What's the difference?

[PatB]

It's not as if a coat of paint and/or a change of nameplate irreversibly affects the basic fabric of the loco, so I don't really see a problem.

 

Besides, the loco knows who it is .

[Stubby47]

Besides, the loco knows who it is .

 

Not necessarily true - I do feel for this loco...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Sam

[Guy Rixon]

I'd say that anybody making this kind of change to a historic artefact has two, moral obligations. First, they record the changes, in enough detail to satisfy both historians and detail freaks, and make that record public (i.e. on the WWW). Second, where original parts, like name and number plates are exchanged, they keep the originals. Changing to reproduction nameplates and selling the originals on for cash would be unhelpful to future researchers.

[Nearholmer]

"historic artefact"

 

This is probably what it hinges on: is it an 'historic artefact'; or, a bit of old scrap-iron that has, temporarily, had life breathed back into it.

 

I think it might be possible to advance an argument that, given that several Bulleid pacifics are still with us, and that even at a stretch one example would serve the purposes of history, the rest are animate(or not) scrap-iron.

 

Is even one needed for the purposes of history ...... debatable. One in near-original condition might serve to illustrate use of welding and a high boiler pressure, or a non-conventional valvegear, but most of that can probably be understood without more than the sectioned one in the national collection and a good documentary record.

 

Same debate can be had about thatched cottages, of course. How many do we need in order to illustrate construction techniques and living conditions in "the old days"???

 

Kevin

[Dunsignalling]

I'd say that anybody making this kind of change to a historic artefact has two, moral obligations. First, they record the changes, in enough detail to satisfy both historians and detail freaks, and make that record public (i.e. on the WWW). Second, where original parts, like name and number plates are exchanged, they keep the originals. Changing to reproduction nameplates and selling the originals on for cash would be unhelpful to future researchers.

I don't think there is even one steam locomotive that is active on the main line that comes close to qualifying as an historic artefact, except (arguably) 'Tornado'.

 

In the case of Braunton / Lord Dowding, the inclusion of the word "Rebuilt" in its class description offers a clue. 

 

Even locos that didn't spend a decade or two in a scrap yard incorporate so many new parts that they are at least as much replicated as restored. Then there's all the new technology required to make them "legal" on todays railway, and the tweaks that had to be applied to make it fit unobtrusively.......  

 

As for nameplates; in most cases, the originals were sold off long before preservationists or the current owners acquired the locos so reproductions are the norm. AFAIK, the NRM doesn't even own the ones that were on Flying Scotsman when it was sold by BR.

 

John

[BlackRat]

No preserv d steam is original, they have all been rebuilt, new parts, parts swapped, repainted etc etc etc.

 

Sometimes it's a bit like Triggers broom!

 

What actually consists an original loco then? Frames? Boiler? Name plates????

[Nearholmer]

I'll probably get sent to the philistine corner in a minute, but I even wonder about the value of some of the fascinating industrial archaeology conducted on very old steam locos to understand metallurgy, construction technique etc.

 

They make for excellent academic papers to conferences, but in a broader sense, what do they add to the sum of human happiness? Is it effort well-spent?

 

Ditto lots of other historical research on all sorts of subjects.

 

I'm not saying "it's wrong", merely asking myself"is it worthwhile?".

 

K

[Reorte]

Same debate can be had about thatched cottages, of course. How many do we need in order to illustrate construction techniques and living conditions in "the old days"???

You'd have to ask yourself is that what you're doing with them. None that are actually inhabited will bear much resemblence at all to how they were lived in a couple of centuries ago, far more of a difference than a loco having to have some alterations to be allowed to run on the railway these days. Are you keeping them just as a matter of record, or do you feel there's inherent value in something unchanged (or at least similar, even if it's a Trigger's Broom)?

[Reorte]

I'll probably get sent to the philistine corner in a minute, but I even wonder about the value of some of the fascinating industrial archaeology conducted on very old steam locos to understand metallurgy, construction technique etc.

 

They make for excellent academic papers to conferences, but in a broader sense, what do they add to the sum of human happiness? Is it effort well-spent?

