Coaling 14xx Autotanks

[WillCav]

Hi all,

 

I am planning to build a GWR layout with a modest engine shed facility.

 

Having read The E Lyons book on GWR sheds and numerous threads on this forum, I am familiar with the required movements and operations at the end of the day (coal / ash / washout / water / rotate / stable ready for the next day).

 

I am assuming that 14xx would be detached from their autocoaches at the end of the day as I have never seen a photo of an autocoach on shed.  My questions are:-

 

1) Would the bunker on a 14xx have sufficient coal to last the whole day?  It looks a bit small to me!

 

2) If it needs more coal during the day - would the autocoach be taken to the coaling stage or left at the platform?  It seems a bit of a faff to detach all the mechanical linkages only to have to re-attach them all a few minutes later.

 

Thanking you in advance

 

WillCav

[clachnaharry]

I suspect the bunker must have been large enough for a days running, otherwise I suspect you would see a lot of photographs with the loco connected to the coach at the chimney end, whereas these appear to be pretty non existent

[chrisf]

Whether the trailer was at the chimney end or the bunker end would depend largely on which way round they both were.  The Brixham branch was a case in point.  The normal configuration seems to have been loco hauling trailer to Brixham but there were occasions when the loco was bunker first and some instances of the trailer being propelled to Brixham.

 

As for coaling, I am sure that the trailer was supposed to be uncoupled when the loco went on shed.  However, country branch lines being what they were it may not always have happened.

 

Chris

[The Johnster]

The auto gear was a faff and physically quite onerous to handle, so once the trailer was coupled it tended to stay coupled for the day's working, which would not normally require coaling during the course of it.  It was, I believe, particularly difficult to connect or disconnect on a sharp curve.  One sees photos of complete auto trains shunting small goods yards and I am sure I have seen one of a 14xx at Wallingford being coaled or at least taking water on the shed road with the trailer coupled.  The trailers were originally built with windows in both ends, and one suspects that one of the reasons they were plated in at the van end was damage from coaling, although loco crews also complained of reflections from them.  White lines were painted across these windows at both ends to remind staff coaling locos that there was a sheet of vulnerably glass there, and also on the cab side windows after incidents of signalmen trying to pass tokens through the window to the drivers.  This suggests that coaling with the trailer coupled at the bunker end was allowed and that consideration had been made of the potential window breakage issue.

 

Looks like there isn't a definitive answer to this one, Will, and carriage cleaning arrangements may have had a bearing as well, and as Chrisf says, what happened on remote branch lines when everybody else had gone home and it was only the loco crew disposing left on site was not necessarily what happened on main lines in daytime, or what was supposed to happen.  One hears dark tales of the gear not being connected at all, and the loco simply propelling the trailer with both crew on the loco's footplate...

 

There was no reason specified in rules or operating instructions as to whether the loco had to have the bunker or chimney end coupled to the trailer, and on some auto services, notably the heavily loaded Plymouth and South Wales trains, it was common to see the loco sandwiched between trailers.  Two trailers were the maximum allowed from the loco, so 4 coach trains with the loco in the middle could be seen.  Play in the linkages made it difficult to have more than 2 from the loco except as an unconnected 'normal' trailing load.  Larger locos, 54/64xx or auto fitted 4575 small prairies were used for these, so a bit outside the remit of your 14xx.

 

The bunker held enough coal for the day's work usually; auto working on branches does not require the same sort of sustained effort of main line express or fast goods work, and while a bit of coal is used in getting up banks and getting away from stops, very little is used most of the time as the loco is either coming back down the banks or standing at termini, and speeds were not high as a rule anyway.  Some auto services were main line dashes, like the Gloucester-Chalford service or the Cardiff-Newport 'Marshfield Flyer', and the 14xx could show a pretty good turn of speed when needed, but these were the exception rather than the rule.

 

I think the answer is to do what you think looks right, and there may well have been many instances of the trailer remaining attached to the loco on shed overnight, only being uncoupled when the loco required it's weekly boiler washout.  At some sheds, the loco would not have been able to be stored under cover or reach the coal stage and water column if the coach was attached at the wrong end for it.

Edited June 7, 2017 by The Johnster

[Blandford1969]

There is certainly enough in the bunker to do 70 miles, so, bearing in mind the diagrams which I know about they would not have been re-coaled in the day. Likewise I have not seen any photos on shed connected, but for coaling would imagine they were always disconnected. The auto gear is a faf as you have got to get it in line and its best done on a straight bit of track (sometimes you need someone jiggling the regulator in the coach to get it in line. The rest of the connectors are straight forward.

 

Sorry probably not much help either.

[WillCav]

Many thanks clachnaharry, chrisf and The Johnster for your replies and assistance.

 

As my layout is intended to be the junction station, I will detach the autocoach in a carriage siding when going on shed.

 

regards

 

Will

[The Johnster]

That would be my choice, Will, you can never have too many shunting movements.

[Karhedron]

I agree with the above sentiments that there is probably scope for both. This shot at Marlow shows the engine uncoupled from its autocoach and apparently freshly re-coaled (judging from the full bunker). Doubtless there were times when crews were less fastidious but this at least shows a by-the-book approach.

 

The photo is undated but I would guess it is late-40s based on the white platform lining. The elderly autocoach also looks to be painted in wartime brown livery. If anyone would care to differ, this is just a guesstimate on my part.

 

 

I actually think there is something interesting here. The Marlow branch used to see a daily mixed train in each direction to handle the local freight traffic. I know that in the early 1950s, the Marlow to Bourne End mixed train departed at 3:20. There is a photo below.

