Dear Hattons: Time for a "proper" Autocoach please.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The GWR is arguably the most popular big 4 railway to model ...

Arguable it is. The last poll data I saw indicated rough parity between the big 4. Alternative samplings, exhibitions and the correspondence on this and other online sites. It all says to me that now there is a more even spread of RTR available giving more parityin  coverage of all the groups, that one time dominant popularity is long over.

 

As for commerce, there wouldn't be the explosion in non-GWR product choice if customers were not buying. What we purchase - the wallet vote as I think of it - is the most honest vote we cast. I propose that a comparison of the newly tooled product introductions for each of the big 4 over the last twenty years will probably be a fair measure of the relative interest. I haven't totted up that proposed metric, but my gut tells me something other than GWR leads.

[coachmann]

The GWR is arguably the most popular big 4 railway to model ..

 

To those folk who knew the GWR and Western Region before 1963, the GWR was different, the cleanest overall and quite simply the best (as far as fans were concerned). From a modeling viewpoint it was easier to build locos with no outside valvegear and easier to paint when the green had no lining. Model builders built branchlines with branchline engines, so no locos carried any lining. Coaches too could be painted plain chocolate & cream without any lining, even if it should have been there. They looked GWR and very passable.

 

In contrast, modelling the other Big Four companies often meant full valvegear and some lining out. Derek Lawrence and I popularized the early LMS in a market similar to Exley's when we started producing full panelled Period I coaches, while the GWR was always popular (but not the Western Region of BR). The Southern Railway and Southern Region of BR too became popular as BSL Models expended it coach kit range.

 

The LNER was a different matter....as always!  It was a railway company that was out of the question for amateurs (Apple green livery, grained teak livery and domed Gresley coach roofs). I developed a sprayed on version of teak to get our coaches off the ground, but eventually we had to bring in two painters that could paint the grained teak finish commercially (I was too expensive). 

 

Today, it is hard to say if the GWR is the most popular when RTR manufacturers don't even consider core cross-country engines like the Large Prairie Tank, 43XX 2-6-0 and 'Manor' 4-6-0 are worth producing.

Edited July 22, 2017 by coachmann

[BMacdermott]

As for commerce, there wouldn't be the explosion in non-GWR product choice if customers were not buying. What we purchase - the wallet vote as I think of it - is the most honest vote we cast. I propose that a comparison of the newly tooled product introductions for each of the big 4 over the last twenty years will probably be a fair measure of the relative interest. I haven't totted up that proposed metric, but my gut tells me something other than GWR leads.

 

Hello 34C

 

Last August, I prepared a table for MREmag showing steam locos announced or produced from all-new tooling since 2000 by the major makers. I have summarised that below (updated to today). It excludes duplications:

 

LNER: 28 (five tank, 23 tender)

LMS: 27 (eight tank, 19 tender)

GWR: 23 (11 tank, 12 tender)

SR: 19 (eight tank, 11 tender)

 

Brian

[The Johnster]

I can certainly remember a period when every other layout at a show would be a GWR blt, with the obligatory K's 48xx and auto trailer, white roof gleaming in the sun...   It was, as Coachmann says, 'easy' to do, as well as the apparent simplicity of locos in unlined liveries with no outside valve gear, the auto trains were especially popular with exhibitors whose work was, shall we say, less than to the standard of modern rtr in terms of appearance or runnig; you could pose your non-running K's 45xx and rake of Ratio 4-wheelers or choc/cream Triang suburban brake 3rds masquerading as B sets in the main platform road because the thing didn't run properly, and neither did most of your point motors, and shuttle the auto back and forth for the 2 feet from the bay to the fiddle yard to keep something running for the punters.  

