S7 scratch building

[Dave John]

Hmm, I tend to think that a rtr 7mm wagon made to the accuracy of yours would cost an awful lot more than 40 quid . That brake gear is exquisite, but why did they put the horse loop at the brake lever end ? 

 

Compounds figures for 4mm are about right,  I reckon £10 - £15 for a scratch build wagon , heading towards the £20 - £25 mark for a kit.  

 

I had to look it up , but I gather a "deltic" represents about £ 250. Ouch. 

 

I also note that Historex are showing better stocks of rivets and bolts. It was your use of them that led me to experiment with them in 1/50 scale. Now I'm an addict .... 

 

 

 

[Schooner]

Interesting but not entirely useful to compare scratch - kit - RTR. Each represents a different position on the time:money:result continuum, and as such a very different set of compromises (or, if of @airnimal's skill and talent, very few compromises at all!).

 

Between 4mm and 7mm: shipping is essentially free per unit, warehousing likewise; material costs remarkably low; so really we're paying for research and design time, tool investment and skilled assembly. 

 

The only variance between scales is the quantity of raw material required, so it's not too surprising to me that the costs are getting ever-closer.

 

Needless to say, a beautifully evocative and characterful wagon Mike. Gorgeous stuff :)

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Schooner
IIUC, of course, which is not a given!

[airnimal]

I took the opportunity to paint my wagon while the weather was sunny this morning.  I gave it a coat of Halfords grey primer from a rattle can. I was intending to give it another coat of a darker grey but I caught the edge of one corner and made a bit of a mess of it. So I had to wait until the first coat had dried before rubbing it down and recoating it. I didn't want to put any further paint on it fearing I was going to obliterate the detail. So it will have to stay the colour with a lot of weathering later. 

 

We have finally decided we are going to move house for the final time. We have had a couple of estate agents to value our house. The value was different by what I would consider a large amount which doesn't fill me with much confidence. 

So today we went to veiw a house that looked great in the pictures, but was a total waste of time. I don't know how anybody expects to sell a house that is damp and  dirty as well as clearly neglected for the sums that they are asking for. The search goes on but I am not very hopeful looking at the area we want and the houses on offer.

[EasternO]

On 20/07/2023 at 22:35, airnimal said:

Silly me I forgot the screw couplings  !

That's another £7.00 taking the total to £36.45.  The main reason I mention my cost was the realisation that the cost of of a recent RTR 4mm wagon was nearly the same as my 7mm build. I found this unbelievable but then I don't follow 4mm modelling very much.  

 

I have replaced the bottom link on the screw couplings with a shorter one as the longer one was touching the ground. 

 

Now the talk in other threads regarding the cost in Deltic,s  is I presume just banter. Or I have missed something  ?

Great thread, I love watching it.

 

However, you've only listed the cost of parts in your comparison. The true, fair price would be £36.45 + (hourly rate x hours spent). That would make your model considerably more expensive than an RTR equivalent model. The same would apply for any scale, and would make smaller scales less viable comparisons of value because the time spent of them is similar.

 

Regardless, this thread remains one of my favourites on RMWeb.

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, EasternO said:

However, you've only listed the cost of parts in your comparison. The true, fair price would be £36.45 + (hourly rate x hours spent). That would make your model considerably more expensive than an RTR equivalent model. The same would apply for any scale, and would make smaller scales less viable comparisons of value because the time spent of them is similar.

 

Ah, but you haven't costed in the value of the fun. The build is a leisure activity and should be compared with other leisure activities. I could spend an evening scratchbuilding a wagon for £15, or I could go out to the theatre, opera, or football for something around ten times that much. So clearly I'm quids in.

[ian@stenochs]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah, but you haven't costed in the value of the fun. The build is a leisure activity and should be compared with other leisure activities. I could spend an evening scratchbuilding a wagon for £15, or I could go out to the theatre, opera, or football for something around ten times that much. So clearly I'm quids in.

I have a friend who spends about the same time on a golf course as I do in my workshop.  I know, because he constantly tells me, how much green fees are and it is way more than I spend on modelling bits.  
 

Both of us enjoy our hobby but when I go there will be a legacy of models and a workshop full of tools. My friend will leave a set of clubs!

 

Ian.

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, ian@stenochs said:

Both of us enjoy our hobby but when I go there will be a legacy of models and a workshop full of tools. My friend will leave a set of clubs!

 

I hate to say this, but I know which the executors would prefer to be dealing with...

[Dave Hunt]

I don't know how much Bob Essery spent on his hobby but when I disposed of his modelling assets after his death it would have taken a very large set of platinum plated golf clubs to match what I got for them.

