Gloucester station

[melmerby]

With all the housing development on the southern edge of Gloucester at Quedgeley, I think a new station should be built there, to serve both the Swindon and Bristol lines. A new parkway station should also be built to the west of Gloucester on the Chepstow line, as the traffic into Gloucester from that direction is awful.

You could build one in the triangle. with a bit of track re-alignment the minimum area could be used for the station

The North-South platform(s) could be West of the current alignment so as not to hinder through traffic

All routes covered!

 

Keith

[The Johnster]

I think Gloucester is a victim of it's railway history and geography.  The old Eastgate station was more centrally located and better able to provide services to everywhere from everywhere except South Wales, but the level crossings were a serious concern by the 60s and BR were under pressure ot 'rationalise', which in this case meant 'developing' Central as a terminus for all but South Wales traffic and selling of the extremely valuable land occupied by Eastgate and the Midland yard and loco depot in the angle between the two stations.  I doubt anyone except the most hardened railway atmosphere fan missed the footbridge, a filthy, damp, stinking, poorly lit nightmare which changed direction so that you couldn't see one end from the other, or either from the middle, where you always seemed to be alone and trying to respond to the distant blowing of whistles in fear of missing your connection, while there were always approaching shadows and the sound of running footsteps, when there was nobody there...  It blew down in a gale shortly after it was closed.

 

But the 'rationalisation' at Central, a vital freight route connecting South Wales with the Midlands and the North which could not be dispensed with unless those trains were routed via the Severn Tunnel, already at capacity, was a cut price and shoddy affair.  The old down platform was extended towards Barton Crossing, and a cheap and not particularly cheerful canopy put up; you could be a train length or more away from facilities out there.  Gloucester is saddled with a station which is inconveniently placed for both it's own and the railway's needs, and is increasingly ignored by XC traffic, while Cheltenham, arguably a less important place, isn't.  My solution would be prohibitively expensive, unless you imagine it as a road bypass scheme, which suddenly makes it all more viable... A new railway branching north from the Bristol-Gloucester line at Haresfield, skirting Quedgely, crossing the canal and river (a bridge would have to be high enough for shipping and a tunnel might be cheaper), and joining the South Wales Main Line west of Over.  There would then be only one railway route through the city.

 

Unlikely, though.  Bachmann will release the 94xx first.

[Edwin_m]

But the 'rationalisation' at Central, a vital freight route connecting South Wales with the Midlands and the North which could not be dispensed with unless those trains were routed via the Severn Tunnel, already at capacity, was a cut price and shoddy affair.  The old down platform was extended towards Barton Crossing, and a cheap and not particularly cheerful canopy put up; you could be a train length or more away from facilities out there.  Gloucester is saddled with a station which is inconveniently placed for both it's own and the railway's needs, and is increasingly ignored by XC traffic, while Cheltenham, arguably a less important place, isn't.  My solution would be prohibitively expensive, unless you imagine it as a road bypass scheme, which suddenly makes it all more viable... A new railway branching north from the Bristol-Gloucester line at Haresfield, skirting Quedgely, crossing the canal and river (a bridge would have to be high enough for shipping and a tunnel might be cheaper), and joining the South Wales Main Line west of Over.  There would then be only one railway route through the city.

It was fortunate that the rationalisation didn't spend a bit more money demolishing the Up platform at Central or even its canopy.  It often strikes me as remarkable the facilities BR managed to retain for parcels use and I wonder if that was the work of some far-sighted person somewhere in the hierarchy.  So when Central proved inadequate it was possible to re-open the platform relatively easily, though the bridge was horrible with luggage last time I used it (I think it now has lifts).  The same could happen at Preston in a few years time. 

 

Stopping everything in Cheltenham does give the considerable advantage of same-platform interchange between the routes to Gloucester, South Wales, Swindon, Bristol and beyond in one direction and Worcester, Birmingham and beyond in the other.  Far easier than changing at Birmingham! 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Edwin_m

[Andy Kirkham]

From Railway Magazine, April 1969

 

“Gloucester eccentricity”

British Railways, Western Region, Public Relations department explains: “Originally, in an attempt to reduce our costs at Gloucester, we planned to concentrate all passenger facilities at Eastgate and close Central Station. To make this possible an extension platform was built on the Cheltenham end of Central Station’s platform serving South Wales-bound trains. The extension, which also serves Cheltenham and Birmingham trains, was to have been linked by a footpath to Eastgate Station and thus eliminate the long triangular walk now necessary for interchange passengers. It was the introduction of multiple-aspect signalling at Gloucester that gave the opportunity for two-way working for South Wales-Birmingham trains at the extension and it is the track layout and position of the signals for this operation which prevents trains from continuing to use the original platform as suggested by your correspondent.

