Most Unusual Diversion

[jim.snowdon]

Keith,

 

You have it. It's strange that the Google image still shows tracks leading down to the country end portal. The other end is completely devoid of track, and the trackbed now totally obstructed by a signalling equipment building.

 

Searching for <Camden Rat Hole> on Google brings up a lot of images from within the tunnel that would suggest that not only is the track is still in place but that it is also used as a cable tunnel, possibly for the DC feeder cables down towards Euston, as it runs underneath Camden substation.

 

Jim

Edited June 9, 2017 by jim.snowdon

[HillsideDepot]

Here's one scheduled for tomorrow:

 

Swansea (0359), Neath, Port Talbot Parkway, Bridgend, Cardiff Central, Newport, Bristol Parkway (0537-0545)
reverse

Bristol Temple Meads (0554-0601)
reverse

Bath Spa, Chippenham (0625-0632)
reverse

non-stop via Melksham, Trowbridge, Hawkeridge Jn, Heywood Road Jn, Berks & Hants to 
Reading (0737-0740), Paddington (0806)

 

It then works the 0900 from Paddington, via Reading, Berks & Hants, Bath Spa, Bristol Temple MEads, Patchway and "normal" route to Swansea arriving 1245

[anroar53]

Keith,

 

You have it. It's strange that the Google image still shows tracks leading down to the country end portal. The other end is completely devoid of track, and the trackbed now totally obstructed by a signalling equipment building.

 

Searching for <Camden Rat Hole> on Google brings up a lot of images from within the tunnel that would suggest that not only is the track is still in place but that it is also used as a cable tunnel, possibly for the DC feeder cables down towards Euston, as it runs underneath Camden substation.

 

Jim

Looking at the images on Google I was struck by the fact that there appears to be little if any trace of the former OHLE within the tunnel. (Apart from the approaches where there are patches in the brickwork where some structures were attached). Seems strange that great effort was taken to remove the 25kv equipment but leave the track. Interesting images as I've not been back to the place in 38 years. Some of the narrative is a bit out, especially saying it was rarely used by electric trains. It used to carry dozens of ECS and Light Engine movements every day, plus the odd passenger working in times of crisis.

sad demise of a once familiar route.

 

Andy.

[Rugd1022]

Why didn't they go straight from Cov  towards Brum?

 

Another regular diversion during the wiring of the WCML and popular with spotters was Rugby - Coventry - Stechford (where all trains were brought to a crawl before the bobby pulled off the signal) - Aston - Bescot - Bushbury- Stafford. Missing out both Brum & Wolves

There were always loads of spotters at Stechford due to the trains slowing right down.

 

Keith

 

Engineering work between Cov and Brum most likely.

[Welly]

Many years ago, I was on a Sheffield bound train from Lincoln which was diverted Holmes West Junction - Boultham Junction then reversed onwards via Pyewipe Junction due to a points failure!

 

I was going to mention the Caledonian being diverted via the GN & GE Joint Line via Lincoln and Spalding back in 2003 but having looked for a YouTube video of the working I saw, I realised that it has happened several times since! Here is the video of the 2003 working that I found: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy5kQGuFrng Here is one in 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ja5SsBqab4

[GordonC]

Looking at the images on Google I was struck by the fact that there appears to be little if any trace of the former OHLE within the tunnel. (Apart from the approaches where there are patches in the brickwork where some structures were attached). Seems strange that great effort was taken to remove the 25kv equipment but leave the track. Interesting images as I've not been back to the place in 38 years. Some of the narrative is a bit out, especially saying it was rarely used by electric trains. It used to carry dozens of ECS and Light Engine movements every day, plus the odd passenger working in times of crisis.

sad demise of a once familiar route.

 

Andy.

 

I wonder if there might be a reason for that, if the tunnel goes under a canal and is being abandoned, it may not be getting pumped out anymore - in that case having live OHLE in the vicinity of a flooded tunnel may not be a good idea!! Agreed its a sad demise of an interesting tunnel

[anroar53]

I wonder if there might be a reason for that, if the tunnel goes under a canal and is being abandoned, it may not be getting pumped out anymore - in that case having live OHLE in the vicinity of a flooded tunnel may not be a good idea!! Agreed its a sad demise of an interesting tunnel

I have seen many places where after abandonment the OHLE has been 'de-wired', but normally the supporting structures have been left. It's just in this case nothing seems to have been left behind other than the track.

 

Andy.

[melmerby]

Could it be that the OHLE had more scrap value and was easier to remove than the track?

 

Or maybe it was removed by the metal fairies?

 

Keith

[Zomboid]

Track and electrification are different parts of NR, and I imagine BR before it. The electrification maintainer might have seen value in recovering their asset that the track maintainer didn't.

[great central]

Track and electrification are different parts of NR, and I imagine BR before it. The electrification maintainer might have seen value in recovering their asset that the track maintainer didn't.