 

Not all GW blts were like that but far too many were, and I remember even layouts that were featured and praised in the model railway press of the day for their realism and attention to cameo detail that, when push came to shove, just plain didn't work!  No space for the layout of your dreams; build an imaginary GW branch terminus like all the other ones, nobody's done that before, we were repeatedly advised in the magazine articles and letters pages.  All this took place in a chocolate box world of picture postcard South Devon villages in high summer that probably never existed, even in South Devon.  In fairness to those who modelled and exhibited them, the availability of reliable equipment was a lot more wobbly in those days, and standards were much lower; indifferently skilled modellers such as myself did not have access to near scale perfect rtr that ran like sewing machines.  But by the 1980s there was a a 'oh, no, not another boring GW blt' feeling in the air, and with rtr improving to the extent that good looking models of prototypes that had never seen the sky over even an imaginary South Devon began to appear, other railways, periods, and even other sorts of GW layouts began to get al look in.

 

The GW hence lost some of it's excess popularity, partly for the above reasons and partly because those who remembered it were dying off, and transition era WR began to assert itself as, apparently, the most popular genre to model in.  People who might have once gone for a GW blt because it could be crammed into an unfeasibly minimum space (most real GW branch termini were pretty spread out affairs, and even St Ives, hemmed in by cliffs and the Atlantic, could hold 12 coaches) started building shunting puzzles or mpd layouts, and modern image at last became acceptable as proper, serious, modelling.  I speak as a lo-fi GW BR steam era blt modeller, but plead the excuse that my location is the bleak rain-soaked semi-derelict fastnesses of the central Glamorgan mining valleys in the 1950s, as far away from chocolate box South Devon as the GW got in appearance and aesthetics; still used the same locos and stock, though!

 

The above poll is interesting and shows the much more balanced state of modern affiliations; it is not surprising that the LNER has the most new introductions as it had the most catching up to do, as well as perhaps some recovery from the train set associations of Flying Scotsman or Mallard.  The LMS and BR/ScR sections of it were by far the biggest of the big 4, and should, other things being equal, be top dog in terms of numbers.  Large Prairies, 43xx, and Manors are not available at the present, but have been and I'm fairly confident will be again, but they do represent a very significant gap for present day GW/WR steam modellers, as does the lack of a panelled auto trailer (see how I got myself back on topic, there) and non-gangwayed coaches.

Edited July 22, 2017 by The Johnster

[Miss Prism]

It was all Cyril Freezer's fault....

[tomparryharry]

A Great Western branch line terminus? Crikey! Haven't thought of that one!

 

A bit of plotting, methinks! Now, where's me Ratio kits.....?

[The Johnster]

And your brown and cream painted Airfix construction kit Midland signalbox.

 Ditto                        ditto                    ditto                         engine shed.

 ditto                        ditto                    ditto                         water tower

etc....

[Seanem44]

No, I don't think anyone expects a top quality model for a bargain basement price, much as we'd like one, nor do I think the OP wants a better A30 auto trailer because he thinks the current one is 'dated'; I think he wants an auto trailer from a period that has never been tackled in rtr, a panelled one, the various diagrams of which outnumbered the steel bodied ones well into the 1950s, especially if you include those that had had some of their panelling plated over.  I agree with him to the extent that I would like to see an increase in the biodiversity of the types and time ranges of the rtr offerings, with quality being not that important so long as the model is dimensionally accurate and can be worked up to something decent.

 

I agree with you that the Hornby A30 is dimensionally accurate and can be worked up, and represents pretty good value for money.  I won't be buying one because I'm happy enough with my 1977 vintage Arifix one, but would be in the market for one if it had only just become available.  My opinion (other opinions are available and may be better in any given respect, or not), is that a modeller might be happy to detail up a £30 trailer but less chuffed at the  of spending time and such money as it costs doing the same to a £70 one.  I am happy with a market that gives me the choice and opportunity.  Of course, we are talking about auto trailers here, and my attitude to a 12 coach rake might be a bit more polarised, about 12 times as much even by my maths!

This.

 

I'm not looking for a bargain priced model. I just spent $100 on three warflat wagons (pardon my Americanism).  Never imagined paying that for three freight cars, and that's before the tanks I have to add.  I am willing to pay what the model is worth.  I highly doubt it would come in at over 100 pounds.  I don't think it would cost 80 either.  Though if it was 80, I would spend the money on it because I know it would be the highest quality available.  And judging from the warflats, no stone would be left unturned in its development. 

