S7 scratch building

[Caley Jim]

That's the frustrating thing about the minute books I've looked at (Midland Railway various committees held at Kew) - they are records of decisions, not of the decision-making process.

And that's how any minutes should be, with no record of the discussion that led to the decision.

 

Jim

[Regularity]

And that's how any minutes should be, with no record of the discussion that led to the decision.

 

Jim

You obviously haven’t had to deal with the financial services regulators recently then!

[Poor Old Bruce]

If you want a quick L&Y van in 4mm, try using the ancient Pyramid/Rovex/Tri-ang van body with a decent underframe - but you probably know that already.

 

I didn't know that. I have typed Pyramid Rovex Triang  OO van into google images but that brings up just about anything OO. Do you have any photos of the vans to which you refer?

 

Not off hand. I was hoping to refer you to a page on Nile's bodging thread but can't find one at the mo. I will have to get back to you. PM me if you would you like it posting somewhere else to save upsetting these nice 7mm people any more than necessary.

 

Animal says he is OK with me posting on here so here we go (7mm guys go to next post if you wish  ). 

 

The Trackmaster (By Pyramid) van goes back to at least 1952. It came in all sorts of colours and liveries. Ramsay's catalogue describes it as GWR but I think the general consensus is that it is not a million miles away from a Lancashire and Yorkshire Diagram 3 6-Ton Covered Goods Wagon, some of which had roof hatches. The model has gone through several chassis in its time. The NE one shown has the original but I am not quite sire how to change the wheels as they are apparently three-rail compatible and very similar to Hornby Dublo profile. The white one has Tri-ang open axleboxes and the green one closed axleboxes. The roofs of earlier models are very prone to warping as, indeed, are some of the bodies depending on the plastic used.

 

 

The second pic shows some underframe detail which could be improved buy adding a hand brake lever and changing the wheels - Might have to go for inside bearing thingies for that.

 

 

The third pic shows mine fitted with a Dapol chassis I picked up at a swapmeet, I think it is that intended for the rectangular tank wagon. Now I have dug it out for the photo, it looks like I will have to add some transfers to it!

 

 

Hope this is of interest.

[meil]

Great work. Glad to read that your fallible like us mere mortals!

You mean not knowing the difference between your and you're for instance?

[The Bigbee Line]

Regularity, I wouldn't name names. I am mad at myself for being dragged into a spat in the first place. I feel as if I have let myself down for letting silly words get to me from someone who is of no consequence but feels a giant behind a keyboard.

 

Ruston, thank you for kind words. The van was made using drawing No 479 from Vol 2 L&Y wagons page 198 . I am not sure how long they kept this single shoe and I don't think anybody else will either.

 

Having been building wagons for over 35years my parts box has run riot, so like my loco bits that I pruned back earler this year I may go down the same root with some of these. I also have lots of plastic moulded parts from various companies.

....and I bet you still can't find the part that you need.....  My parts always seem to know when they will be needed and then they hide.......

[airnimal]

I know I have not finished the loco coal wagons but I have decided to build 3 ballast wagons to go with the ballast brake van. In Vol 3 of LNWR wagons there is a drawing of a small example only 13 feet long with straight buffers. So I started on a couple and made the headstock of another longer one at the same time. I am not sure if I want a longer one but I like the variety of different wagons in a train.

I have left the headstocks over long on the small pair to trim back to size.

I have used Peco GWR buffers which are perfect for these wagons. I will cut of the coach bolts and replace with hex bolts from MasterClub.

[airnimal]

I have decided to go with a longer third ballast wagon with the original headstock. I don't think I will do a lot more because of family visits for the next few days. At least when I get going on the body work I will be able to cut out the lot in one go, that's the theory anyway.

[airnimal]

I managed to get a couple of hours in the workshop when all the family went to my youngest daughters. I made the side and ends for the two smallest wagons and a new jig for the end pillars. This is an improvement over the last jig because this has a hole drilled in to locate in the buffer beam slot.

I cut the end pillars to size and rounded the ends with a file. I held them together in a small vice so they would all be the same size.

[The Bigbee Line]

Animal says he is OK with me posting on here so here we go (7mm guys go to next post if you wish  ). 

 

The Trackmaster (By Pyramid) van goes back to at least 1952. It came in all sorts of colours and liveries. Ramsay's catalogue describes it as GWR but I think the general consensus is that it is not a million miles away from a Lancashire and Yorkshire Diagram 3 6-Ton Covered Goods Wagon, some of which had roof hatches. The model has gone through several chassis in its time. The NE one shown has the original but I am not quite sire how to change the wheels as they are apparently three-rail compatible and very similar to Hornby Dublo profile. The white one has Tri-ang open axleboxes and the green one closed axleboxes. The roofs of earlier models are very prone to warping as, indeed, are some of the bodies depending on the plastic used.

 

P1020301.jpg

 

The second pic shows some underframe detail which could be improved buy adding a hand brake lever and changing the wheels - Might have to go for inside bearing thingies for that.