 

Ditto lots of other historical research on all sorts of subjects.

 

I'm not saying "it's wrong", merely asking myself"is it worthwhile?".

I'd only throw the "philistine" label on you if you stated it as a fact instead of a question, because it's an entirely reasonabel quesiton. Is it worthwhile? That's down to every individual, what they feel has worth. There's no hard and fast answer. Personally I'd say "yes", knowledge about anything you're curious about adds to happiness, and there are people curious about such things.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

The interesting part about him is he takes the complete opposite to a hands on approach as you can get. As far as I know he's been on very few trips hauled by his locomotives, the 90mph A4 one and the Crystal Palace FC trip are about the only ones that come to mind. We never see him at Southall and I'm pretty sure he doesn't visit his empire at Crewe much either.

 

Btw it's Hosking...

I would surmise that Mr Hosking has sussed how to make money running steam engines. Perhaps not huge margins but adequate enough to justify both the investment and the reward of ownership of such an asset. as all good business men I doubt he really cares about what the engines all do, only that they turn a profit so he can re-invest.

[Dunsignalling]

No preserv d steam is original, they have all been rebuilt, new parts, parts swapped, repainted etc etc etc.

 

Sometimes it's a bit like Triggers broom!

 

What actually consists an original loco then? Frames? Boiler? Name plates????

Supposedly the frames, but that's not foolproof as demonstrated when a preserved Black Five was stripped down and the numbers on the various components revealed it to contain parts previously fitted to well over a dozen other locos, not all of them Black Fives. The right and left frames didn't have matching numbers.

 

I'd say, in many cases, it's far more extreme than Trigger's Broom!

 

John

[PhilH]

I'll probably get sent to the philistine corner in a minute, but I even wonder about the value of some of the fascinating industrial archaeology conducted on very old steam locos to understand metallurgy, construction technique etc.

They make for excellent academic papers to conferences, but in a broader sense, what do they add to the sum of human happiness? Is it effort well-spent?

Ditto lots of other historical research on all sorts of subjects.

I'm not saying "it's wrong", merely asking myself"is it worthwhile?".

K

Who's to judge?

 

One man's meat is another man's poison as my old granny used to say.

[PhilH]

I would surmise that Mr Hosking has sussed how to make money running steam engines. Perhaps not huge margins but adequate enough to justify both the investment and the reward of ownership of such an asset. as all good business men I doubt he really cares about what the engines all do, only that they turn a profit so he can re-invest.

Nope. The only thing vaguely on the plus side as regards his steam operations is that he can set the losses against his other businesses for tax reduction purposes.

 

He ploughs an absolute fortune into it.

[cal.n]

 

I've often thought he could get agreement to slap 'Mallard' plates and plaques on Bittern and send the hobby into meltdown.

 

I would personally love to see this, I suspect it will never happen because Mallard still exists

 

I can imagine that, for example, Duchess of Sutherland being renamed/numbered into another Duchess that no longer exists. It could even get to the point where locos are being renamed from specific charters (e.g a Duchess being renamed 'City of Glasgow' for a charter to Glasgow ect.)

[Dunsignalling]

Nope. The only thing vaguely on the plus side as regards his steam operations is that he can set the losses against his other businesses for tax reduction purposes.

 

He ploughs an absolute fortune into it.

If it means we get to enjoy main line steam engines running at sensible speeds for another decade or two, more power to his elbow.

 

There are many far less worthy activities being part-financed out of tax reliefs of one sort or another. 

 

John

[Ozexpatriate]

I can imagine that, for example, Duchess of Sutherland being renamed/numbered into another Duchess that no longer exists.

Or never existed on a historical locomotive, but does in a contemporary person.

 

"Duchess of Cornwall" comes to mind. I wonder how people would react to that?

[Nearholmer]

"Who's to judge?"

 

I'm not at all sure.

 

Should the hobbies of very rich men be questioned?

 

When it comes to academics pursuing deep, narrow, research, the public purse is paying, and somebody is clearly making value-judgements somewhere.