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

I don't know how much Bob Essery spent on his hobby but when I disposed of his modelling assets after his death it would have taken a very large set of platinum plated golf clubs to match what I got for them.

 

But the effort you had to put in was undoubtedly much greater than if it had been golf clubs.

[Dave Hunt]

39 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But the effort you had to put in was undoubtedly much greater than if it had been golf clubs.

 

Oh, I don't know. I think I'd have had a job selling any platinum plated golf clubs at the Warley club.

 

Dave

[airnimal]

Many thanks for all the positive comments.  I wish I was as positive myself. 

The last few days have been both up and down.  We need to move house but why is it so stressful ?  I am sure that there are good estate agents as well as bad but recent experiences have been a mixed bag. All we want is a house in our preferred location but all we can find is great houses in the wrong places and horrible houses in great locations.  Such is life. 

 

Then 3 weeks before this wedding I have broken one of my front teeth leaving a large gap. I was eating a kiwi fruit and got a seed stuck between a couple of teeth and when I came to dislodge it it broke an old repair that had been in place for 50 years. To cap it all, both the groom and my brother have done the same thing but doing different activities.  It's not what I needed so close to the wedding both in terms of cost and trying to get an appointment at my dentist.  No doubt when I phone first thing in the morning it will be  a long wait unless I wish to go private. And then just to make me feel better I have just got a parking ticket.  We have been out for a meal to celebrate my friend's 80 birthday and I parked in a council carpark that used to be free on Sundays. Because it was poring rain I didn't go and check because my wife informed me it was free. Big mistake.  

 

I have painted and assembled my wagon as best as I can. There has been a few hiccups along the way as usual including putting the stanchions in the blackening liquid because the rings are brass. I have found out that it attacks aluminium leaving it full of holes and I only left it in a few minutes.  The paintwork will need touching up in various places where I have caught the surfaces and rubbed the paint off.

 

[Simond]

Michael,

 

I can sympathise with the tooth.  One of my upper central incisors broke a few months following post-Covid fillings.  Doesn’t hurt, but looks horrible.  I’ve been told to budget £3100 for an implant :(
 

As I live closer to France than to London, I’m making enquiries about getting it sorted across the channel, it may be cheaper, and I consider the quality will be same or better.  
 

Good luck!

Simon

[Andy Hayter]

13 minutes ago, Simond said:

Michael,

 

I can sympathise with the tooth.  One of my upper central incisors broke a few months following post-Covid fillings.  Doesn’t hurt, but looks horrible.  I’ve been told to budget £3100 for an implant :(
 

As I live closer to France than to London, I’m making enquiries about getting it sorted across the channel, it may be cheaper, and I consider the quality will be same or better.  
 

Good luck!

Simon

From what I have seen of French dental prices, don't hold your breath Simon.

 

The prices are so high that our dentist has a poster in his waiting room showing what he has to pay to keep the practice going.  30k for a chair, 15k for the lights (both replaced every 5 years or less) , and so on.  I am not suggesting he is ripping folk off, it is just a very expensive business

[Caley Jim]

Dentists in England have been working for many years under an NHS contract which even a Parliamentary committee have said is not fit for purpose, with the result that it has become increasingly unviable from a business point of view.  Those who have gone private have, in the main, done so to keep themselves in business while providing the standard of service and treatment which patients deserve, not to line their own pockets.  I have said for many years that successive governments would like to see dentistry out of the NHS and are creating a situation where they can blame the big, bad, greedy dentists for it happening.  (end of rant)

 

Jim (retired GDP)

Edited July 23, 2023 by Caley Jim
Typos

[airnimal]

I happy to say that I have an appointment at my dentist next Monday. I could have had one on Thursday this week but I have an appointment somewhere else on that day. I have been at the same dental practice for over 50 years and I have had fantastic service from them over the years. 

 

I have nearly finished this wagon with just the matt varnish to put on and the weathering to complete. The colour is a lot lighter than previously wagon that I have made from the L&Y but I didn't want to add more paint and obscure the detail. 

The number is a unknown one from the right era but not traceable to a particular wagon. 

 

I have closed the gap between the springs and the solebar's and placed the dots between the tare weight numbers a little higher up. A photograph always shows the errors that the eye misses. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by airnimal
More text after the photographs.

[Simond]

that bolster is particularly lovely, it has the “airiness” of the real thing, often lacking in models which I find can look a little chunky.