 

P1020299.jpg

 

The third pic shows mine fitted with a Dapol chassis I picked up at a swapmeet, I think it is that intended for the rectangular tank wagon. Now I have dug it out for the photo, it looks like I will have to add some transfers to it!

 

P1020300.jpg

 

Hope this is of interest.

 

In O gauge I have some 3H coal wagons with similar 'Krupps Heavy Duty Bolt Heads' I just sliced them off, the bit that gets left is a good representation. I think these 'not exactly scale' models have a charm all of their own...

[airnimal]

I managed to get a small amount done and escape from eating and drinking too much.

I reduced the height of the jig so that end pillars lined up with the top. This way all the wagons will be the same.

[airnimal]

I was up early this morning and had a couple of hours in the workshop before the boss appeared. I have now got the 16 foot one to the same stage as the 2 smaller ones. I don't have any brake levers left of the type that go under the headstock, but I do have the patterns to pantograph them. So I will have to go cap in hand to Dave at JPL and see if he can run me a few off.

That is the basic bodies done but there is still a mountain of work to do as well as getting the etched plates sorted out along with the cast letters denoting the district they belong to.

[wagonman]

Mike, I never cease to be impressed by just how CLEAN your work is! Mine is always covered in splodges of excess solvent/solder/etc...

 

Happy New Year

[airnimal]

Not much to report. I put a door stop on the longer wagon but the mojo is absent at present.

[airnimal]

Now the festivities have finished I can get back in the workshop and do a bit more on these ballast wagons.

Wagonman mentioned how clean my work is, and I am sure I have said it before about a gentleman I met many years ago called Garth Arnold. He was the founder and instigator of Stockport Model Railway Club and I was amongst the first few members. I was modelling in OO at that time and Garth was scratch building in O gauge pre-grouping LNWR. He built some fine coaches and wagons and they were all beautifully painted but the one thing I noticed was when he scribed the plank lines into the plastic, he never removed the burrs and just painted over them.

Well I was only a young lad in my early twenties just knocking out some simple wagon kits with a bit of scratch building as well. It wasn't my place to criticisize or offer my opinion, but it did have a profound effect on me. I thought Garths models were fabulous, let down a little by this one small flaw. I wonder if Garth is still alive and still modelling?

Anyway I have started to put a bit of detail on these wagons. Although they are just simple wagons there is still a fair bit of work in them and they take quite a long time to make.

The New Years resolution this year includes starting a small layout as well as keeping my promise to my better half of decorating the lounge and dining room. Also on the agenda is a trip to Australia to help my middle daughter decorate her first house before her first baby arrives in April. I did help the other 2 daughters decorate their homes so it's only right I go and help the far flung one. That's my excuse anyway, not that I can take my bike and go and have some warm weather for a short time !

Edited January 9, 2019 by airnimal

[sir douglas]

leaving the burr or cutting ridges on a pet hate of mine

[airnimal]

I have drilled a few holes in the body sides to accept the coach bolts on the inside. Unfortunately I have run out of them and I will have to wait untill I get some more. At least the holes will be there when I finely get around to ordering some more.

I mark them out with a pencil line using my square and dividers to keep them all in line. The outside ironwork can now go over the top so everthing lines up.

[airnimal]

I made a right mess yesterday of all 3 wagons. I tried to drill through the end pillars for the internal coach bolts. Trying to drill both the end pillars and the side of the wagon with a 20 thou drill in a hand held pin chuck is not to be recommended. Not only did I break a number of drills but the holes went everywhere. I then had to plug the out of line holes with plastic rod and clean everthing up once it had dried. I them remembered when I have done them before I drill the holes in the ends before putting on the end pillars.

So there was nothing's I could do but to remove the end pillars and do what I should have done in the first place. I did managed to cut them off without to much damage but it was a few hours unnecessary work with a bit of bad language.

So I have started to put the iron work on the sides which starts to bring the wagon a bit closer to being a wagon.

[scfcphil]

Mike

 

I'm interested by your technique for applying bolt heads to the inside of your wagons. I understand that basically you drill through the wagon side from the outside and cover the hole with the outside ironwork. However, how do you fit the inside ironwork accurately enough to ensure that when the rivet representing the head of the coachbolt is fitted, it sits in the centre of the iron.

 

My interest is in wagons slightly later than yours where the inside washer plates behind the corner irons are only 1.5 inches wide (0.875mm in 7mm scale) and the bolt head is 0.6mm dia so there isn't a lot of room for misalignment.

 

How do you go about maintaining sufficient accuracy to ensure eveything lines up?

 

Phil

[airnimal]

Phil,

These wagons have not got any iron work on the inside so I just mark where the holes are going to go with a pencil line and drill the holes in the sides. I mark a line on top of the wagon side so when the coach bolt goes in it hopefully lines up.

When the wagon does have iron work on the inside, I mark the ironwork and drill the holes in it before glueing in in the coach bolts in the ironwork and let it all hardened overnight. I then cut off the surplus stem flush before glueing the piece in the wagon.

A couple of not very clear photos of the markings on the wagon sides.

