Midland Compound livery details

[ejstubbs]

My understanding up to now has been that when the Midland Compounds passed into the LMS fleet, the following changes were made to the livery:

• MR crest taken off rear splashers and replaced with loco number (where it looks rather cramped IMO);
• Loco number on tender replaced with "LMS" lettering.

At some later date, the LMS started to repaint them in unlined black, but retaining the location of the number & lettering.

 

The above was based on a, perhaps naive, belief that what the rtr manufacturers offer is reasonably accurate.

 

I have, however, noticed that this photo on the Wiki page about the Compounds appears to show 1115 with its number on its tender, Midland-style, and the LMS crest on the splasher. It's not easy to be 100% sure from a monochrome image but it looks like the loco is painted crimson. Was this common, or at all long-lived? At least one modeller seems to have turned one example out in that variation of the livery:

 

 

As a secondary question: when did the "Crimson Ramblers" generally cease to be crimson?

[DCB]

Fowler Locomotives by Brian Haresnape,   SBN 7110 0374 2     has a pic of 1108 (Built Derby 1925) in Crimson with coat of arms on the cab side coupled to the tender off 1102 (also Derby 1925) with number on the tender side.

He also states WW2 ended the red livery but some retained red livery into BR days and 40934 was probably the last in red into late 1951.

[asmay2002]

My understanding up to now has been that when the Midland Compounds passed into the LMS fleet, the following changes were made to the livery:

• MR crest taken off rear splashers and replaced with loco number (where it looks rather cramped IMO);
• Loco number on tender replaced with "LMS" lettering.

Your understanding is wrong.  The 1923-1928 LMS livery used the crest on the cabside and the number on the tender just as the Midland had done (except it was the LMS crest). This applied to all red locos in this period. Black locos also had the number on the tender and a small panel with LMS in it on the cabside. Numbers were moved to the cabside after 1928.  Plain black for all locos came in during WW2 (1940) but some compounds managed to make it right through without a repaint from crimson (930, 1059, 1081). 934 even managed to get renumbered 40934 whilst still red and then went straight to BR black in 1951.

[ejstubbs]

Thank you both for this information.

 

Funny that you should mention Haresnape, David: I was contemplating another of his books to help with exactly this question - but I though I'd run it past the RMWeb collective first.  And, as so often, the answer was forthcoming.

[brianusa]

It was almost criminal for BR to paint such a loco in black. But they did it on other unlikely locos also, all no doubt in the name of economy with no thought to the reason for the class and its workings. Other locos such as the Southern T9s suffered the same fate.

 

Brian.

[Steamport Southport]

It was almost criminal for BR to paint such a loco in black. But they did it on other unlikely locos also, all no doubt in the name of economy with no thought to the reason for the class and its workings. Other locos such as the Southern T9s suffered the same fate.

 

Brian.

 

The best livery for any engine was lined black. Just ask Riddles.

 

 

Even City Of Truro looked better. But why they would paint inferior locomotives in a decent livery is beyond my understanding.....

 

 

 

Jason

[ejstubbs]

The 1923-1928 LMS livery used the crest on the cabside and the number on the tender just as the Midland had done (except it was the LMS crest). This applied to all red locos in this period... Numbers were moved to the cabside after 1928.

 

DId any locos retain the old form of the livery after 1928, and if so then how long for?  If a few managed to stay crimson until after the war, that suggests that some locos took a fair while to get back to the paintshop.  Although I suppose that simply moving the number and putting the LMS logo on the tender could have been done without a full repaint.

 

Looks like I may need to get a decent book on the subject, anyway.

[Poor Old Bruce]

..... why they would paint inferior locomotives in a decent livery is beyond my understanding.....

 

Always remember that the other person is entitled to their stupid opinion.     (only joking!)

 

DId any locos retain the old form of the livery after 1928, and if so then how long for?  If a few managed to stay crimson until after the war, that suggests that some locos took a fair while to get back to the paintshop.  Although I suppose that simply moving the number and putting the LMS logo on the tender could have been done without a full repaint.

 

Looks like I may need to get a decent book on the subject, anyway.

 

They would have retained the old livery for a few years until repainting was due/necessary. Those which retained LMS red after WW2 would, of course, had some version of the post 1928 livery (there was no "LMS logo" applied to tenders btw, just the letters 'LMS'). Some BR locos (notably 70004) still had the pre 1956 crests in 1963 and possibly later.

 

As an aside, I presume you are aware that the tender with Bachmann's 1000 represents the one it is preserved with and is not a 'typical' Deeley tender. The preserved tender is actually off one of the 1914 build of Somerset and Dorset 2-8-0s with a different front end cut-out which was a throw-back to their original of tender cab days.

