For those interested in old buses (and coaches)

[Moxy]

I can't find a picture of it at the moment, but Greater Manchester Buses used to have one operating out of their Bury depot.

 

I believe it was one they rebuilt themselves after accident damage. (It had an argument with a bridge. The bridge won).  It looked a bit like the Glasgow one, but with a higher roof line.

 

The strangest thing about it was the seating arrangements.  Instead of the 2+2 seating you would expect, the front half of the bus was bench seats all down both sides and loads of standing room in the middle.

 

I only saw it the once on a Bolton to Bury service, and then it was either withdrawn or transferred somewhere else.

[great central]

Nottingham had this as a single deck Atlantean

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:South_Notts_bus_55_(RAU_804M),_2011_Trans_Lancs_bus_rally.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

[laurenceb]

1 hour ago, Moxy said:

I can't find a picture of it at the moment, but Greater Manchester Buses used to have one operating out of their Bury depot.

 

I believe it was one they rebuilt themselves after accident damage. (It had an argument with a bridge. The bridge won).  It looked a bit like the Glasgow one, but with a higher roof line.

 

The strangest thing about it was the seating arrangements.  Instead of the 2+2 seating you would expect, the front half of the bus was bench seats all down both sides and loads of standing room in the middle.

 

I only saw it the once on a Bolton to Bury service, and then it was either withdrawn or transferred somewhere else.

IIRC GMB forgot to recertify it as a sindle dekka and when it was sold (to Black Prince of Morley I think) on this caused no end of problems leading to the scapyard PDQ

[J. S. Bach]

Those cut-downs do not look odd to me, but then double-deckers never went over very well here. A modern one was demonstrated to us (Broward County):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by J. S. Bach
To change a few minor items for better reading flow.

[PhilJ W]

Widespread double deck operation is not possible in many parts of the USA due to many low overhead structures and cables. There are some roads where even single deck buses would be too high. I remember driving out of New York on an expressway where the bridges were so low that the only PSV's that could use it were stretched Chevrolet Suburban's. I can't remember the name of the expressway but I was heading for Connecticut, this was in 1978. 

[Moxy]

3 hours ago, Moxy said:

I can't find a picture of it at the moment, but Greater Manchester Buses used to have one operating out of their Bury depot.

 

I believe it was one they rebuilt themselves after accident damage. (It had an argument with a bridge. The bridge won).  It looked a bit like the Glasgow one, but with a higher roof line.

 

The strangest thing about it was the seating arrangements.  Instead of the 2+2 seating you would expect, the front half of the bus was bench seats all down both sides and loads of standing room in the middle.

 

I only saw it the once on a Bolton to Bury service, and then it was either withdrawn or transferred somewhere else.

 

Finally found it. It was 1697, ex Lancashire United.  It was a Leyland Fleetline, not an Atlantean

 

Links here (not my photos)

Front and back

 

I don't think having the white roof did it any favours livery wise.  It was an ugly thing wasn't it?

 

[stewartingram]

I think Lytham Corpn had a couple of Atlanteans that were rebuilt as sd later in their life, but I can't find any info on them at the moment.

[5 C]

WMPTE rebuilt a double deck Fleetline to single deck but out of economic necessity rather than any low bridge encounter.

 

Taking inspiration from other operators rebuilt Atlanteans, it was a trial to utilise their unused Fleetlines. It wasn't a success. The resulting one-off vehicle is preserved at Wythall: http://www.wythall.org.uk/vehicles/vwda956t.asp

[J. S. Bach]

3 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

Widespread double deck operation is not possible in many parts of the USA due to many low overhead structures and cables. There are some roads where even single deck buses would be too high. I remember driving out of New York on an expressway where the bridges were so low that the only PSV's that could use it were stretched Chevrolet Suburban's. I can't remember the name of the expressway but I was heading for Connecticut, this was in 1978. 

Merritt Parkway.

[John M Upton]

Southampton CityBus (the old Corporation as was) tried new East Lancs single deck bodies on a couple of their old Atlantean double decker chassis in the early 1990's.  They were not a sucessful I gather and even got farmed out to other operators such as Brighton Buses here who used two on Park & Ride duties for a while where I think they displaced the unique Bedford JJL's.

 

[PhilJ W]

1 hour ago, J. S. Bach said:

Merritt Parkway.

Thanks, thats the one. It happened to be the evening rush hour. Those stretched Suburbans took no prisoners.

[leopardml2341]

Random question:

 

Does anyone know what font was used, on the white in black linen blinds, by Southern National in the sixties and seventies?

[Busmansholiday]

Quite a few operators bought single deck versions of Fleetlines (Rotherham, Mexborough & Swinton (Yorkshire Traction), Dundee - there was an Alexander bodied demonstrater in their colours) and Atlanteans (Portsmouth, Gt Yarmouth). Some were rebodied as single decks but initially were unsucessful as the operators didn't change the springs which resulted in a rock hard ride and body damage. 

