844fan Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 Hey all, I got a simple question and I think I have the answer but I want to be positive on the matter. If I remember the average hight off the ground to the buffer is around 3 feet. How far off can this deviate as I have seen locomotives with buffers set just a small amount lower than wagons and coaches but the buffers are always pressed against each other and never too low. Also is this a standard for the UK or are most countries in Europe keeping to this standard too as long as they have chain or screw link couplings? I know loading gauges would be the main problem but there are some continental locos running in the UK right now (or at least once they get restored properly) But yeah thats been bugging me for a bit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 Buffer heights are set when the wagons are empty. When loaded the springs compress and the height reduces. The apparent height when compared to the next vehicle can be effected by dipped rail joints etc. If you can, try and watch a train of 2 axle wagons moving over jointed track in Sidings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 Posted before to show there is an exception to most rules. Mike Wiltshire 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clecklewyke Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 I remember a similar discussion in the Scalefour Soc Forum. Bill Bedford stated that there could be considerable variation in buffer heights. Someone then pointed that Bill had a buffer height gauge in his etchings range. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 Nominal buffer height is 3'6", with a 3" tolerance for loaded wagons. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 (edited) Posted before to show there is an exception to most rules. 08775 buffer heights a.jpg08775 buffer heights b.jpg Mike Wiltshire Something is not right there - the 08 is dipping towards the nose. It looks like the springs to the front are compressed and the rear lightly loaded. The coupling rods are not parallel to the footplate. Either there is a very severe track twist or the track has spread and the far side front wheel is on the dirt... It also looks like it may have suffered a slipped crank, the leading balance weight on the wheel does not line up with the others. This photo which must have been taken at a similar time shows them all aligned: https://www.flickr.com/photos/37190-dalzell/14757204482/in/photostream/ A photo showing the other side could be very interesting! Edited May 27, 2017 by Titan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 Seen on the inside of one of the workshops at Eastleigh. Jon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 Something is not right there - the 08 is dipping towards the nose. It looks like the springs to the front are compressed and the rear lightly loaded. The coupling rods are not parallel to the footplate. Either there is a very severe track twist or the track has spread and the far side front wheel is on the dirt... It also looks like it may have suffered a slipped crank, the leading balance weight on the wheel does not line up with the others. This photo which must have been taken at a similar time shows them all aligned: https://www.flickr.com/photos/37190-dalzell/14757204482/in/photostream/ A photo showing the other side could be very interesting! They are a short wheelbase loco, and like all such are very inclined to pitch. A photo taken a few seconds later would probably show the reverse situation: cab end low, radiator end high. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
844fan Posted May 27, 2017 Author Share Posted May 27, 2017 Nominal buffer height is 3'6", with a 3" tolerance for loaded wagons. That is what I thought. But was this a standard for Europe as well as Britain? I mean would the buffers of a Norwegian tank engine like this http://www.steamlocomotive.info/locomotives/norway257.jpg be at a similar height? I think yes but but I want to be positive. Seen on the inside of one of the workshops at Eastleigh. bufferheight001.jpg Jon Hmm interesting. They are a short wheelbase loco, and like all such are very inclined to pitch. A photo taken a few seconds later would probably show the reverse situation: cab end low, radiator end high. Depending on what way it was heading I suspect as well. Tank engines and Shunter diesels do seem to bounce alot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 That is what I thought. But was this a standard for Europe as well as Britain? I mean would the buffers of a Norwegian tank engine like this http://www.steamlocomotive.info/locomotives/norway257.jpg be at a similar height? I think yes but but I want to be positive. I don't know about Norwegian stock, but the buffer height on Swedish Railways is 1040 mm, and German, 1025mm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium JDW Posted May 27, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 27, 2017 I did think that the 08 looked a bit wonky, but thought it was just the angle of the photo. I suspect it's something a bit more than bouncing on uneven track, the cab end looks very high, way more than any bounce should cause! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken.W Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 Depending on what way it was heading I suspect as well. Tank engines and Shunter diesels do seem to bounce alot. So does that track - a very pronounced dip under the front end of loco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free At Last Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 It looks like the rear two body fixing screws may have dropped out. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
