Fiat Chrysler being naughty?

[jjb1970]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40021903

 

This one follows the Daimler news a few days ago.

[PatB]

This is hilarious.

 

Not so very long ago, when I was still an engineer, I worked for a while in Australia's Federal Department of Transport. A major part of my role was to schedule audit visits to manufacturers selling vehicles into the Australian market. The purpose of the audits was to try to ensure that the vehicles being manufactured for Oz were a) compliant with Australian requirements and b) would continue to be compliant with Australian requirements over the course of the production run.

 

I, in accordance with my section's policy, regularly scheduled visits to the major European, US and Japanese manufacturers, as well as quite a few to emerging players like China and India.

 

Pressure frequently came from "higher up" to skip Europe, the US and Japan and do more in China and India because "the Europeans/Americans/Japanese are mature manufacturers and know what they're doing. They'll do the right thing".

 

Since I left we've had:

Japanese airbags with added shrapnel

VW emissions fraud

Fiat Chrysler emissions fraud

 

All of which are absolutely huge compliance headaches worldwide and really make a few loose bolts on an obscure Chinese ute that nobody actually buys look like very small potatoes in comparison.

[Horsetan]

.... huge compliance headaches worldwide and really make a few loose bolts on an obscure Chinese ute that nobody actually buys.....

 

A few Chinese cars have made it into the UK - twenty to be precise. The all-electric BYD E6 was experimentally built in RHD for an electric taxi firm, but the deal fell through. However, the cars that did make it here gained certification for use in the UK, and I've seen the grand total of, er, two being used as private hire minicabs.

 

Autocar tested one a while ago, and thought it was rubbish.

[Jol Wilkinson]

 

Not so very long ago, when I was still an engineer, I worked for a while in Australia's Federal Department of Transport. A major part of my role was to schedule audit visits to manufacturers selling vehicles into the Australian market. The purpose of the audits was to try to ensure that the vehicles being manufactured for Oz were a) compliant with Australian requirements and b) would continue to be compliant with Australian requirements over the course of the production run.

 

I, in accordance with my section's policy, regularly scheduled visits to the major European, US and Japanese manufacturers, as well as quite a few to emerging players like China and India.

 

 

Which probably explains why, when visiting a major London dealership for the the European manufacturer I worked for, I was invited to cast my eye over the under bonnet installation on an Australian spec car they had in the workshop. It resembled nothing like anything we were used to in the UK, with what seemed like a myriad of relays and other odd bits clicking away to control the engine systems. Normal UK/European spec had Bosch FI but we didn't know what this was!

 

Being London, they got all sorts of odd spec. vehicles from various Embassies and "dodgy" importers dumped on them if they had a problem.

[Horsetan]

Which probably explains why, when visiting a major London dealership for the the European manufacturer I worked for, I was invited to cast my eye over the under bonnet installation on an Australian spec car they had in the workshop. It resembled nothing like anything we were used to in the UK, with what seemed like a myriad of relays and other odd bits clicking away to control the engine systems. Normal UK/European spec had Bosch FI but we didn't know what this was!

 

A small number of Holden / HSV saloons were brought into the UK in the mid to late 1990s and touted as a rival to the then all-conquering BMW E39 M5. There weren't many, and the only service agent I knew of that would deal with them was Linden Specialist Vehicles in Wellingborough.

[wombatofludham]

A few Chinese cars have made it into the UK - twenty to be precise. The all-electric BYD E6 was experimentally built in RHD for an electric taxi firm, but the deal fell through. However, the cars that did make it here gained certification for use in the UK, and I've seen the grand total of, er, two being used as private hire minicabs.

 

Autocar tested one a while ago, and thought it was rubbish.

 

Depends how you define "car" but I've definitely seen the Chinese built Great Wall "Steed" (called, more amusingly, the "Wingle" elsewhere) pick-up locally.  Quite popular with local hill dwellers as they are cheap, has proper 4wd and they have a dealer up in Pwllheli. which given Dacia (the nearest budget 4wd competitor) are now closing the local dealership, making the nearest one Shrewsbury, is positively local.  Plus as a crew cab you've got room for Sion and Sian Bach on the school run. 

 

I think I prefer the name "Wingle" than the Avengers tribute.

[BG John]

£18,000? I'm used to buying Chinese stuff on eBay for a couple of quid!!!!!

[Horsetan]

£18,000? I'm used to buying Chinese stuff on eBay for a couple of quid!!!!!

