality in four years of driving an EV if you can charge at home then it is no different to plugging in your phone at night. We use the Smart meter to get off peak rates and have successfully moved 60% of our electricity consumption to this rate using nothing more than the timers built into the car and various domestic appliances.

 

However I flatly refuse to get up in the wee small hours to take a shower. 

 

Stay safe

idd

 

 

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, idd15 said:

The above linked document is about a possible means of protecting infrastructure during the main peak demand between 5-7pm. But we EV drivers do not charge then, basically we plug the car in and set the cars timer to charge during off peak in the early hours when can save maybe 60% on the cost of peak rate electricity. The total load on the local infrastructure is way below what the grid experiences between 5 and 7pm.

 

There's a key issue there though - you are an early adopter, largely, I suspect, because you think about your impact and how you can minimise it. The problem will come when lots more people have EVs, many of whom are not so thoughtful, and will want their car fully charged right now, while also cooking their dinner, running the washing machine, and watching telly, rather than thinking ahead and planning for their future needs.

 

Sadly, a system designed for sensible considerate people often breaks down when presented with the general public, far too many of whom seem to be neither...

[Nick C]

3 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Mike.

That's not a very helpful comment - would you like to provide sources? My understanding is that SMETS2 meters just talk to the central supplier database, not to each other on a local basis.

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

That's not a very helpful comment - would you like to provide sources? My understanding is that SMETS2 meters just talk to the central supplier database, not to each other on a local basis.

 

A smart meter is a device which has electronic connectivity options, they may not all be enabled yet.

 

Mike.

[great central]

10 hours ago, Nick C said:

Very much agreed - one very obvious issue is that the 'last mile' infrastructure can't cope with the load - one or two car chargers per street-level substation will be fine, but once we start getting much more than that, they will be overloaded - they're not designed to cope with all the houses connected to them drawing full current at once.

 

Wasn't the lack of infrastructure capacity mentioned in some quarters as the real reason for cancellation of various railway electrification projects?

[idd15]

3 hours ago, Nick C said:

 

Sadly, a system designed for sensible considerate people often breaks down when presented with the general public, far too many of whom seem to be neither...

This is a very valid point. A little harsh perhaps....but hey! 

 

It is very early days for EV's, smart meters and smart chargers, but given the degree of inter connectivity already in these devices perhaps the next part of the jigsaw will be something to emulate the "sensible considerate consumer" ???

 

Another aspect to consider is the fact that electricity consumption is significantly decreasing year on year in the UK. Many devices are becoming significantly more efficient and it is not unreasonable to expect EV's to follow this trend. So the overall strain on the distribution system may not be as great as we perhaps fear???

 

Given it is in absolutely everyone's interests to keep the lights on and the cars charged it will probably all work out in the end!

 

Stay safe

idd

  

[SHMD]

..just thought I'd drop this here...

 

 

 

Kev.

 

[Nick C]

23 hours ago, SHMD said:

..just thought I'd drop this here...

 

 

 

Kev.

 

If you want a shock, watch his video from last week on the fake untrippabble circuit breaker...

 

I find the idea of them hiding a microphone inside a smart meter to spy on you highly amusing- why on earth would they want to do that when the meter is hidden away in a cupboard, and they could just use the mic in your smartphone anyway...

[SHMD]

16 minutes ago, Nick C said:

If you want a shock, watch his video from last week on the fake untrippabble circuit breaker...

 

I find the idea of them hiding a microphone inside a smart meter to spy on you highly amusing- why on earth would they want to do that when the meter is hidden away in a cupboard, and they could just use the mic in your smartphone anyway...

 

That is either criminally stupid or attempted manslaughter!

 

I say criminally stupid because in China, and I AM assuming these are made in China, because MCBs are frequently used and fitted as light switches there.

A (very bad) manufacturer could think of just making a cheaper switch, (for these instances), but using the same MCB packaging as that is what is accepted practice.

 

Unlikely I know.

Which leads to the second option of trying to make money by fake dangerous products.

In which case, (especially for safety products), should be attempted (if not actual) man slaughter.

....it's only a matter of time!

 

Criminal!

(I was going to say shocking but....    shakes head....)

 

It's like selling a parachute in a back-pack, but the back-pack just has old news papers in it!   

 

 

Kev.