Roco MultiMaus with Lenz system

[chaz]

Advice or help needed!

 

I recently installed sound in some of my 7mm locos. Having dealt with the diesels I made a start on the steam locos.

I have a Lenz DCC system. I found the LH90 handsets (which were previously my favourite controllers) not so good with sound. They only have four function buttons, and switching function numbers above 4 is quite clumsy. The LH100 is a better controller for sound but I prefer a rotay knob, rather than push buttons, to drive locos. So I bought a Roco MultiMaus which appears to offer the best of both worlds. It is claimed to be fully compatible with XpressNet and has a square plug which fits directly into a LA152.

 

The MultiMaus does work with the Lenz system but it also provokes the occasional system crash. The whole lot freezes leaving any locos that are moving uncontrollable, with not even the "STOP" button working. The only way to reset the system appears to be to turn off at the wall and re-boot. In a recent 3 hour operating session the system crashed 4 times. This level of unreliability is unacceptable to me, and if I can't fix it the MultiMaus will be discarded. Pity, I rather like it.

 

Anybody else encountered this problem? Or, more to the point, anybody have a solution?

 

Chaz

[Glorious NSE]

We've had the same problem - although with not quite the same level of unreliability as you. The one thing that seemed to guarantee a crash was using the "walkaround" facility, unplugging and moving panels whilst the train was moving.

 

We also tried it using the din plug fitted lead from a LH90 but that gave the same result.

 

I'm told there has been a software update on the more up-to-date maus's which will correct the fault, but i'm not willing to pay out good money for a new one if it's not going to do the trick.

 

And yep, I prefer it to the Lenz handsets as well...

[chaz]

Thanks for the reply, GNSE.

 

I agree with you about not investing further. I must tell you that the Lenz system was recently upgraded to V3.6. I assume that as the MultiMaus is new it contains the latest firmware.

I am still awaiting a reply from both Lenz and Roco regarding the problem. I will post any suggestions that they make.

 

Chaz

[PaulCheffus]

Hi

 

I was considering buying a Multimaus for my Lenz system but have been put off by several forums mentioning similar problems to yourself. I would be interested in any developments as I would like a knob style handset for my Lenz system (I didn't like several features of the LH90).

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Glorious NSE]

I will post any suggestions that they make.

 

Ta - if you get anything useful from them please do, the handset was nice to hold and quite easy & intuitive to use and I'd certainly buy one (the one I have at the moment is on loan from a friend) if the reliability issues were sorted.

 

Trying to remember exactly what the issues we found were - from memory (and it was last summer at the Exeter show we tested it) they were:

 

• You had to have the controller plugged in on boot-up or it refused to talk to the system.
• Moving the controller from panel to panel whilst the train was moving would "emergency stop" the layout around 50% of the time when you plugged it back in. If you stopped your train (but not other trains) before you moved it didn't do so however! We use the walkaround facility quite a bit on our layout though so that's not ideal although you can work around it.
• We had two (I think) system crashes in the first day, which isn't anywhere near as bad as your experience but still not something i'd be keen on, having to do "reboots" under exhibition conditions doesn't look good.

[chaz]

Well GNSE, your list of problems matches mine exactly. The frequency of system crashes does vary, but somehow it seems to be able to sense that I have a visiting operator (or maybe it's just the use of a second handset or the computer interface that upsets it more often).

 

The only other piece of kit that used to provoke system crashes was the Lenz XPA - DECT phone adapter - which I stopped using for that reason.

 

I don't tolerate unreliable performance on my layout - I like to think that I wouldn't need to change the operating standard for an exhibition. Derailments and stalls are investigated and the causes eliminated - operators who do SPADs are treated to a dose of vigorous banter.

If that MultiMaus won't work properly then it will be out - nice or not.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

Thanks for the reply Colin.

 

No, I haven't modified my LA152s, as I didn't know of this "fix". Is the content on the old forum accessible? How do I get to it?

I would be more than happy to take a soldering iron to the PCBs if it cures the problem.

 

Chaz

[Glorious NSE]

Does the change affect use by LH90/LH100?

[PaulCheffus]

Does the change affect use by LH90/LH100?

 

Hi

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=47399&p=776263&hilit=la152#p776263

 

This mentions the err13 problem whether that will fix the crashes I don't know but would be interested to find out.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Glorious NSE]

Thanks for that - I remember the thread now!

 

I think i'd agree with Andi's view there - **If the mod needs doing** it would be much easier to mod a wire on the multimaus to work with any Lenz socket than mod every socket it might be plugged into.

 

Still lots of variation in experiences and opinions on whether that is neccesary or not though!