844fan Posted May 28, 2017 Author Share Posted May 28, 2017 I don't know about Norwegian stock, but the buffer height on Swedish Railways is 1040 mm, and German, 1025mm. I did the conversion and both are roughly 40 inches so I'd say just within the Tolerance of being compatible with British. Main reason I ask about Norway is I am quite fond of the two locos of the 2a class. Number 16 and one that I think is still running excursions named Caroline. I call No. 16 Emmett as a personal nickname but thats nither here nor there. Note will add a link to the locos in question in a moment. On a mobile and switching tabs durring any reply is dangerous in that it as the clown would say "It go poof!" I did think that the 08 looked a bit wonky, but thought it was just the angle of the photo. I suspect it's something a bit more than bouncing on uneven track, the cab end looks very high, way more than any bounce should cause! I'm no expert on Gronks so it could be a spring issue or bad track. Funnily makes me think of the more pronounced stopping aninmation from the first few CG Thomas seasons. So does that track - a very pronounced dip under the front end of loco Um I think I see a even worse problem. Look at the front brake linkage is it me or is it snaped off it's holding? It looks like the rear two body fixing screws may have dropped out. I think that poor Gronk is in some serious trouble. As I said above I think I see broken brake linkage and I think some said the fron wheel is misaligned. like the front end isn't even in working order if thats true. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted May 28, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 28, 2017 I'm no expert on Gronks so it could be a spring issue or bad track. Funnily makes me think of the more pronounced stopping aninmation from the first few CG Thomas seasons. Um I think I see a even worse problem. Look at the front brake linkage is it me or is it snaped off it's holding? I think that poor Gronk is in some serious trouble. As I said above I think I see broken brake linkage and I think some said the fron wheel is misaligned. like the front end isn't even in working order if thats true. There is a pronounced dip in the track under the front wheel, possibly a void or wet spot The front brake link rod on a gronk has a pronounced slope down. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66035-class-08-shunter-prototype-photos/page-1&do=findComment&comment=894933. This is another at Bury Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted May 28, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 28, 2017 Are these measurements to the centreline of the buffer? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 Are these measurements to the centreline of the buffer? Yes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted May 28, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 28, 2017 RSSB standard quotes 1054mm to centreline for Instanter and Buckeye fitted UK stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian keane Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 (edited) I recall sharp stuart no. 995 of 1857 had buffers 3' 3" above rail level rather than the standard 3' 6" Edited May 28, 2017 by Killian keane 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 I have drawings of Furness locos from sharp Stewart the buffers ge higher over time the 0-4-0 (no.20) had 3ft high buffers, by 1870 the height was 3ft 3 and by 1899 the buffer height was 3ft5. When the rebuilding No.20 they had to raise the buffer height by 5 inches to allow it to run with standard stock. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
844fan Posted May 28, 2017 Author Share Posted May 28, 2017 RSSB standard quotes 1054mm to centreline for Instanter and Buckeye fitted UK stock. Well with Buckeye/knuckles buffers are kind of superfluous since the whole point is to not have any slack. At least thats what I know about them I have seen locomotives with both a Screw link and Buckeye set ups that makes the knuckle look loose. I recall sharp stuart no. 995 of 1857 had buffers 3' 3" above rail level rather than the standard 3' 6" A bit closer to the German setup. I have drawings of Furness locos from sharp Stewart the buffers ge higher over time the 0-4-0 (no.20) had 3ft high buffers, by 1870 the height was 3ft 3 and by 1899 the buffer height was 3ft5. When the rebuilding No.20 they had to raise the buffer height by 5 inches to allow it to run with standard stock. Marc I would have guessed this would be the case. The only loco I know of who never got raised buffers was Gazelle and that was due to her size and useing her own wagons/coach stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 (edited) Well with Buckeye/knuckles buffers are kind of superfluous since the whole point is to not have any slack. At least thats what I know about them I have seen locomotives with both a Screw link and Buckeye set ups that makes the knuckle look loose. At a rough guess the standard pertains to drop-head Buckeyes as used mainly on coaching stock (where upon the buffers are retracted back when the Buckeye is raised). If the Buckeye is fixed, then buffers would not be fittedto the stock at all. (Needless to say there's bound to be exceptions to all this...) Edited May 29, 2017 by frobisher Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Hey all,Also is this a standard for the UK or are most countries in Europe keeping to this standard too as long as they have chain or screw link couplings? None of the replies so far seem to have mentioned the rest of Europe, but yes they are the same, within the tolerances others have mentioned. Hence all the ferry wagons etc. could operate all over Europe and the UK. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 You can find diagrams giving the heights, spacing etc. in Appendix B of this document: https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/GMRC2509%20Iss%201.pdf Regards 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted May 29, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 29, 2017 None of the replies so far seem to have mentioned the rest of Europe, but yes they are the same, within the tolerances others have mentioned. Hence all the ferry wagons etc. could operate all over Europe and the UK. Regards Why would the rest of Europe be discussed? This is the UK Prototype section. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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