The plan to provide a footpath connection between the extension and Eastgate, which would allow the Central Station buildings to be finally closed, has since been overtaken by a firm proposal to build an entirely new station for Gloucester at Barnwood. Because of the cost this project involves, no further money, beyond that required to maintain safety or to achieve economy, will be spent at Eastgate or Central stations.”

Edited June 28, 2017 by Andy Kirkham

[Phil Bullock]

The Cheltenham and Gloucester area is devoid of any logical transport strategy - its current infrastructure is based on expedient solutions from the 60s/70s era.

 

No thought has been given to town centre access in Cheltenham where Lansdown is too far out to be convenient - and the current turn back arrangements for trains from/to the south using Alstone sidings were never designed to cope with current levels of traffic.

 

Gloucester station is currently much more convenient for the town centre - but has already been highlighted not convenient at all in terms of traffic movements to/from the South West. So any attempt to change provision in Gloucester would result in another compromise unless integration in to a local transport system is a component of any development.

 

As for Worcester Parkway ..... with that development and the new station at Bromsgrove has the time come to completely recast XC services - Much delay currently occurs between Kings Norton and BNS ...so why not stop at Worcester and Bromsgrove (change for stations to BNS) and run via Camp Hill?

 

Phil

[DCB]

Gloucester station is actually quite convenient for people visiting Gloucester. It is hopeless for Gloucester people going elsewhere, but in any case the service to London is appallingly slow, about 50 mph average on a HST!  90 miles in almost 2 hours.  Quicker to drive to Kemble or Swindon and catch the train there.

Stopping at Cheltenham has a very small time penalty as it is on a severe curve between what should be 125 MPH stretches.

 

The holy grail of a single Gloucester station is unachievable, you need the present one for visitors inward commuters etc as it is handy for City Centre and for Gloucester shire's only remaining fully functional 24 hour general hospital, while the need for the reversal of XC servces or their omission of a Gloucester stop is more apparent than real considering how few passengers wish to use the facility.

 

No doubt the official Monster Laboral Democratic party will drag up the idea again before the next election, but its a non starter.

[Phil Bullock]

David

 

Thanks for bringing the healthcare access issue in to the fray...I had originally included that in my post but deleted it as being an NHS employee it smacked too much of self interest for me to raise it.

 

The compromises highlighted also mean that commuter flows by rail within the County are stifled. What price a park and ride scheme to the West of Gloucester - Grange Court - and the North of Cheltenham - Stoke Orchard - perhaps?

 

From the north of the County it makes more sense in both time and cost to drive to Evesham and pick up Worcester line services for London journeys - and some even use Warwick! It may be a myth that the fastest London journey from Cheltenham used to be via Andoversford and Kingham but there is a slight ring of truth...and we will wait and see what transpires when the 800s arrive - how many Gloucester and Cheltenham to London journeys will require a change at Swindon?

 

Phil

 

Phil

[Killybegs]

Gloucester station is actually quite convenient for people visiting Gloucester. It is hopeless for Gloucester people going elsewhere, but in any case the service to London is appallingly slow, about 50 mph average on a HST!  90 miles in almost 2 hours.  Quicker to drive to Kemble or Swindon and catch the train there.

Stopping at Cheltenham has a very small time penalty as it is on a severe curve between what should be 125 MPH stretches.

 

The holy grail of a single Gloucester station is unachievable, you need the present one for visitors inward commuters etc as it is handy for City Centre and for Gloucester shire's only remaining fully functional 24 hour general hospital, while the need for the reversal of XC servces or their omission of a Gloucester stop is more apparent than real considering how few passengers wish to use the facility.

 

No doubt the official Monster Laboral Democratic party will drag up the idea again before the next election, but its a non starter.

 

When I lived in Cheltenham and travelled to London regularly for early morning meetings, I always drove to Swindon to catch the train. Quicker and cheaper!

[Joseph_Pestell]

Gloucester station is actually quite convenient for people visiting Gloucester. It is hopeless for Gloucester people going elsewhere, but in any case the service to London is appallingly slow, about 50 mph average on a HST!  90 miles in almost 2 hours.  Quicker to drive to Kemble or Swindon and catch the train there.

Stopping at Cheltenham has a very small time penalty as it is on a severe curve between what should be 125 MPH stretches.

 

The holy grail of a single Gloucester station is unachievable, you need the present one for visitors inward commuters etc as it is handy for City Centre and for Gloucester shire's only remaining fully functional 24 hour general hospital, while the need for the reversal of XC servces or their omission of a Gloucester stop is more apparent than real considering how few passengers wish to use the facility.

 

No doubt the official Monster Laboral Democratic party will drag up the idea again before the next election, but its a non starter.