[Adrian Wintle]

Hi

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=47399&p=776263&hilit=la152#p776263

 

This mentions the err13 problem whether that will fix the crashes I don't know but would be interested to find out.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

It looks like that mod connects the two remaining wires to the six-pin front panel connector. Since those wires are connected to the Xpressnet connectors on the back of the LA152, a simple test (requiring no modification) would appear to be to plug the Multimaus into one of the rear connectors and operate it that way.

 

Adrian

[chaz]

Thanks, everyone, for the further advice.

 

I will try plugging in to one of the back sockets of the LA152, and will post the result.

 

I tried following the link in your post, Paul, but could not access the picture that shows the modification. The link to a jpeg does not appear to be active. Can anyone tell me what am I doing wrong?

 

Incidentally - I had an email reply from Roco saying that they are aware that the MultiMaus has a problem working with Lenz. I am now waiting for a reply from them to my further email. I pointed out to them that if they are aware of problems then they may have infringed the Trades Descriptions Act by claiming that the product is compatible.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

Woops, silly me. I note the picture is there for all to see, higher up the topic. Sometimes I can be so stupid......

 

I will be up in the roof later today and will come back to the topic with the results of what I find. Back sockets will be tried first and then the mod' (if necessary) - I am not averse to plugging in the cable at the back of the LA152, at least temporarily.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

 

I will be up in the roof later today and will come back to the topic with the results of what I find.

Chaz

Oh dear. It will be a while. I've hit a wiring fault, not directly related to the DCC kit and until I fix it nothing will work. Get back to you in a couple of weeks......

 

Chaz

[Glorious NSE]

Hiya Chaz - any updates to this? I'm still interested in pursuing the multimaus option if we can get it to work reliably.

[Tony_S]

I hope some of this helps. I couldn't generate any problems other than the STOP condition described below.

I've been testing out various combinations of Multimaus, LA152 and LH100/ LZV100. My Multimaus has the latest firmware and the Lenz stuff has the most recent retail firmware. Multimaus is set to Xpressnet 27, Auto off and the LH100 is Xpressnet 13

 

1) If I didn't go walkabout (unplugging ) with the Multimaus it seemed stable and I could transfer control of a loco from Lenz to Roco handset.

 

2) Going walkabout (disconnecting the Multimaus)

 

Some combinations of connections caused problems.

i) I had my LA152 connected by four wires to the Lenz LZV100 LMAB connector. Disconnecting the Multimaus , no problem, Reconnection put system in STOP condition.

 

ii) Connecting LA152 from rear or front RJ12 to Din Expressnet socket on LZV100. Same problem as above.

 

iii) One connection worked perfectly.

This was , connect Din socket of LZV 100 to DIN socket on LA152 faceplate. For this I used a MIDI cable (all 5 pins connected). I plugged the LH100 into the remaining DIN faceplate socket. I could go walkabout (disconnecting either handset) and had no problems on reset. It didn't matter if I plugged the Multimaus into the front or back RJ12 socket.

 

Further Investigations

 

I then added another LA152 using a RJ12 cable (all 6 pins used) to connect it. I could safely disconnect and reconnect my Multimaus and LH100.

 

This is where it gets interesting.

 

I happen to have a Lenz RJ12 to DIN plug curly cable (this only uses 4 connectors). I used this to connect the Multimaus to either LA152 and it could be disconnected and reconnected without triggering a stop condition. The loco carried on happily making noises and running round the track. So I thought what will happen if I disconnect the LA152s from the command station and connect the Multimaus directly to it with the RJ12 to DIN lead. Well it works perfectly until you disconnect and reconnect it as it generates a STOP.

 

Tony

[Glorious NSE]

Aaargh. Let me see if I can get my head round this...

 

i) I had my LA152 connected by four wires to the Lenz LZV100 LMAB connector. Disconnecting the Multimaus , no problem, Reconnection put system in STOP condition.

 

ii) Connecting LA152 from rear or front RJ12 to Din Expressnet socket on LZV100. Same problem as above

 

iii) One connection worked perfectly.

This was , connect Din socket of LZV 100 to DIN socket on LA152 faceplate. For this I used a MIDI cable (all 5 pins connected). I plugged the LH100 into the remaining DIN faceplate socket. I could go walkabout (disconnecting either handset) and had no problems on reset. It didn't matter if I plugged the Multimaus into the front or back RJ12 socket.

 

But according to the wiring info with the LA152s instructions the 5 pin dins should only be transmitting the 4 LMAB wires with the middle pin being dead - so in theory (i) and (iii) should be doing the same thing!