 

Nor am I looking for an update of the current A30.  I don't model the BR era.  I don't want to, and I prefer to not take a BR era Autocoach that I need to cut, saw and paint to look like a 1920s-late 30s era variant. 

 

Understanding we can't always have what we want, this post started as a feeler to see if there is sufficient demand out there and hopes that Hattons (or someone else) would take notice.

 

As mentioned, if a Dynamo car that has much less utility can make it into production, surely an item that might have much more widespread appeal and utility can.  I suspect that those in need would be willing to purchase more than one.

 

Just my two cents.

[The Johnster]

Americanism pardoned, mate, you are entitled to think of things in dollars and cents after all and at least you called the warllats wagons initially and not cars until the following sentence!  

 

Thread's gone dead a bit and I hope that doesn't mean that interest is waning.  I think that, if there is a constituency out there for a pre-Collett auto trailer, the people to lobby are probably Dapol, capable of producing excellent models when they are not persisting in knocking out 1950s Hornby Dublo toys with inappropriate loads and horribly solid moulded chassis detail (BR steel open in unfitted grey livery with plastic incorrect coal load).  They have an O gauge Diagram N trailer which they inherited from Lionheart, a smaller outfit that they bought out, and I have hopes, perhaps forlorn ones, that this will eventually go through the 4mm shrinking machine.  I do not hold out much hope for the Kernow steam railmotor being available soon, much less a version of it rebuilt into an auto trailer, which they haven't even mentioned.

 

Incidentally, the A30 is correct for GW late 30s era modelling; the Collett diagrams A27, 28, and 30 were brand new vehicles all introduced around 1930 and widely spread across the GW network.  The Bachmann A38, though designed by Hawksworth under the auspices of the GWE, was not actually produced until 1949, with a later batch in 1952, so cannot be used correctly for any GW period layout or in any GWR livery.  The Bachmann GWR liveried version is based, correctly, on an incorrectly painted preserved trailer.  Airfix/Hornby whatever A30s are fine in post 1930 GWR livery, and were of course painted in various BR liveries later up to and including lined maroon, AFAIK the only pre-BR built or adapted auto trailers to do so.

 

My apologies for British market conditions and pricing; we don't like it much either but, like you, have to endure it.  We are coming out of a golden age in which cheap and very high quality models were available from China, and Hornby moved their manufacturing operation out there to take advantage of this.  At the same time as the aftermath of an economic recession has filtered through to the relatively well off types with disposable income that most railway modellers are here, the Chinese have been asking for higher wages to improve their own standards of living and who can blame them for that.  I know the same cold economic winds have blown over Woodbridge, VA,. but the US model railway industry is backed by some big players and a national ecomomy still large enough to dictate terms to it's suppliers to a greater extent than any of ours are, and, while we moan (our national pastime) we pay up and the market bears it; US customers are, I suspect, a bit less pathetically grateful for what their better and overlords see fit to give them than us, descended as we are from so many generations of peasants and Baldricks.  The Baccy A38 was a step change, an admittedly superb model but of a coach at a locomotive's price, even discounted; we howled in protest and our wallets howled in pain, but we've bought it in volume and will continue to.  I just paid £22 for a Hornby brake van and have come to think that it is a bargain, so conditioned and pliable am I! 

Edited July 28, 2017 by The Johnster

[Seanem44]

Americanism pardoned, mate, you are entitled to think of things in dollars and cents after all and at least you called the warllats wagons initially and not cars until the following sentence!

 

Thread's gone dead a bit and I hope that doesn't mean that interest is waning. I think that, if there is a constituency out there for a pre-Collett auto trailer, the people to lobby are probably Dapol, capable of producing excellent models when they are not persisting in knocking out 1950s Hornby Dublo toys with inappropriate loads and horribly solid moulded chassis detail (BR steel open in unfitted grey livery with plastic incorrect coal load). They have an O gauge Diagram N trailer which they inherited from Lionheart, a smaller outfit that they bought out, and I have hopes, perhaps forlorn ones, that this will eventually go through the 4mm shrinking machine. I do not hold out much hope for the Kernow steam railmotor being available soon, much less a version of it rebuilt into an auto trailer, which they haven't even mentioned.