 

It probably cost a couple of quid to make. If they are managing to sell it here, that at least indicates they managed to pass it through the EuroNCAP crash tests. Some of the test results for Chinese cars only a few years ago were eye-openers, so hopefully they have improved since then.

 

I looked at the sales blurb for the Great Wall 4x4 and kept thinking it looked like a Nissan.

 

I wonder if Landwind will dare to sell their Evoque-alike "X7" here....?

[BG John]

I looked at the sales blurb for the Great Wall 4x4 and kept thinking it looked like a Nissan.

All modern cars look the same to me anyway!

[APOLLO]

 

Brit15

[brianusa]

A few Chinese cars have made it into the UK - twenty to be precise. The all-electric BYD E6 was experimentally built in RHD for an electric taxi firm, but the deal fell through. However, the cars that did make it here gained certification for use in the UK, and I've seen the grand total of, er, two being used as private hire minicabs.

 

Autocar tested one a while ago, and thought it was rubbish.

 

They probably said the same thing about early Japanese imports!

 

Brian.

[jjb1970]

There has been a lot of hypocrisy around some of these scandals. If a Chinese manufacturer had been caught committing deliberate fraud to get its engines through emissions test by using an illegal defeat device we would have heard a crescendo of voices assuring us that it was so typical of China, never trust a Chinese manufacturer, get this junk out of Europe etc. However, since it was VW that got caught committing fraud and ignoring emissions regulations (and by extension ignoring public health) there's been barely a shrug of the shoulders and a "what's the big deal" type response on this side of the pond.

The Fiat Chrysler violation seems to be a dispute over whether their system was an allowable auxiliary control device or a defeat device. There is often a fine line between the two, if Fiat Chrysler have stretched the elastic beyond breaking point then they should pay the penalty but it does not seem to be the same outright fraud as committed by VW. Daimler are also in trouble.

There is a lesson in all of this - if you're going to ignore environmental regulations, don't do it in the USA. Not just for car emissions, compare the serious fines and sanctions applied to marine pollution incidents in the US with the slap on the wrist equivalent violations recieve over here. The European response to the emissions violations has been a joke really, it wouldn't be so bad if Europe didn't preach to the rest of the world about saving the world (unless the future of a multi-billion Euro industry in Germany is at stake).

They probably said the same thing about early Japanese imports!

Brian.

 

It wasn't that long ago that people said the same about Korean cars.

[Phil Bullock]

And 60 years ago the first Japanese motorbikes

 

Phil

[bertiedog]

And in the news...Lotus sold today to Chinese maker of the London Taxis, Geely.

 

On fake testing, look at Harley Davidson, who got the bikes through the US noise tests by making sure all the measurements were taken on the side opposite the air intake and exhaust.........after finding out the tests were not needed on both sides. Took years for the US DOT to work out why they passed so easily.............

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

And 60 years ago the first Japanese motorbikes

 

Phil

You mean the ones dismissed by BSA as faked up for the catalogue, and besides the Japanese do not have large machining units to handle four cylinders.( and neither did BSA!). Despite pleas from the designers, the board simply dismissed the chances of Honda actually making any, only to be told they were on sale already in the States........................

[Judge Dread]

You mean the ones dismissed by BSA as faked up for the catalogue, and besides the Japanese do not have large machining units to handle four cylinders.( and neither did BSA!). Despite pleas from the designers, the board simply dismissed the chances of Honda actually making any, only to be told they were on sale already in the States........................

I think the reference maybe to their entries into the I.O.M. T.T. races way back in the 50's or thereabouts, where none of their machines completed the races entered.  The riders and mechanics etc did, however, take a great number of photos of other entrants bikes and the following  year was a completely different story.

I would give the floor to our resident islander, one NHN, for a better story.

I will say, however, that should you find yourself in the science museum in London, there is a display of radial  aircraft engines from several countries,  the UK, USA, Germany and Japan. You don't have to look very closely to see which one was better made. It is most certainly Japanese one! 

[jjb1970]

Japan produced some extremely high performance radial piston engines in WW2 but strangely they struggled to build liquid cooled in-line engines. Some of their aircraft designs like the N1K,Ki84 & Ki100 were outstanding and only really let down by poor quality materials and interrupted production as a result of the USN blockade and USAAF bombing. The Ki46 was a lovely looking machine.

[PatB]

The Great Wall utes actually sold quite well over here, although numbers dropped off a bit a couple of years back. Their SUVs seem to be getting quite common here too and their "upmarket" Haval badge has seen a major sales push (well, they seem to have spent quite a bit on TV ads). However other Chinese manufacturers seem to do less well.Foton, for example, don't seem to have great sales.