[leopardml2341]

I remember Rotherham's ones well, quite a surprise when they first arrived 1970/71 (NET169 and 170J). The previous single deck fleet had been largely AEC reliance, with the odd aged Bristol still clinging on.

 

They couldn't have been considered successful though as the next batch (WET171-179L) of single deckers (in a mainly double deck fleet) were Seddon Pennines with Plaxton Derwent bodies - not RCT's finest hour  but better than the impending PTE enforced switch to Leyland Nationals.

Edited December 31, 2020 by leopardml2341

[37114]

16 hours ago, laurenceb said:

IIRC GMB forgot to recertify it as a sindle dekka and when it was sold (to Black Prince of Morley I think) on this caused no end of problems leading to the scapyard PDQ

That was an ex Strathclyde Aisla  MGE185P in the Black Prince case, full explanation in the link below. Dreadful looking bus and it had structural issues which led the front of the bus to droop down as well.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nedbasher/6583137113/in/photolist-91xwEH-2iMaqwj-wPZ7yJ-dhBu2D-onpC5R-b8qwbV-2jD7rvu-nMWRgr-b2Jij2-dhizNo-boU6yV-dAosKd-aSv4aF-aXkhYa-nMWRf4-bnCcB6-2dK4VE5-e5t3hU-jSY8cc-bfg7Jn

 

[PhilJ W]

The Ailsa, like the Guy Wulfrunian before it suffered from having too much weight ahead of the front axle. I travelled on a preserved Ailsa a couple of years ago where it had had the first row of seats upstairs removed and roped off apparently to stop stressing the body.

[Gwiwer]

22 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

The Ailsa, like the Guy Wulfrunian before it suffered from having too much weight ahead of the front axle. I travelled on a preserved Ailsa a couple of years ago where it had had the first row of seats upstairs removed and roped off apparently to stop stressing the body.

I have travelled on a few in service.  

 

Maidstone & District had a few as part of an NBC evaluation to compare the standard Bristol VRT with other types.  They also had Dennis Dominators and MCW Metropolitans.  The poor beast I boarded bounced uncomfortably over the streets of Hastings and the driver appeared to be both baked and seasick.  It was noisy and hot inside.  

 

South Yorkshire PTE produced one on the Sheffield - Darnall route I used when seeing a lass in that area.  At the time it was also crew-operated and SYPTE cheap fares applied.  When I was more accustomed to parting with 50p or more at the sharp end it came as a surprise to be asked for just 9p by a traditional roving conductor.  But the vehicle itself was in dreadful condition.  Very hot inside, airless, bouncy at the rear and screaming like a banshee.  I suspect there was a gearbox problem because we barely managed more than a crawl despite the engine revving fit to enter earth orbit.  A truly dreadful experience.  

 

And there were the London ones.  I have no record of a trip on any of the three vehicle-evaluation ones but several on the second-hand ones purchased later and mostly on suburban route 242 between Waltham Cross and Potters Bar.  That was a lightly-used route so the vehicles were near-empty once clear of the houses north of Waltham Cross.  Again it was hot inside, again very bouncy and uncomfortably so upstairs, and again the engine was whining in a demented fashion, making a lot of noise but producing little in the way of forward motion for it.  

 

I also had the misfortune to make several journeys in NBCs Ford R1114 coaches purchased in bulk for a couple of years and for express services.  Also a front-engined design and with many of the same faults but magnified with higher speeds and longer journey times.  

 

Truly dreadful experiences which would surely have put many people off using public transport.  

[PhilJ W]

The Ailsa (Volvo) engine was the smallest lightest engine they had.  IIRC it was about 5 litres with a turbocharger. Turbochargers are better for longer distances but not on urban bus work with its stop/start nature. The gearboxes IIRC were designed for construction plant and were chosen because they fitted under the floor. There was an Ailsa operated by Ensign in use in Romford back in the eighties and you certainly knew it was about by the noise even if you couldn't see it.

[alastairq]

29 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Turbochargers are better for longer distances but not on urban bus work with its stop/start nature

EYMS discovered that after they purchased a gaggle of Bristol VRs with Leyland turbo engines.

I recall being amongst the  sad few drivers detailed to go fetch them from darn sarf [Nottingham?]....to be bowling along at close to 70 mph on the motorway was unheard of with anything with a Bristol badge on it [and an upstairs]....when used to the plodding, bangs-at-every-lamppost, Gardner engined beasts.

However, pretty soon they were proven to be quite gutless on urban stage carriage ? I think some ended up at Hornsea depot?  They did need a good fast run to liven things up. Got the odd one or two at Driffield, for school runs too.

 

It was Bristol VRs that did for my knees in the end...being a long legged driver, knees constantly rammed hard up against the cast steel [iron?] control stalks under the wheel....year after year after year....in the cold...
Limpians, though somewhat gutless [ poor gear ratios I suspect?] were  a world away from VRs in the cab heat department....even if they required forward planning of the diary & calendar sort, to overtake a bicycle on the Hull- Scarborough run, north of Bridlington. trouble was, they were ''all in'' at just over 30 mph, top gear.....try overtaking  a bicycle in top gear.....with loads of oncoming holiday traffic?  A good service 121 driver knew exactly where every little dip in the road was located....needed to more rapidly increase speed from 30 mph in top gear........