 

Since, according to someone very close to me, I waste too much money on hobbies "just because you think they're interesting", it might not be wise for me to pursue this line too much further .......

 

What is definitely true is that 'man cannot live by bread alone'.

 

K

[Iain Popplewell]

 Let us all just be hopeful that a certain rich man called Donald doesn't start to collect railway engines.

 

 I think that having engines named Trump 1, Trump 2, Trump 3 etc.  might be a step too far.

[Iain Popplewell]

Supposedly the frames, but that's not foolproof as demonstrated when a preserved Black Five was stripped down and the numbers on the various components revealed it to contain parts previously fitted to well over a dozen other locos, not all of them Black Fives. The right and left frames didn't have matching numbers.

 

I'd say, in many cases, it's far more extreme than Trigger's Broom!

 

John

 

 Even though the frame numbers didn't match I presume they both came from a black five. If one came from a Black Five and the other from say a 9F you might find trouble getting the axle holes to line up. 

 

 The Black Five in question wasn't built from a  Jidenco kit by any chance was it.

[tomparryharry]

 Let us all just be hopeful that a certain rich man called Donald doesn't start to collect railway engines.

 

 I think that having engines named Trump 1, Trump 2, Trump 3 etc.  might be a step too far.

He  could have his own railway station, called Trumpton.

 

Oh, hang on.......

[Nearholmer]

My young children use the word "trump" to mean the emission of noise and evil smells from the posterior .........

 

K

[Reorte]

 Even though the frame numbers didn't match I presume they both came from a black five. If one came from a Black Five and the other from say a 9F you might find trouble getting the axle holes to line up. 

Might go some way to explain the rough riding of Black Fives mentioned in another thread though, if clown car wheel alignment is what they ended up with!

[PatB]

The "Trigger's broom" joke, along with this thread, does, of course, raise an interesting philosophical question about the existence of objects. In the eponymous case, it can be said that, whilst no original  component parts remain, there has, for a specified period of time and without significant interruption, been a particular broom shaped piece of the universe corresponding to "Trigger's Broom".

 

Similarly, applied to railway engines and taking the obvious example, since the 1920s there has been a large lump (or, for several years recently, a loose collection of component parts) of assorted metals named Flying Scotsman. That what constitutes this lump in 2017 contains almost nothing of what constituted it in 1923 is of almost no relevance, because, disparate and non-original though they may be, the replacement parts have, over the course of 90 years, been slotted into that bit of the universe which we have designated to be Flying Scotsman. The object exists almost independent of the origin and age of its component parts.

 

I could probably have explained it better if I was a proper philosopher but I generally find proper philosophy makes my head hurt .

[Dunsignalling]

 Even though the frame numbers didn't match I presume they both came from a black five. If one came from a Black Five and the other from say a 9F you might find trouble getting the axle holes to line up. 

 

 The Black Five in question wasn't built from a  Jidenco kit by any chance was it.

They were. If they hadn't been, the behaviour of the loco on RH curves would very likely have differed from what it did going round left-handers. 

 

As the proud (!) owner of a Jidenco Adams Radial, you might think that, but I couldn't possibly comment.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

The "Trigger's broom" joke, along with this thread, does, of course, raise an interesting philosophical question about the existence of objects. In the eponymous case, it can be said that, whilst no original  component parts remain, there has, for a specified period of time and without significant interruption, been a particular broom shaped piece of the universe corresponding to "Trigger's Broom".

 

Similarly, applied to railway engines and taking the obvious example, since the 1920s there has been a large lump (or, for several years recently, a loose collection of component parts) of assorted metals named Flying Scotsman. That what constitutes this lump in 2017 contains almost nothing of what constituted it in 1923 is of almost no relevance, because, disparate and non-original though they may be, the replacement parts have, over the course of 90 years, been slotted into that bit of the universe which we have designated to be Flying Scotsman. The object exists almost independent of the origin and age of its component parts.

 

I could probably have explained it better if I was a proper philosopher but I generally find proper philosophy makes my head hurt .

Mod4 will be grateful for your taking the strain off his diodes..........