I think I did cover how to do the wagons in the loco coal wagon thread which has internal ironwork.

[scfcphil]

Phil,

These wagons have not got any iron work on the inside so I just mark where the holes are going to go with a pencil line and drill the holes in the sides. I mark a line on top of the wagon side so when the coach bolt goes in it hopefully lines up.

When the wagon does have iron work on the inside, I mark the ironwork and drill the holes in it before glueing in in the coach bolts in the ironwork and let it all hardened overnight. I then cut off the surplus stem flush before glueing the piece in the wagon.

A couple of not very clear photos of the markings on the wagon sides.

I think I did cover how to do the wagons in the loco coal wagon thread which has internal ironwork.

Many thanks Mike. I've looked back through the thread and found the relevant post. I'll give it a try but as some of the ironwork is represented by 1.2 mm washers, holding them for drilling should prove interesting

 

My usual method is to laminate the sides from three layers of 20 thou but before laminating, to detail the inside while it's still flat. This does allow accurate placement of boltheads but brings other problems like getting round bowing and warping.

 

I'll give your method a try. Many thanks again

 

Phil

[airnimal]

Phil,

I am interested in how you do the sides from 3 layers of plasticard. What glue do you use to glue the parts together ?

I have been using .8 rivets or coach bolts for the insides of my wagons which may be oversize. I have some .6 rivets from the same source but they seem awfully small and with my eyesight ....

 

Phil please share your building on here so we can all benefit from your take on things. I have picked everybody brains for the last 50 years but I am still learning.

 

A few photos of the 3 wagons together with the ballast brake van which will go to make up a small ballast train.

[Andy Hayter]

I made a right mess yesterday of all 3 wagons. I tried to drill through the end pillars for the internal coach bolts. Trying to drill both the end pillars and the side of the wagon with a 20 thou drill in a hand held pin chuck is not to be recommended. 

 

Do you not have a pillar drill?

No?

 

Me neither.

 

But it is times like this...……………

 

Been there and done similar - so much sympathy

[scfcphil]

Phil,

I am interested in how you do the sides from 3 layers of plasticard. What glue do you use to glue the parts together ?

I have been using .8 ri s of the 3 wagons together with the ballast brake van which will go to make up a small ballast train.

 

Mike

 

Perhaps I should explain how I arrived at my current method which, to be honest, is still evolving. Like you I've been building wagons for around 50 years but in my case in P4. About 2 years ago I was diagnosed with an eyesight condition which meant that I could no longer see sufficiently clearly to attach the nuts to the outside of wagons (in 4mm I never used to bother with bolt heads n the inside). Hence, I decided to have a go in 7mm (Scale7) and to be honest I wish I'd made the change years ago. Also, as an aid to accuracy, I took the plunge and bought a Silhouette Portrait cutter. This dictated the adoption of the lamination method as the cutter will only go through 20thou material.

 

The process is basically to draw the side and end for a wagon in your chosen drawing package. I won't go into details here as there's plenty of information available on the subject in other threads on this site. A cutting drawing is then made containing six sides and six ends. This is sent to the cutter and six very accurate sides and sends result. It is possible using different drawing layers to mark plank lines and doors etc on the inside and outside surfaces but these have to be manually scribed (deepened) with a scrawker. However, they are marked out far mare accurately than I can do manually.

 

As regards glue, following a discussion with Geoff Kent who was demonstrating at a show I visited some years ago, I started using dl-Limonene. This is a lot less fierce than MEK and gives you more time to ensure alignment when laminating. I now use it for nearly all styrene assembly but, as the drying time is longer than MEK, you have to be a bit more patient. You can get it from Hobby Holidays online but I understand that it is available in industrial quantities on a well-known auction site.

 

Given the age of some of the vehicles you build, I doubt if anyone knows how big the coach bolts were. In my period of interest (1915-1920) most of the PO wagons were built to either the 1897 or 1907 specs. Fortunately these are available and show that the bulk of the bodywork was held together with 1/2" bolts. I understand that a bolt head in 7mm scale should be 0.65mm (so my 0.6mm is slightly too small). For some reason the side door catches were fixed with 5/8"  bolts the heads heads of which should be 0.82mm. Given the advances in technology at that time, I could believe that 5/8" bolts were used during your period.

 

Unfortunately I don't have any photographs of wagon sides under construction at the moment, but I'll take  some during the next build and post them if you're interested.

 

Phil

[Regularity]

Unfortunately I don't have any photographs of wagon sides under construction at the moment, but I'll take  some during the next build and post them if you're interested.

 

Phil

Even if Mike isn’t interested, please post them anyway!

[airnimal]

Phil,

 

I am very interested in seeing your work, I am sure we can all learn something new from your approach. I have sent you a PM.

 

There was not a lot done for the last 4 or 5 days mainly domestic and social pleasures.

But I have started doing some more on the ironwork on the bodies.

I cut some half round Evergreen 40 thou for the bottom of the hinge with small round bit of black plastkard as the bolts holding the hinges on. If that makes sense.