Hawksworth slip coach

[Brian Kirby]

Very nice Brian. Did you cop out of changing the bogies to the 9' Plate type?  Airfix and Hornby do this bogie for the Centenary stock and Auto Coach but they have stepboards, so you would need to build plain cast ones.   

Thanks Larry, but mentioning the bogies, these regular Pressed Steel type are correct for this vehicle (curved bottom corners), see pic of this very coach in Harris's "GW Coaches"(1985) page 111 (or did they change to Plate bogies in slip condition???). Dare I say it, perhaps you were thinking of the early Collett versions? From memory, there were early Collett slips (1929?) and late Collett slips (Sunshine late 30s), the latter could be seen in crimson+c, chocolate+c, and maroon liveries, towards the end of the fifties. Does anyone know if any of these late Colletts saw further use after 1960?

A further thought, maybe you're thinking of when Airfix famously put the wrong bogies on their Centenary stock (apologies to all owners of Airfix/Mainline/Hornby Centenaries! :-))  ). For some reason they stuck Pressed Steel type under them (blame the researchers), whereas they should have used 9ft Plate type, as on their own autocoach. However, the good news is it makes converting an Airfix Centenary into a Super-Saloon (which did have Pressed Steel type), a lot easier!

                                       Cheers, Brian.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Brian Kirby

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Brian, All the Slip coaches got the heavy 9' plate bogies including the Hawksworth conversions.  It's the kind of detail one noticed when painting things and I had written a note to this effect in Harris's GWR coach book many years ago. Believe me I am not leading you astray.... 

Hi again Larry (The Guvnor)

       For a minute, I was quite astonished, but what you say is perfectly possible, although it's a new one on me? As far as I know, the Pressed Steel bogie was a cheaper and lighter type, maybe the heavier Plate type was used for safety? It's just occurred to me, that as a free-running Slip coach, it would require guard irons both ends, so maybe it was easier to attach them to the Plate bogies, or they re-used some already fitted with irons, from an older Slip coach? However. I have a "get-out-of-jail card", my one is a de-fitted Slip, which has been through the shops at Swindon, and had Pressed Steel bogies re-fitted (as per Harris pic, page 111). Thanks for the heads-up on this, I bet someone else will say they knew this all the time, but we'll all be squinting at photos with magnifying glasses all night now! I can certainly apply this knowledge to my forthcoming chocolate example.

                                                                                        Cheers, Brian.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Brian Kirby

[Brian Kirby]

Just been getting the serious books out, difficult finding a sharp and clear picture of a Hawksworth in slip-operating condition. However, the Oakwood Press book "History Of Slipping And Slip Carriages" (1997), does contain pics of both early and late Collett Slips. Both types are shown running on the 9ft Plate bogies, I would have expected a coach built in 1938 to be running on Pressed Steel bogies. Under the cabs there are heavy brackets and pull-rods, which may have dictated use of the Plate bogies? My theory of guard irons has gone up in smoke already, none of 'em 'ad 'em!     BK

[phil_sutters]

 

 W7376W was photographed at Highbridge on the Somerset and Dorset in 1965.

 

Chris

 

Whether this is W7376W or not - the window arrangement seems to match the slips, but if they had been converted into slips, then I suppose it could be an unconverted original.

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/76397-bh15-cl2-262t-41243-hbr-27-3-65/

edit - the rear coach in this train seems similar - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/sizes/76399-bh17-41206-ivatt-262t-leaving-hbr-27-5-65/medium/

However this one could have been W7346W - not one of the slip conversions as indicated above - which can be seen in this shot - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/sizes/76408-cl2-262t-41206-highbridge-4-9-1965/large/

If the slips remained in chocolate and cream, I can't see any evidence of anything in that livery in Dad's photos from 1965 - with the possible exception of this shot although I think it is the reflected light that might give that impression. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/sizes/76400-bh18-at-highbridge-23rd-june-1965/large/

I have a faint recollection of being 'slipped', at Westbury I think, but I don't remember whether we continued to Frome in the slip coach or if we had to change in Westbury station,

Edited May 4, 2017 by phil_sutters

[chrisf]

Phil, the first two images show unconverted Collett coaches,  The third, W7346W, is an unconverted Hawksworth and the fourth is too.  A good way of spotting the converted ones is the modified underframe.