[airnimal]

After finishing the bolster wagon I had a spare LNWR wagon underframe doing nothing along with a set of number plates for a small cattle wagon. The obvious choice then without thinking much about it which would prove to be the wrong one. After cutting out the ends and sides it became clear I have made the a big mistake which would not be easy to rectify.  I had put the floor on top of the solebar's which blocked the view under the bottom plank on the sides. I did try cutting back and beveling the floor but it was never going to look right. The only thing for it was dump it on the scrap pile again. I rescued the brass nuts and the wheels and W-irons to be used again. With so much going on at present at home my concentration levels are just not there.

 

 

Having said that I had a good day today because I went with my pal Philip to visit a good friend and help him pack up some of his models that he wishes to dispose of because he has health problems that are only going to get progressively worst. I was able to buy a wagon from him that I had admired for a long time. My friend Philip spent a fortune but I was aware of my looming financial constraints and limited myself to just the one wagon. We both paid the market rates and not best mates rates because he is such a long time loyal friend and the proceeds are going to his family who have there own personal problems. 

The wagon I bought is a LNWR one plank wagon with a furniture container which was scratch built and hand lettered. This wagon is finescale but I have the parts necessary to convert it to S7.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by airnimal

[magmouse]

The container looks great, and the hand-lettering is especially fine - a nice addition to your collection, and up to your high standards.

 

Nick.

[Dave Hunt]

A master class on lettering if ever I saw one.

 

Dave

[airnimal]

I was so taken with the wagon I have acquired that it has spurred me on to building a container for one of my wagons. The side and ends and base are made from 80 thou plasticard which give a solid feel to it.

I remember to drill holes in the base to release any fumes which can build up and cause the body to pop open in years to come. There is still some more details to put on before I get around to painting and lettering it. I will go to my local library and go through the trade directory for the 1890's and find a suitable candidate.  What ever I find I doubt if I will be able to match the quality of finish of the container from my friends collection but it's the standards I will try to aim at. 

 

Other news include at long last my good lady at last has found a dress for the wedding ! Hoorah. 

It's only taken nearly 8 weeks but now the hunt is on for the shoes to go with it.  A braver man than me would point out the huge pile of shoes both in the wardrobe as well as the coat / shoe cupboard under the stairs. We have also put our house on the market and viewed several yesterday including one that nearly fits the bill. If I haven't got enough to think about my cycling chums are arranging a trip to Bulgaria for a couple of weeks after the wedding.  After the lock down where we did nothing for nearly 3 years life has become very hectic. 

 

[Western Star]

Now that solid-looking and exquisite roof requires some explanation as to how your have modelled the part.

 

regards, Graham

[magmouse]

Looking good. Are you working from a drawing, or just photos?

 

Nick.

[airnimal]

Graham,  the sides and ends of the container were cut out and checked for size. Once the ends have been cut, I turn one end around and check again putting them back to back to make sure they are the same and they both fit the roof profile whichever way they are placed. Once stuck together they are left to dry before the join is smoothed out and the pre cut moulded roof is glued on. A very thin line under the roof has a tiny amount of filler rubbed into the join and sanded back once dry. Because of the beading on the sides I made sure that everything was parallel and straight because it would be obvious if there was any error. 

 

Nick, I was going to try and make a copy of the photograph in the wagon book with the lettering of the Manchester Pantechnicon on the wagon in Shallcross yard. I tried to make a drawing from the photograph so I could trace it and hopefully apply it to the container side and hand paint it.  But with all distractions of life at present and coupled with failing eyesight and arthritic fingers I have given up in disgust.

So I am making one that has elements of the real thing without it being 100% accurate to one particular prototype.  I did say that standards are slipping and when I think back to when I have scrapped a wagon for being a few thou out after spending 40 hours work building it. 

 

I went out yesterday cycling with my chums who confirmed the the trip to Bulgaria has been booked only to get home find my good lady and a pile of boxes of pink shoes. After measuring the size of the heels for her and wooing in the right places as she paraded up and down the lounge, it was deemed that none is quite up to specification and they are all going back. Deep joy !

[airnimal]

I have put the locking bar on thr front door made from .6mm brass wire and twisted fine wire. 

 

I have been in contact with John Petcher who built the furniture container that I recently bought who told me that the W-irons were glued the wagon with Evostick before dripping superglue down the join once everything was lined up. So I may apply some superglue debonder to try and release the join before replacing the parts needed to convert to S7. I am very aware that I have to get this right because I didn't make this wagon and it would be a travesty to damage it. John also confirmed that the container was lettered by Alan Brackenborough. I feel very privileged to own such a masterpiece. 

 

Other news is I now have a front tooth and a lighter wallet thanks to my friendly dentist.  We also have 2 more houses to veiw tomorrow and another on Wednesday.  

Edited September 27, 2023 by airnimal

[Compound2632]

It took me a moment or two to work that photo out!