 

Incidentally, the A30 is correct for GW late 30s era modelling; the Collett diagrams A27, 28, and 30 were brand new vehicles all introduced around 1930 and widely spread across the GW network. The Bachmann A38, though designed by Hawksworth under the auspices of the GWE, was not actually produced until 1949, with a later batch in 1952, so cannot be used correctly for any GW period layout or in any GWR livery. The Bachmann GWR liveried version is based, correctly, on an incorrectly painted preserved trailer. Airfix/Hornby whatever A30s are fine in post 1930 GWR livery, and were of course painted in various BR liveries later up to and including lined maroon, AFAIK the only pre-BR built or adapted auto trailers to do so.

 

My apologies for British market conditions and pricing; we don't like it much either but, like you, have to endure it. We are coming out of a golden age in which cheap and very high quality models were available from China, and Hornby moved their manufacturing operation out there to take advantage of this. At the same time as the aftermath of an economic recession has filtered through to the relatively well off types with disposable income that most railway modellers are here, the Chinese have been asking for higher wages to improve their own standards of living and who can blame them for that. I know the same cold economic winds have blown over Woodbridge, VA,. but the US model railway industry is backed by some big players and a national ecomomy still large enough to dictate terms to it's suppliers to a greater extent than any of ours are, and, while we moan (our national pastime) we pay up and the market bears it; US customers are, I suspect, a bit less pathetically grateful for what their better and overlords see fit to give them than us, descended as we are from so many generations of peasants and Baldricks. The Baccy A38 was a step change, an admittedly superb model but of a coach at a locomotive's price, even discounted; we howled in protest and our wallets howled in pain, but we've bought it in volume and will continue to. I just paid £22 for a Hornby brake van and have come to think that it is a bargain, so conditioned and pliable am I!

We have not been immune to the price increases over here in the states despite having large companies with thousands more in the hobby. It seems like what I was paying $10 a decade ago is now easily $20. The quality of the models have gone up and so too have the prices. Though it does seem there are tradeoffs. I have always found British steam engines to cost much less than US engines of same quality. Though I think this is attributed to the more industrial look the US went for which resulted in much more outside piping, etc, which costs more to create. British steam engines kept theirs clean and graceful, save for Ivatt.

 

Still, even my large N scale collection would cost me a 1/3 more than what I bought it for these days. The same Engines as well.

 

But I agree with you. Most US Modeller don't know how good we have it.

 

I suspect small run commissions may be the way forward to achieve limited profits.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Seanem44

[The Johnster]

I agree, but am no business expert!

[tomparryharry]

Interest hasn't waned, as far as I know. I'm still after a high quality, high-fidelity model of an inter-war autocoach, just like before.

 

After all of the negative responses directed around he web, I'd be very surprised to see an autocoach in 4mm/00. Several thousand posts can start to form an opinion against anything remotely Western. You can take it from me; if I was a production manager anywhere near the hobby, I'd be looking elsewhere to keep the managing director, and his shareholders happy. I could do without all of the aggro, implied or otherwise.

 

I'd guess it's private commission from here. I'd really, really like to see one. But, really? Be honest with yourselves...

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[Ian Hargrave]

Interest hasn't waned, as far as I know. I'm still after a high quality, high-fidelity model of an inter-war autocoach, just like before.After all of the negative responses directed around he web, I'd be very surprised to see an autocoach in 4mm/00. Several thousand posts can start to form an opinion against anything remotely Western. You can take it from me; if I was a production manager anywhere near the hobby, I'd be looking elsewhere to keep the managing director, and his shareholders happy. I could do without all of the aggro, implied or otherwise.I'd guess it's private commission from here. I'd really, really like to see one. But, really? Be honest with yourselves...Cheers,Ian.