[coachmann]

Best reference books by far on LMS livery matters with original research were produced by David Jenkinson & Bob Essery. The volume covering the MR Compounds and in fact all absorbed pre-group classes of the Midland Division is, 'An Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives Volume 4 by B.Essery & D.Jenkinson (Silver Link Publishing 1987). 

 

The LMS Compounds were a minefield of detail and Tenders, so care is needed if renumbering a model. I can recommend 'LMS Locomotive Prolfiles No.13 - The Standard Compounds' (Wild Swan Publications 2010)

[Il Grifone]

The best livery for any engine was lined black. Just ask Riddles.

 

 

Even City Of Truro looked better. But why they would paint inferior locomotives in a decent livery is beyond my understanding.....

 

 

 

Jason

 

By 'inferior', you mean painting other railways' locomotives in GWR green I assume?  

 

It should be remembered that when GWR was scrapping its 4-4-0s, other railways still were building them. (The 'Dukedogs' were a rebuild and don't count.)

 

The Southern Region seemed particularly fond of lined black, which is strange since even they knew the proper colour for an engine is green.

 

I understand that a locomotive had to have a power rating of at least 6P to qualify for green. This was relaxed later on, enabling lots of engines to wear the proper colour.  

 

Since the amalgamation of the LMS resulted in a virtual Midland takeover, it is logical that crimson should have survived a long time. (The same thing happened in 1948.)

[ejstubbs]

there was no "LMS logo" applied to tenders btw, just the letters 'LMS'

 

Ahem: "A wordmark, word mark or logotype is usually a distinct text-only typographic treatment of the name of a company, institution, or product name used for purposes of identification and branding. ...  The wordmark is one of several different types of logos".

 

Reference

 

As an aside, I presume you are aware that the tender with Bachmann's 1000 represents the one it is preserved with and is not a 'typical' Deeley tender. The preserved tender is actually off one of the 1914 build of Somerset and Dorset 2-8-0s with a different front end cut-out which was a throw-back to their original of tender cab days.

 

I knew that Bachmann's 1000 is "as preserved" and not original, but I don't know a lot about the other details.  I shall be investing in a printed work of reference before long!

[The Johnster]

Oh dear, it's descending into another livery debate.  FWIWIMHO LNWR lined black looked pretty good on most locos it was applied to, and was better than plain black on an LMS compound.  It is an attractive and workmanlike livery, and suits older designs such as the compounds with large splashers and lining following the rear splasher off the cab sidesheets, as of course it did at one time on George the Fifths or Precursors.  It looked fine on ancient 0-4-4 tanks and T9s, and it also suited modern designs such as black 5s and the BR standards.

 

But this is only my opinion, and you are just as entitled to yours, whatever it is.

[Pete the Elaner]

Oh dear, it's descending into another livery debate.

Mostly tongue in cheek & taken in good spirit though.

[kevinlms]

Your understanding is wrong.  The 1923-1928 LMS livery used the crest on the cabside and the number on the tender just as the Midland had done (except it was the LMS crest). This applied to all red locos in this period. Black locos also had the number on the tender and a small panel with LMS in it on the cabside. Numbers were moved to the cabside after 1928. 

Yes, the above is correct. The question is why did the LMS in 1928 reverse the number and crest/letters LMS from loco to tender & vice versa?

 

In fact it was very logical. While railways such as the Midland had generally a tender for each loco requiring one. Other railways (notably the LNWR) had swapped tenders around and a loco could go out with any suitable tender. Also they had long realised, that a tender could go through works, much quicker than its loco. In doing so they had long come to the conclusion, that they didn't need as many tenders as locomotives!

 

In early LMS days that caused problems, as each tender had to have the loco number on it, so numbers needed to be changed on them. One idea tried, was a spare tender with a rack on for replaceable numbers. However this experiment seemed to be short lived.

 

So not surprising that they swapped the location of the numbers from tender to loco, with tenders just lettered LMS, thus not mattering.

[kevinlms]

By 'inferior', you mean painting other railways' locomotives in GWR green I assume?  

 

It should be remembered that when GWR was scrapping its 4-4-0s, other railways still were building them. (The 'Dukedogs' were a rebuild and don't count.)

 

The Southern Region seemed particularly fond of lined black, which is strange since even they knew the proper colour for an engine is green.

 

I understand that a locomotive had to have a power rating of at least 6P to qualify for green. This was relaxed later on, enabling lots of engines to wear the proper colour.  

 

Since the amalgamation of the LMS resulted in a virtual Midland takeover, it is logical that crimson should have survived a long time. (The same thing happened in 1948.)

Only 'ordinary' railways painted locos green. Almost all LMS constituents, had a colour scheme other than green, the main exception being the Highland Railway. Dominant colours being Black, Crimson Lake & Caledonian Blue.

[John_Miles]

Yes, the above is correct. The question is why did the LMS in 1928 reverse the number and crest/letters LMS from loco to tender & vice versa?