When the Woodhead route was closed according to various written accounts the overhead wires were virtually removed after the last train had passed or left live to deter metal thieves

[srihaggis]

Never really done that many rail miles, but the few diversions if I had to pick one as being strange, was the Derby-Skegness HST (Summer Saturday only, usually booked to call at Notts). Departed Derby, Called at Long Eaton as booked, then went south down the MML missing Nottingham in whole, through Melton Mowbray and into Peterborough, reversed to do a short high speed stint up the ECML then via another fangled route where I wasn't sure I was... think the journey took 3.5 hours total.

 

On the return, it did the same route back to Peterborough, back via Melton Mowbray, believe it called at Leicester, then reversed back north, went over Toton high level and into Toton. Then reversed and went back to Derby.

Edited June 13, 2017 by srihaggis

[great central]

Never really done that many rail miles, but the few diversions if I had to pick one as being strange, was the Derby-Skegness HST (Summer Saturday only, usually booked to call at Notts). Departed Derby, Called at Long Eaton as booked, then went south down the MML missing Nottingham in whole, through Melton Mowbray and into Peterborough, reversed to do a short high speed stint up the ECML then via another fangled route where I wasn't sure I was... think the journey took 3.5 hours total.

 

On the return, it did the same route back to Peterborough, back via Melton Mowbray, believe it called at Leicester, then reversed back north, went over Toton high level and into Toton. Then reversed and went back to Derby.

Presumably when Nottingham was shut for it's major upgrade?

[luckymucklebackit]

Sadly nowadays diversions are becoming a rare thing due to the specialized nature of the stock and more restrictive route knowledge as a result of Privatization, they just stick on buses.  Example being last week a unit brought down the knitting on the double track section between Glasgow Central and Shields Junction, there are two possible diversion routes, both requiring a reversal - Glasgow Central - Larkfield Junction (rev) - Terminus Junction - Shields Junction and Glasgow Central - Muirfield Junction (rev) - Terminus Junction - Shields Junction.  Neither were used and commuters on a very busy route were left to fend for themselves.

 

Jim

[GordonC]

Sadly nowadays diversions are becoming a rare thing due to the specialized nature of the stock and more restrictive route knowledge as a result of Privatization, they just stick on buses.  Example being last week a unit brought down the knitting on the double track section between Glasgow Central and Shields Junction, there are two possible diversion routes, both requiring a reversal - Glasgow Central - Larkfield Junction (rev) - Terminus Junction - Shields Junction and Glasgow Central - Muirfield Junction (rev) - Terminus Junction - Shields Junction.  Neither were used and commuters on a very busy route were left to fend for themselves.

 

Jim

 

thats unbelieveable neither were used, they're not exactly long diversions if they needed piloting by someone with route knowledge

[phil-b259]

thats unbelieveable neither were used, they're not exactly long diversions if they needed piloting by someone with route knowledge

 

It doesn't matter how long the diversion is, finding someone with the relevant route knowledge can be a real pain on todays business centred railway. BR had the luxury of being able to swap drivers around between different duties relatively easily - plus there were a lot more of them 'spare' at any one time than today. Remember passenger TOC drivers will only know the routes their company operates over, while FOC drivers are less in number than in BR days and are also unlikely to be available at the drop of a hat to Pilot other drivers over the diversion.

Edited June 15, 2017 by phil-b259

[GordonC]

It doesn't matter how long the diversion is, finding someone with the relevant route knowledge can be a real pain on todays business centred railway. BR had the luxury of being able to swap drivers around between different duties relatively easily - plus there were a lot more of them 'spare' at any one time than today. Remember passenger TOC drivers will only know the routes their company operates over, while FOC drivers are less in number than in BR days and are also unlikely to be available at the drop of a hat to Pilot other drivers over the diversion.

 

yes I realise that, but the diversions must be of a few hundred yards, not a vast distance out the way. So even for a lot of trains to be diverted a limited number of staff hopping on and off would be needed. For the inconvenience or difficultly to organise I'd have thought it would have been worthwhile to avoid a lot of cancelations.

[great central]

Maybe only a few hundred yards but if the crew don't sign the route they can't go, disciplinary outcome at the very least.

Regarding pilot working, if it's the same company, maybe easy enough but to hire in a driver and/or guard could cost several £000s. That's always assuming you can find the spares at short notice

[Zomboid]

I remember much gnashing of teeth at Woking one morning, when something went wrong and the guard came on the PA and said that the train would have to be cancelled because neither he nor the driver signed the route via Chertsey. I suspect the Byfleet curve would have been a particular problem.

Annoying, but I'd rather be annoyed than some of the consequences of a driver taking several hundred people somewhere that he doesn't know where he's going.

 

I think that day I went for a coffee in Woking town centre then gave up and went home...