Ponder this,my namesake.Only the most vociferous of us post.What about that body of souls....bless them....often labelled "The Silent Majority" ? Or even those who have the temerity to shun RMWeb ? Or ...shockhorror....those who label us "That bunch of whingers".

Believe it....they exist.They too may be desirous of an autocoach produced to 20thC standards.Disregard the naysayers.We want one,don't we ?

[tomparryharry]

Ponder this,my namesake.Only the most vociferous of us post.What about that body of souls....bless them....often labelled "The Silent Majority" ? Or even those who have the temerity to shun RMWeb ? Or ...shockhorror....those who label us "That bunch of whingers".

Believe it....they exist.They too may be desirous of an autocoach produced to 20thC standards.Disregard the naysayers.We want one,don't we ?

Well, I'd like one! Reality, however, may take a different path. To get a product to market, there first exists a meeting to discuss the pros & cons of making the product. There will be lots of "Oohs & aahs" whilst the prospective product goes around the table. Various points get thrown in, such as complexity, cost effectiveness, etc. Can we make a profit?

 

Then, someone notices he word Great Western on the EP. Memories are stirred. Production meetings to discuss re-tooling costs. Lost production slots, as dies get taken off, for new tooling. Lots of cross words. QC getting in the neck, all those sorts of things. Makes you want to take up a less dangerous sport, like telling yourself that a lion is really a big pussycat... Been there, done that.

 

No, I fully agree. I would really like the autocoach. I'd even pay a good pro-rata cost for a high fidelity model. Perhaps when next the polls come out from BRM Web, we poll high enough for others to take notice. Funny as it seems, my money is on Hornby. They are turning out High-fidelity stuff right now, so getting funds to develop the model, and bringing it to market are probably easier for them, than a lot of others.

 

Now, where's that Dart Casting catalogue....?

 

Ian

[Ian Hargrave]

I agree with you entirely about Hornby. Very much the preferred manufacturer but my hunch is not just now which is why I have tried to start something going with Rapido but Jason hasn't taken the bait yet.Nothing emanating from Merseyside either but maybe no news is ultimately good news .Hattons recent commissions are impressive so we can only hope.I like the 14/58XX,despite what some web gurus post and it is entirely logical that an autocoach should be produced to run with them

[Miss Prism]

A potential bone of contention for an 'inter-war autocoach' is that the end windows on the non-driving end were plated over in the mid-1930s. All the A30s for example had been modified by 1936 iirc (as is portrayed by the Airfix/Hornby).

[The Stationmaster]

A potential bone of contention for an 'inter-war autocoach' is that the end windows on the non-driving end were plated over in the mid-1930s. All the A30s for example had been modified by 1936 iirc (as is portrayed by the Airfix/Hornby).

 

It can probably be accommodated using slides in the tooling but that will inevitably increase the tooling cost and no doubt the end retail price.   So not impossible to do but I bet anyone who goes ahead with a new trailer will look very much at which periods sell and which periods don't (assuming they have sufficient information in that respect) and I think we might be able to guess what that means.

[tomparryharry]

I'd suggest that anyone who brings the product to the model railway market place, should support the intended product with an armful of photos, drawings, and then some even more photographs & drawings. That way, when the doom merchants, neer-sayers (and the lady who does the fruit & veg at Tescos)get to chuck in their 2 pen'worth, there is evidence to back up the discussion.

 

Researchers tend to be a bit brassed off. After all, they have access to some of the best historical data in the world. Add to that, they can have access to prime source material, that most of the our readership would give their eye teeth for. By the time a company commits funds to a product, it will have been checked, double checked, scrutinised, commented, costed, made in an health & safety environment, so "Little Johnny" can't be harmed when the product remains basically safe, whilst thrown out of an upstairs window. And that, is before it gets productionised, where the process starts all over again. It'll get colourised, assembled, package exercises, because, believe me, it all matters. The product has to pass all of those, and criteria I've probably forgotten about.