 

There may be a conflict between the MM and the Lenz system: as the MM sees a DCC signal on the outer terminals, it assumes DCC-master control. But as a slave unit to the Lenz system, it shouldn't....

 

Well that's a good theory, but if the master unit is connected to the LA152s by the LMAB wires then by definition only the 4 connections are live, the CD wires on the outer ends of the RJ12 cables should be dead, if they aren't then where is the connection coming from?

[Tony_S]

I can only deduce that as it works when the fifth pin (the top middle one) from the xpress socket on the LVZ100 is connected to the LA152 board this fools the Multimaus. I suspect that if one of the other outer cables 1 and 6 of the RJ12 cable were connected to the appropriate Din pin it would work but I don't know which one it is. When my hands feel steady I'll connect a test meter! I'll try it on a big layout tomorrow (with the Midi lead, LA152 connection not a homemade lead!)

 

Tony

[Glorious NSE]

Thanks Tony, interested in any findings!

[PaulCheffus]

Thanks Tony, interested in any findings!

 

Hi

 

I too would be interested in your findings as I would like to use a Multimaus with my Lenz system.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Tony_S]

Assuming the club layout is running tomorrow (and not just wood-worked) I'll take all the cables etc and connectors. The arrangement at home works reliably but a big modular layout will be more of a test. I'll warn people we may get a STOP.

Just in case it wasn't noticed in my earlier post one of the things I did was turn off the auto setting on the Multimaus Xpressnet menu as I thought it wouldn't be a good thing. It may not matter at home but all the Lenz stuff we take to the club has an allocated number so having something hunt for a number seemed unwise. The default of 27 for the maus doesn't seem to be an allocated Xpressnet number in the club list but I can sort that out if necessary.

 

Tony

[Tony_S]

Update!

 

Investigation of the LA152 board seems to show the fifth Din pin isn't connected to anything on the board but the shield/casing of the DIN socket is.

 

I took the Multimaus and had a chat with Geoff at the club who understands these things. We had a good read of the Lenz manuals and confirmed that the club layouts Xpressnet Din sockets are wired up with just 4 wires as specified. I plugged the Multimaus in and it seemed quite happy in an environment where there were a number of other Lenz LH100s operating. Having warned everyone that I'd possibly generate a STOP I unplugged the Multimaus and re-connected it. Surprisingly it didn't cause a problem even though there were four wires only.

So how did the club Lenz system differ to mine? The club also uses a LV102 booster for a power district but that wasn't the cause. Apparently the club system has had a setting altered. This has yet to be confirmed but I think it is the E line configuration. Now that I've read this I realise I was only testing the Multimaus on one half the layout and won't be able to check again until next month. In the meantime I'll try altering that setting on my command station and see if it cures the STOP generation by a walkabout Multimaus.

 

Hope some of this helps!

 

Tony

[Glorious NSE]

All interesting stuff - thanks for your work on this Tony!

[chaz]

Sorry about the delay guys, but I am just back from a holiday in Suffolk.

 

Here's what I found.

 

1 Plugging the MM into one of the rear sockets of the LA152 made no difference. During an operating session the system crashed a couple of times.

 

2 inserting a 20R resistor into the "L" line, to limit the current drawn by the MM (this was suggested as a possible cure on another forum) also made no difference, the system was still just as fragile.

 

3 Turning off the auto-addressing facility on the MM and forcing it to use a value I chose did not cure the problem.

 

I will read the postings above and see if the suggestions in them will help. I am intrigued by the mention of the "E" setting. Would this be a software fix?

 

In the meantime, thanks for the continued interest and help.

 

Chaz

[Tony_S]

Sorry about the delay guys, but I am just back from a holiday in Suffolk.

 

Here's what I found.

 

1 Plugging the MM into one of the rear sockets of the LA152 made no difference. During an operating session the system crashed a couple of times.

 

2 inserting a 20R resistor into the "L" line, to limit the current drawn by the MM (this was suggested as a possible cure on another forum) also made no difference, the system was still just as fragile.

 

3 Turning off the auto-addressing facility on the MM and forcing it to use a value I chose did not cure the problem.

 

I will read the postings above and see if the suggestions in them will help. I am intrigued by the mention of the "E" setting. Would this be a software fix?

 

In the meantime, thanks for the continued interest and help.

 

Chaz

 

All I can say is that on the club layout my Multimaus worked perfectly and that at home if I connect it to a LA152 connected by a DIN midi cable it works. The E-line setting is described on page 14 section 7.1 of the LZV100 manual (v3.6). However I can't confirm that this was the setting that had been changed on the club layout only the one I suspect it is. I'll try emailing our expert!

 

Tony