Still, once the speed was built up, they were good for 50 mph on the flat.....a darned sight better than an old Fleetline? [Cold starting a Fleetline in Brid bus station, knocking down the de-compressors until 2 or 3 were left, then dropping the cylinders back in one by one once it was chuffin'?]

Weird array of gearboxes though.....semis, autos, you name it,   those Limpians?

 

{Mind, EYMS Panther Cub saloons were on the cards for being the most gutless of the gutless?  Took forever to get to White Cross on the 21 service out of Driff...]

[PatB]

3 hours ago, 37114 said:

That was an ex Strathclyde Aisla  MGE185P in the Black Prince case, full explanation in the link below. Dreadful looking bus and it had structural issues which led the front of the bus to droop down as well.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nedbasher/6583137113/in/photolist-91xwEH-2iMaqwj-wPZ7yJ-dhBu2D-onpC5R-b8qwbV-2jD7rvu-nMWRgr-b2Jij2-dhizNo-boU6yV-dAosKd-aSv4aF-aXkhYa-nMWRf4-bnCcB6-2dK4VE5-e5t3hU-jSY8cc-bfg7Jn

 

You sure it didn't just get built like that after someone creased a blueprint when putting it through the copy machine? 

[Johann Marsbar]

We had a Tayside Ailsa on loan for evaluation purposes back in 1980.....

 

 

One had already been tried out around 1975 when the type was new, but needless to say, no orders were forthcoming after either visit.....

 

[RANGERS]

15 minutes ago, Johann Marsbar said:

We had a Tayside Ailsa on loan for evaluation purposes back in 1980.....

 

 

One had already been tried out around 1975 when the type was new, but needless to say, no orders were forthcoming after either visit.....

 

Pity the poor soul who had to drive it from Dundee to Ipswich...and then back again.

 

The Ailsa wasn't a bad idea but the quirky engineering that went into the design and construction of the chassis never really worked, certainly not when combined with the traditional body building techniques. The spinal chassis arrangement wasn't strong enough to support the structure and by the time the effects not providing additional peripheral support to maintain the structural rigidity was realised, the world had moved on and so had Volvo.

 

The Ailsa successor, the B10M based Citybus was in many ways too good from an engineering perspective but had the problem of being well over 14' in height which probably led them to look at the potential that the Olympian had. With Leyland in the hands of an MBO ownership and potentially vulnerable to takeover by someone who could use the Olympian to gain ground in the resurging city bus market, it was probably a no brainer for Volvo to get in first. The rest is history.

[leopardml2341]

SYPTE originally trialled an Irish (CIE iirc) Ailsa; reg number 621 ZO.

 

It was used on my local routes 139/40/1/2 in Rotherham for a while in 1975. Its 'mucky orange' livery made it well and truly invisible in the then prevalent sodium street lighting, add a bit o' fog and the only way you knew it was coming was engine noise.

[Johann Marsbar]

8 minutes ago, RANGERS said:

Pity the poor soul who had to drive it from Dundee to Ipswich...and then back again.

 

The Ailsa wasn't a bad idea but the quirky engineering that went into the design and construction of the chassis never really worked, certainly not when combined with the traditional body building techniques. The spinal chassis arrangement wasn't strong enough to support the structure and by the time the effects not providing additional peripheral support to maintain the structural rigidity was realised, the world had moved on and so had Volvo.

 

The Ailsa successor, the B10M based Citybus was in many ways too good from an engineering perspective but had the problem of being well over 14' in height which probably led them to look at the potential that the Olympian had. With Leyland in the hands of an MBO ownership and potentially vulnerable to takeover by someone who could use the Olympian to gain ground in the resurging city bus market, it was probably a no brainer for Volvo to get in first. The rest is history.

 

It actually got dragged along to the 1980 Showbus event at Thorpe Park while it was down here, along with IBT Regent V 63 and Atlantean 21 in Horse Tramway Centenary livery.

I was on the trip, though it was another 3 years before I started work at IBT, and took this photo from the back platform of 63 as we travelled home along the Embankment in the evening...

 

[John M Upton]

The worst buses I ever travelled in were a pair of very square Locomotors bodied Ford’s (probably R1014s I think) that West Sussex County Council purchased early 1980’s for school work, they were dreadful and the pair of Wadham Stringer Vanguard bodied examples on the same chassis were little better.

 

The older dark blue thing thing that looked like it was bought second hand from the prison service was actually more comfortable....

 

Pictures of these various horrors are somewhat scarce though.

 

They were later replaced by a selection of half decent Plaxton bodied coaches ex Skills of Manchester and then an eclectic selection of rather fun if somewhat ancient ECW bodied Bristol REs.

 

Again, photos of these extremely scarce so if anyone has some, I would like to see them.