 

 

As you can see, the loco was normally at the junction end which means that in the Marlow - Bourne End working, the wagons could go behind the autocoach. I have never seen a photo of the reverse working but I am pretty sure the first photo shows this Bourne End - Marlow mixed train shortly after arrival as you can make out some wagons behind the autocoach. I think that for this service, the loco was probably coupled in front of the autocoach with the wagons behind and the whole lot hauled as a regular train rather than an autotrain. At Marlow, the loco would probably have needed to be uncoupled anyway to shunt the wagons and was probably coaled at the same time. If they were uncoupling the loco anyway, it would make sense to do both those jobs at once.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Karhedron

[£1.38]

Aren't there goods wagons behind the autocoach? Just wondering if the loco is actually doing some shunting?

[The Stationmaster]

Hi all,

 

I am planning to build a GWR layout with a modest engine shed facility.

 

Having read The E Lyons book on GWR sheds and numerous threads on this forum, I am familiar with the required movements and operations at the end of the day (coal / ash / washout / water / rotate / stable ready for the next day).

 

I am assuming that 14xx would be detached from their autocoaches at the end of the day as I have never seen a photo of an autocoach on shed.  My questions are:-

 

1) Would the bunker on a 14xx have sufficient coal to last the whole day?  It looks a bit small to me!

 

2) If it needs more coal during the day - would the autocoach be taken to the coaling stage or left at the platform?  It seems a bit of a faff to detach all the mechanical linkages only to have to re-attach them all a few minutes later.

 

Thanking you in advance

 

WillCav

 

The 14XX bunker had a capacity of 2t 13cwt - so not even a ton less than a 57XX (3t 6cwt) or a 54XX (3t 4cwt) so on many duties they would have no problem lasting all day on lighter work.

 

Incidentally washout was usually done on dead engines and would be very unlikely in even the worst areas to be done more frequently than weekly.

[The Stationmaster]

Aren't there goods wagons behind the autocoach? Just wondering if the loco is actually doing some shunting?

Doing both I would think.  Probably not sufficient room to run-round with the trailer attached and taking the opportunity to coal before getting on with the shunting  (it was quite legitimate to shunt wagons with the trailer attached although some sidings might well be restricted for vehicles that long).

[eastglosmog]

There is a description of working the Wallingford branch auto-car in chapter 5 of Harold Gasson's "Footplate Days" (OPC, 1976).  He describes the engine being detached from the coach whilst shunting at Wallingford at least three times during his shift and also at the end of the day when the engine was sheded at Wallingford.  Also, if you add sound, you need to include the occasional "cheap" from the whistle as the engine pulls away from the coach for those occasions when the fireman forgot to detach the whistle chain!  No mention of having to coal the engine during the shift - seams to have been done by the shed man at Wallingford over night.

[wagonman]

Karhedron's photos are indeed of the Marlow mixed train – the upper photo shows it having just arrived at Marlow, the loco chimney to driving end of the trailer. It is presumably about to run round and shunt the wagons. The lower phot is presumably of the return journey with the loco coupled bunker to non-driving end, though I doubt the auto-gear was connected until after the train was shunted at Bourne End.

 

I have seen autotrains on shed. The Ashburton unit, for one, was often to be found thus. At the other extreme, the Watlington branch trailer was usually hauled by non-auto fitted locos so it was no problem to store it overnight in its little carriage shed.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Not being coaled but being watered on Aylesbury shed with the autocoach Thrush still attached.

 

David

 

 

[kandc_au]

From memory I think there is a pic of the Ashburton loco being coaled while connected to the trailer.

 

Khris

[Marshall5]

From memory I think there is a pic of the Ashburton loco being coaled while connected to the trailer.

 

Khris

I won't post it here for copyright reasons but there are 2 photos on p49 of G.W. Branchline Termini Vol 2 of a 14xx still coupled to its auto trailer at Ashburton shed coaling stage.

Ray.

[Karhedron]

I won't post it here for copyright reasons but there are 2 photos on p49 of G.W. Branchline Termini Vol 2 of a 14xx still coupled to its auto trailer at Ashburton shed coaling stage.

Here is a different photo of coaling at Ashburton but in this case the loco appears to be hauling a Hawksworth suburban brake composite in place of its more usual autocoach.

 

[Nearholmer]

I just happen to have the GWR General Appendix to the WTT for 1936 about my person, and that has several pages of instructions about auto-car operation. It goes into detail about watering while still connected, the main issue being not to have the coach accidentally poking out past a signal set against the train, but makes no mention of coaling, either to permit or forbid. It does say that it is perfectly ok for a loco propelling a car, in fact up to two, to also haul a tail load, making clear that it isn't necessary to detach the loco and put it at the front; it includes a table showing what tail loads an 0-4-2T and and 0-6-0T can haul in this mode over various gradients.

 

Kevin

[WillCav]

More thanks to all the contributers including Blandford1969, Karhedron, £1.38, The Stationmaster, eastglosmog, wagonman, David Bigcheeseplant, kandc_au, Marshall5 and Nearholmer.  I now feel I have a reasonable grasp of the operations thanks to all your info and photos.

 

I have now decided to program in at least one visit to the coaling stage during the day (without the autocoach attached).  It would make sense to do this when one of the branch goods trains is occupying the single line.  This has the added bonus of adding more shunting to mix up the routine a bit.

 

Thanks again for the assistance

 

regards

 

Will