 

In fact it was very logical. While railways such as the Midland had generally a tender for each loco requiring one. Other railways (notably the LNWR) had swapped tenders around and a loco could go out with any suitable tender. Also they had long realised, that a tender could go through works, much quicker than its loco. In doing so they had long come to the conclusion, that they didn't need as many tenders as locomotives!

 

In early LMS days that caused problems, as each tender had to have the loco number on it, so numbers needed to be changed on them. One idea tried, was a spare tender with a rack on for replaceable numbers. However this experiment seemed to be short lived.

 

So not surprising that they swapped the location of the numbers from tender to loco, with tenders just lettered LMS, thus not mattering.

 

There are plenty of examples of Midland locos running with the wrong tender. I am a great fan of the Midland but putting the number on the tender is IMHO a daft idea.

[brianusa]

For whatever reason we all have our personal preferences, in this case loco liveries.  If it were up to me, engines would be in one of their pregrouping colours,  Midland red, Southern malachite, etc and GW, of course, green.  Feel free to choose your favourites!

 

Brian.

[Steamport Southport]

By 'inferior', you mean painting other railways' locomotives in GWR green I assume?  

 

It should be remembered that when GWR was scrapping its 4-4-0s, other railways still were building them. (The 'Dukedogs' were a rebuild and don't count.)

 

The Southern Region seemed particularly fond of lined black, which is strange since even they knew the proper colour for an engine is green.

 

I understand that a locomotive had to have a power rating of at least 6P to qualify for green. This was relaxed later on, enabling lots of engines to wear the proper colour.  

 

Since the amalgamation of the LMS resulted in a virtual Midland takeover, it is logical that crimson should have survived a long time. (The same thing happened in 1948.)

 

Didn't Hawksworth design a new 4-4-0 in the 1940s with Walschaerts valve gear to replace the Dukedogs? I remember seeing drawings somewhere.

 

 

Getting back to MR Compounds my two GEM versions are MR crimson and BR lined black respectively. I also ended up with two of those GBL copies. So I've ended up with four of them plus a 700 class to build. Yes my comments were tongue in cheek.

 

For information the RCTS book on Midland Compounds is well worth hunting for. You should be able to pick it up for about a fiver.

 

 

 

Jason

[wagonman]

There are plenty of examples of Midland locos running with the wrong tender. I am a great fan of the Midland but putting the number on the tender is IMHO a daft idea.

 

 

 

It was done to make the numbers more visible as the loco number was a key part of the Midland's traffic control system, so not daft...but expensive

[Il Grifone]

Didn't Hawksworth design a new 4-4-0 in the 1940s with Walschaerts valve gear to replace the Dukedogs? I remember seeing drawings somewhere.

 

 

omis

 

 

Jason

 

Possibly, but if so it never got off the drawing board. There was also supposed to be a Pacific. That didn't happen either. 

 

The Great Western did try red for locomotives, but obviously decided green was better. Blue didn't last long either when tried in BR days.

[kevinlms]

There are plenty of examples of Midland locos running with the wrong tender. I am a great fan of the Midland but putting the number on the tender is IMHO a daft idea.

Yes I know it wasn't unknown. In fact probably people took more photographs, because of the novelty value.

 

The reason the tender was used for the number, is that there was plenty of space to put large numbers on.

 

Edit to add

 

Wagonman beat me to it.

 

 

Also the smokebox number plate was very important to the Midland, as they mostly used square roundhouses, with a central turntable. Whereas the LNWR had mostly straight sheds, where those were of less value.

[Buhar]

It was done to make the numbers more visible as the loco number was a key part of the Midland's traffic control system, so not daft...but expensive

I thought the Midland's traffic control system amounted to sticking an extra loco on the front!

[The Johnster]

Didn't Hawksworth design a new 4-4-0 in the 1940s with Walschaerts valve gear to replace the Dukedogs? I remember seeing drawings somewhere.

 

 

Getting back to MR Compounds my two GEM versions are MR crimson and BR lined black respectively. I also ended up with two of those GBL copies. So I've ended up with four of them plus a 700 class to build. Yes my comments were tongue in cheek.

 

For information the RCTS book on Midland Compounds is well worth hunting for. You should be able to pick it up for about a fiver.

 

 

 

Jason

 

i don't think Hawkworth actually got as far as designing this locomotive beyond a general arrangement drawing, It was based on the no.2 boiler and cylinder block from the 5101 large prairies.  It was conceived as a lightweight loco to replace the Dean Goods still used on services such as the Mid Wales route, for which the Dukedogs were too heavy; in the event, the railway was nationalised and Ivatt 'Mickey Mouse' 2MT moguls were provided.

 

Hawksworth's 4-4-0 would probably have had the edge on these for speed, but one could hardly say that speed was the defining factor on the Mid Wales!