 

Chris

[phil_sutters]

Phil, the first two images show unconverted Collett coaches,  The third, W7346W, is an unconverted Hawksworth and the fourth is too.  A good way of spotting the converted ones is the modified underframe.

 

Chris

Thanks for scrutinizing the photos and giving pointers to identifying the slips, Chris.

[Brian Kirby]

Sorry Larry, i'm not convinced of this 9ft Plate bogie on Hawksworth Slip theory. Here's the clearest image I can find, of a Hawk Slip in working slip condition, and they still look like Pressed Steel bogies to my eyes. For me, the clues are the flanged curved bottom corner, under the nearest spring, plus the angled end to the bogie frame. On the other hand, a Plate bogie would have a near right-angled bottom corner, and squared-off frame ends.      BK

 

http://www.robertdarlaston.co.uk/Railways50yr_files/image145.jpg

[Brian Kirby]

However, Larry's theory certainly holds true for this 1938 Collett Slip, which happens to be depicted here in BR Chocolate in around 1958-60, clearly running on 9ft Plate bogies, whereas most late-build Collett coaches would be seen on Pressed Steel bogies. You can see the sharp-angled bottom corner to the bogie frame, and it's squarer ends.  BK

 

http://lowres-picturecabinet.com.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/43/main/60/440374.jpg

[ejstubbs]

Something I keep forgetting to ask: what's the bell for?  Both the converted Hawksworth and the Collett slips have one - bottom right of the middle window.

[Gordon A]

Audible warning device for use after the coach has been slipped that can be operated by the slip guard.

Same reason as fitted to auto coaches.

 

Gordon A

[The Johnster]

The bell was operated by a foot pedal on the auto trailers, and I assume the same system was used on the slips.  Introduced on auto trailers because, in the event of a loco propelling 2 70' trailers the loco whistle was about 150' further away from you than the front of the approaching train, an issue for men working on or around the track, and of course some means of warning of the approach of a slipped coach, effectively another train much sooner than anyone would expect after the last one, was vital as men would naturally be returning to their work positions on the track just as the slip rolled up!

[w124bob]

I was about to post else where about pictures which appear in Hugh Ballantyne's book The S&D Remembered Pt2, odd Hawksworth with end windows and underframe cylinders. Anyway now I know at least one slip coach lived out it's days on the Highbridge branch. Page 62 side shot but not good, 47 slightly closer shot of the gaurds compartment end, there are a few other shots but almost all nearly end on. I'm off to check out my Betjemen DVD see if a slip coach creeps into shot anywhere.

[coachmann]

ADENDUM

 

When converted to slip coaches and given the older Plate 9' bogies, I am not sure if the bogies centres were altered to clear slip equipment.  I have mentioned this because it is unlikely they were changed back to the original bogie centres when the slip equipment was removed.

 

​When the slip equipment was removed, it seems they were given back their pressed steel bogies, but they retained the wider spaced trussing and cylinders. At least one is known to have lost its chocolate & cream with totem and been repainted lined maroon with the then-new yellow stripe in the cantrail denoting first class.

 

I spent some time this morning going through my GWR drawing file because I know I had information on these slip conversions at one time when Derek Lawrence and I produced a batch in aluminium. Trouble is, I had a good clear out in 2004 after Derek passed away. I did not find what I was looking for.

Edited August 13, 2018 by coachmann

[Phil Bullock]

There is a film of the final slip coach working to Bicester on the Railway Roundabout To The End Of The Line DVD; it's the last segment on the DVD.  It includes views of both sides of the slip coach:

 

 

 

The commentary states that it was one of the three converted Hawksworths, number 7374 (there doesn't seem to be a clear view of the coach's number to confirm this, unfortunately).  The film also includes some interesting footage of the departure from Paddington, including a Castle and a Warship stabled together at Ranelagh Bridge.

 

A fascinating thread!

 

That clip is also available on youtube...

 

 

Cheers

Phil

[coachmann]

Interesting YouTube clip. Thanks for the link Phil. 

[Phatbob]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_10_2017/post-1557-0-20758400-1508578557.jpg

A link to the thread on my "Bodmin Generally" showing Mike Peace's model of a Hawksworth slip coach (converted Hornby).