 

I have never thought that a Parkway station at Barnwood would/should replace Gloucester Central. But it would be a useful interchange point for travellers on XC services.

[Andy Kirkham]

I seem to remember a few years ago Network Rail floating the idea of diverting the main line through Cheltenham onto the old GW trackbed through the town and building a short new stretch to connect back to the Midland route near Swindon village (I remember being perplexed on first reading this as I had no idea there was another place called Swindon). This would have allowed a more convenient station, presumably near the site of Malvern Road. I think there was a good deal of opposition from those living near the GW trackbed, but in all honesty it's hard to imagine such an ambitious plan actually going ahead, as the benefits to the railway (as opposed to the passengers) don't seem all that great (elimination of a level crossing, I suppose).

Edited June 29, 2017 by Andy Kirkham

[The Stationmaster]

I don't remember the signal box on the footbridge. When did it go?

 

I suspect it was closed as a signalbox in 1938 when Gloucester East underwent alterations and acquired a new frame.  When the structure went I don't know but presume early 1950s.

 

I think you are right about the timescale for Cheltenham-Gloucester bit which was joint MR/GWR.

 

There were however 4 tracks from Standish Jn. to Gloucester in the 1800s, originally it was a double track broad gauge line but this state of affairs couldn't continue once the Midland were involved and eventually the GWR and MR had independent double track lines side by side. At some period a GWR-MR connexion was laid at Standish to allow the GWR direct access to Bristol from their line

 

Keith

 

I can remember reading about the new (Down GW to Up LMS, Down LMS to Up GW) double junction going at Standish so it was probably very early 1960s.

[melmerby]

 

I can remember reading about the new (Down GW to Up LMS, Down LMS to Up GW) double junction going at Standish so it was probably very early 1960s.

R.A. Cooke's 1947 GWR Atlas as well as a 1911 Midland Atlas show the South Junction, (Up MR to Down GWR and Up GWR to Down MR) so that was there early on.

Cooke's Atlas notes the North Junction (with the reverse options) was added in 1964.

 

Keith

Edited June 29, 2017 by melmerby

[Edwin_m]

Deleted

Edited June 29, 2017 by Edwin_m

[Edwin_m]

R.A. Cooke's 1947 GWR Atlas as well as a 1911 Midland Atlas show the South Junction, (Up MR to Down GWR and Up GWR to Down MR) so that was there early on.

Cooke's Atlas notes the North Junction (with the reverse options) was added in 1964.

 

Keith

The GWR had running powers between Standish and Westerleigh, as it had no other reasonably direct route between Gloucester and Bristol.  The South junction would be needed to access these.  When was the four-track between Standish and Cheltenham (with a gap past Gloucester) reduced to two tracks? 

[DCB]

David

 

Thanks for bringing the healthcare access issue in to the fray...I had originally included that in my post but deleted it as being an NHS employee it smacked too much of self interest for me to raise it.

 

The compromises highlighted also mean that commuter flows by rail within the County are stifled. What price a park and ride scheme to the West of Gloucester - Grange Court - and the North of Cheltenham - Stoke Orchard - perhaps?

 

From the north of the County it makes more sense in both time and cost to drive to Evesham and pick up Worcester line services for London journeys - and some even use Warwick! It may be a myth that the fastest London journey from Cheltenham used to be via Andoversford and Kingham but there is a slight ring of truth...and we will wait and see what transpires when the 800s arrive - how many Gloucester and Cheltenham to London journeys will require a change at Swindon?

 

Phil

 

Phil

It is a myth that the quickest route from London to Cheltenham was via Andoversford, In fact it took 10 minutes longer by semifast via Oxford to Kingham and the stopper to Cheltenham than by the best Cheltenham Express.  It was the Cheltenham to London Journey which was quicker through Andoversford, the MSWJR South express to Andover and change for Waterloo was the quickest before WW1  and GWR decelerations and when pressed to restore the schedules the GWR introduced the "Worlds Fastest Train"  The Cheltenham Flyer which set the blistering pace of around 45mph for the 90 odd miles as the crow flies.  

Gloucester is not London.  There is no mid 19th century Underground. Its no good commuting by rail to the outskirts and taking a bus to work. along its dysfunctional road system  Passengers other than from the south wales line will just take the bus all the way, closing the present station will kill the commuter traffic, some of which comes by XC so even a 2 station solution is not a solution.   They should have rationalised Eastgate instead of closing it.

[phil-b259]

Haven't they reopened the former UP platform, seen here when it was parcels only (1979)?

 

Gloucester 5 August 1979 OM1 171-012.jpg

Only partially - if you examine the photo you will note that the platform line upon which the vans are standing is a loop off the down main.