[jim.snowdon]

I remember much gnashing of teeth at Woking one morning, when something went wrong and the guard came on the PA and said that the train would have to be cancelled because neither he nor the driver signed the route via Chertsey. I suspect the Byfleet curve would have been a particular problem.

Annoying, but I'd rather be annoyed than some of the consequences of a driver taking several hundred people somewhere that he doesn't know where he's going.

 

I think that day I went for a coffee in Woking town centre then gave up and went home...

I have heard it said that most of SWT's main line drivers no longer know the route via Chertsey, with the result that when anything goes pear-shaped east of Byfleet, the job stops. The unfortunate part of the franchise system is that if the cause is down to anything other than SWT's own trains, the accountants will then be looking ot see if the value of the delay minutes payable by NR to SWT exceeds the likely payout to passengers. If it does, it may be financially advantageous to terminate trains at Woking than incur the additional penalties that would arise from stuffing the Main Line services onto the already congested Windsor Lines.

 

Jim

[The Stationmaster]

I have heard it said that most of SWT's main line drivers no longer know the route via Chertsey, with the result that when anything goes pear-shaped east of Byfleet, the job stops. The unfortunate part of the franchise system is that if the cause is down to anything other than SWT's own trains, the accountants will then be looking ot see if the value of the delay minutes payable by NR to SWT exceeds the likely payout to passengers. If it does, it may be financially advantageous to terminate trains at Woking than incur the additional penalties that would arise from stuffing the Main Line services onto the already congested Windsor Lines.

 

Jim

 

It's down to more than that Jim as an important element is the cost of keeping the knowledge and that is usually the most likely driver when it comes to diversionary knowledge as it means either diversion of booked services in sufficient numbers to allow knowledge to be retained (which in itself could add cost) or additional Drivers (and Guards for non DOO trains) with some means other than booked trains of retaining the knowledge.  the worst situation you can finish up in is not having universal diversionary route knowledge which results in far greater complexity, and reduced reliability, when you actually need the diversions.

 

Overall I'm not surprised if some apparently straightforward diversionary routes are or have been dropped as the numbers tend to get rather frightening when you start adding them up.  It then becomes a simple(ish) business decision about the level of insurance you are prepared to pay because basically that is what it is

[ColinK]

The only way to keep crew knowledge of diversionary routes is probably to include it in the franchise specification.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 It then becomes a simple(ish) business decision about the level of insurance you are prepared to pay because basically that is what it is

 

Cash before customers.

A regrettable aspect of the modern world.

 

Mike.

[Zomboid]

Cash before customers.

A regrettable aspect of the modern world.

 

Mike.

Sort of. The customers would ultimately be paying for the insurance.

I think I'd probably opt for a bit of mayhem twice a year and £100 less for my season ticket. After all, if unplanned diversions are called for, there is still considerable disruption.

[The Stationmaster]

Cash before customers.

A regrettable aspect of the modern world.

 

Mike.

 

But quite an old modern world as it happens as this goes back to BR times.  The big differences between then and now are firstly that the costs are more readily identified - because they have to be (although we were effectively well down that route with sectorisation) - and that there has generally (but not totally) been a  considerable cutback in 'Spares' on traincrew rosters together with an overall shrinkage of numbers due to changes in Conditions of Service.

 

We were making choices like this in some ways or another way back in the 1980s and very definitely making them by the early 1990s.  The big difference that came along with sectorisation was that it made identification of costs considerably easier and hence decisions were better informed (or actually informed in financial terms which had not previously been the case),  

 

In the privatised era in my operating company I could cost this sort of thing down to very narrow limits and thus it was a simple choice when it came to diversionary knowledge - firstly are we prepared to bother with it at all and where we decided were prepared to bother the next decision was how we were going to do it (we used a mixture of regular different timetabled routes for some trains, sending crews out on Route Refreshers on some diversionary routes, and contracting with other operators to buy in Conductor Drivers for a number of what I decided were likely to be much rarer routes where we could readily have timetabled trains or couldn't afford to send out Route Refreshing trips as they offered no real return in flexibility.

 

The big difference between decisions I was making in 1989 (which effectively decided whether or not certain depots had or didn't have Route Knowledge and the decisions I was making 6 years later was that in 1995 I knew the exact costs of retaining diversionary knowledge by Route Refreshers or of buying that knowledge in.

[melmerby]

Some interesting insights on modern route knowledge coming through in this thread.

 

What happened in the "Good Old" BR days when you would get all sorts of weird excursions wandering around the network?

Trains would start in one region and visit one or more other regions, sometimes taking unusual routes between them.

Maybe less so after the end of steam. although I did go on a IC125 from New Street to York and back which went via the freight lines around the back of Sheffield missing out Sheffield Midland entirely.

AFAIK no normal passenger trains were booked that way at the time.

 

I assume the same loco crew would take it all the way out and back.

 

Keith

Edited June 17, 2017 by melmerby