Chinese light trucks are getting more numerous and their coaches are very common however. I seem to see quite a lot of LDV vans around these days, although the acid test might be if I continue to see them in a couple of years time .

 

Edit: One of  the reasons for Great Wall's success and others' relative failure is, I think, to do with their import arrangements. Great Wall have gone the whole hog and established an importer, a dealership network and what appears to be proper after-sales and spares back up. IOW you can buy one and be reasonably confident that, at least in the medium term, you will be able to get it serviced and fixed without too much hassle. Given that resale values tend to be low, this is an important consideration because these are vehicles which it makes economic sense to keep long term (because you'll effectively get nothing back anyway, you might as well run it 'til it stops, basically).

 

A number of other makes have been imported in small numbers by a single Perth dealer who does that sort of thing. When there are only a dozen or two of a particular model in the country, what is spares back up going to be like? How long will it take to honour warranty claims? If you live outside Perth, where will you go to get it serviced/fixed or get spares? How long will spares be available at all? Cheap though some of these vehicles might be, I suspect that their mediocrity combined with these long term uncertainties put an awful lot of potential buyers off.

 

All that said, I quite fancy a Mahindra .

[PatB]

But veering back on topic, I wonder if any other emissions cheating is going to come to light. Given that modern vehicles in particular classes have roughly comparable performance and given that some manufacturers appear willing to fiddle the system, presumably to gain a performance edge for their products (it's notable that there are now stories of VW owners being unhappy with their cars after they've been fixed), does this imply that a majority of manufacturers might be up to something similar but simply haven't been caught? I await developments with interest.

[APOLLO]

I recently bought a new (to me) 8 year old 1.6 8 valve petrol Seat Leon. I'm very pleased with it in general. Looking under the bonnet is a strange electric turbo fan, plumbing of which seems to go to the outlet manifold. It runs for a couple of seconds only when starting the engine. A bit of googling says it's a "secondary air injection pump" and it's purpose is "to warm up the cat and control emissions on start up". It's a 100% VW engine.

 

Another fiddle surely ?

 

Brit15

[BG John]

A bit of googling says it's a "secondary air injection pump" and it's purpose is "to warm up the cat and control emissions on start up".

It seems a bit heartless making your cat travel separately from you. My dog travels with me inside my van .

[Jol Wilkinson]

I recently bought a new (to me) 8 year old 1.6 8 valve petrol Seat Leon. I'm very pleased with it in general. Looking under the bonnet is a strange electric turbo fan, plumbing of which seems to go to the outlet manifold. It runs for a couple of seconds only when starting the engine. A bit of googling says it's a "secondary air injection pump" and it's purpose is "to warm up the cat and control emissions on start up". It's a 100% VW engine.

 

Another fiddle surely ?

 

Brit15

If it is that obvious, then how can it be a fiddle? It's just part of the emission control system, presumably operating when a cold engine needs a richer fuel mixture to run smoothly.

 

What VW did in the US of A was to incorporate software that provided different performance under specific conditions and which gave an inaccurate set of figures to comply with the regulations under test conditions only.

 

Other manufacturers may not have had to do this if their vehicles complied. Some European manufacturers who don't sell in the States were investigated but found to comply with European regulations. Despite this, there seems to be a belief that all car manufacturers are up to no good.

[Jol Wilkinson]

It seems a bit heartless making your cat travel separately from you. My dog travels with me inside my van .

In my experience it is usually dogs that have the emission problems, not cats.

[rockershovel]

Given the appalling atmospheric conditions in most Chinese cities, I find it difficult to believe that the Chinese trouble about atmospheric pollution unles they absolutely have to.

 

The Chinese, however, worked out long ago that subcontracting manufacture, gives you access to other peoples' R&D, because if you don't know how to make it, you CAN'T make it; an important consideration, in a country where intellectual property rights are totally disregarded, and equal opportunity and level playing fields non-existent.

 

They also understand that if you make something cheap enough, it will sell; and that for most purposes, last year's design, or the year before that, are quite sufficient.

 

Didn't they attempt to introduce a cheap-and-nasty small car under the MG badge, a while ago?

[Zomboid]

Didn't they attempt to introduce a cheap-and-nasty small car under the MG badge, a while ago?

If driving cheap junk is your thing, they'll sell you an MG3 or an MG GS. I think they've stopped trying to sell the MG6 here now, after not selling very many.