 

When the platform was reinstated for passenger traffic it was done by extending it out over the site of the loop so it serves the down main. I presume this was done to avoid alterations to the signalling* - but it does mean that a down train calling at Swindon will hold up the one behind unless the latter uses the now bidirectionally signaled up main.

 

*Simply reinstating the old layout with what were sharp slow speed turnouts to / from the loop would probably impose a worse time penalty than the current situation - though as with most things Western Region, Mike (The Stationmaster) will no doubt be able to give further details

[david.hill64]

Only partially - if you examine the photo you will note that the platform line upon which the vans are standing is a loop off the down main.

 

When the platform was reinstated for passenger traffic it was done by extending it out over the site of the loop so it serves the down main. I presume this was done to avoid alterations to the signalling* - but it does mean that a down train calling at Swindon will hold up the one behind unless the latter uses the now bidirectionally signaled up main.

 

*Simply reinstating the old layout with what were sharp slow speed turnouts to / from the loop would probably impose a worse time penalty than the current situation - though as with most things Western Region, Mike (The Stationmaster) will no doubt be able to give further details

Phil: are you sure about that? The current arrangement has two through roads and two platform faces in loops. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloucester_railway_station

[david.hill64]

I'm not sure if there was a scissors on the Up side at Gloucester Central but there was definitely one on the Down side - complete with 'banjo' signals like the sole survivor at Worcester.

 

 

It looks like the up scissors may well have been removed by the time I would have been able to remember it. Nice picture here from wiki:

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gloucester_Central_Station_1968.jpg#/media/File:Gloucester_Central_Station_1968.jpg

 

Anyone for a banjo?

Edited June 30, 2017 by david.hill64

[caradoc]

Only partially - if you examine the photo you will note that the platform line upon which the vans are standing is a loop off the down main.

 

When the platform was reinstated for passenger traffic it was done by extending it out over the site of the loop so it serves the down main. I presume this was done to avoid alterations to the signalling* - but it does mean that a down train calling at Swindon will hold up the one behind unless the latter uses the now bidirectionally signaled up main.

 

*Simply reinstating the old layout with what were sharp slow speed turnouts to / from the loop would probably impose a worse time penalty than the current situation - though as with most things Western Region, Mike (The Stationmaster) will no doubt be able to give further details

 

Phil-b259, this is the situation at Swindon, not Gloucester; As david.hill64 says the re-opened platform at Gloucester is still on a loop.

[phil-b259]

Phil-b259, this is the situation at Swindon, not Gloucester; As david.hill64 says the re-opened platform at Gloucester is still on a loop.

Sorry, got my locations muddled up - it's been a tough batch of nights this week.

[The Stationmaster]

The GWR had running powers between Standish and Westerleigh, as it had no other reasonably direct route between Gloucester and Bristol.  The South junction would be needed to access these.  When was the four-track between Standish and Cheltenham (with a gap past Gloucester) reduced to two tracks? 

 

I'm fairly sure it was done as part of Gloucester MAS as certain bits of the former quadruple track became Goods Loops at that time.  That would make it around September/October 1968.  As usual with some of the WR MAS schemes I was about with my camera for some of the Gloucester scheme but only taking a few pictures at stations so nothing for the area south to Standish Jcn.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

...its current infrastructure is based on expedient solutions from the 60s/70s era.

 

Phil

 

Yes, the 1860s/70s!

[Edwin_m]

I'm fairly sure it was done as part of Gloucester MAS as certain bits of the former quadruple track became Goods Loops at that time.  That would make it around September/October 1968.  As usual with some of the WR MAS schemes I was about with my camera for some of the Gloucester scheme but only taking a few pictures at stations so nothing for the area south to Standish Jcn.

Thanks Mike.  I assumed the MAS came along after Eastgate was closed, but on checking Disused Stations I see it was re-signalled "after 1968" so no more than seven years before closure. 

[MJI]

Gloucester Central station is well located for the town centre, and the bus station, Eastgate was not much worse. Central had reasonable parking AFAIR as I never paid as I had bikes at that time and parking for them was free.

 

I can just remember Warships through Eastgate. And even once travelling on BS gangwayed stock which was NOT DMU.

 

Basically Gloucester & Worcester are both would not start from here for railways, Cheltenham not that much better with Spa miles from the town centre and is best used for being dropped off or changing trains.

 

Worst thing about the whole area was every train stopping at Cheltenham and lack of DMU service to Gloucester when this happened.

 

Often ended up with having to DMU it between Gloucester and Worcester as both cities were missed by expresses.

[John_Miles]

So who wanted to get rid of Eastgate. Was it the City Council or the railway or both. Whatever, it hindsight it looks like a mistake.