 

Then, the litmus test. Some poor Herbert draws the short straw, and announces a Great Western model product to the world. I pity that poor soul. They will have even more scrutiny, comment, critism, rebuttal,question,anecdotal evidence than ever before. The model will be pored over, dissected, inferred, rebutted, re-questioned, and appraised. The great majority will be able to pass judgement whilst assuming an unwarranted mantle of great authority. Very few will ever get to see the high resolution camera work that gets done, to pick up any defects. Most viewers here will get to see the product in front on a computer screen, about 14 inches across. No, I pity that poor soul.

 

Little wonder, therefore, that working on a possible Great Western model is a poison chalice. Pity the researchers as well..... Oh! I forgot! Someone has asked:- "Can we have it cheaper? I'm not paying that much!"

 

Here endeth the rant. I'm going back to my daytime job, shoving the genie into the bottle.

 

Ian

Edited July 29, 2017 by tomparryharry

[gwrrob]

.Then, the litmus test. Some poor Herbert draws the short straw, and announces a Great Western model product to the world. I pity that poor soul. They will have even more scrutiny, comment, critism, rebuttal,question,anecdotal evidence than ever before. The model will be pored over, dissected, inferred, rebutted, re-questioned, and appraised. The great majority will be able to pass judgement whilst assuming an unwarranted mantle of great authority. Very few will ever get to see the high resolution camera work that gets done, to pick up any defects. Most viewers here will get to see the product in front on a computer screen, about 14 inches across. No, I pity that poor soul.

 

 

Ian

 

I wouldn't call it drawing the short straw in modelling God's Wonderful and I'm always happy , along with many others on here to help get a better product to the market. Sometimes manufacturers don't have all the research material available. I don't pity them at all , I would relish it as a job.

[cctransuk]

Researchers tend to be a bit brassed off. After all, they have access to some of the best historical data in the world. Add to that, they can have access to prime source material, that most of the our readership would give their eye teeth for. By the time a company commits funds to a product, it will have been checked, double checked, scrutinised, commented, costed, made in an health & safety environment, so "Little Johnny" can't be harmed when the product remains basically safe, whilst thrown out of an upstairs window. And that, is before it gets productionised, where the process starts all over again. It'll get colourised, assembled, package exercises, because, believe me, it all matters. The product has to pass all of those, and criteria I've probably forgotten about.

 

One would certainly hope so - but, from the evidence of far too many models recent and past, that access to "some of the best historical data in the world" is often not being utilised. Either that, or it is not being translated into the finished model. Remember, time is money when you are employing researchers and designers.

 

Any well managed project will have a finite budget for the process leading up to cutting metal; the information may be out there somewhere, but if it can't be located fairly quickly it may as well not exist.

 

It's not surprising that the armchair critics can find fault in new models - many have had a lifetime of leisure time to accumulate the most minute details, whereas the researcher / designer has a timescale limited by available finance.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited July 29, 2017 by cctransuk

[Miss Prism]

And yet look at Hornby's AA15 Toad - a very good EP (on quite a difficult subject), they listened to comments, took them on board, did the mods, and the result was excellent. And all in record time.

[The Johnster]

Perhaps more could be achieved for less and with less overburden of investment and tied capital by the availability of overlays and replacement bogies to go on/under the Hornby or Bachmann trailers already available.  Auto trailers of the same overall chassis length differeed little over many years and a good variety of 56'6" trailers could be produced this way, with overlays for the panelled sidees, ends, and the option for windows in the brake end, and retrofit bogies of the various types required, perhaps in cast whitemetal, or possibly overlay frames to go on top of the 9' Colletts currently suppllied (apparently incorrect for the Hornby model as they should have tiebars).

 

I'd be reasonably happy to pay about £40 for a well produced kit of such parts.

Edited July 29, 2017 by The Johnster

[rue_d_etropal]

I keep an eye on this type of thread. Apart from wondering why some everything to be delivered on a plate. That time has gone. Prices have gone up. develipment costa have rocketed, but that has nicely left the door open for alternatives to either r2r or fancy kit, namely 3D printing. As I had already designed a R type steam railmotor, it made sence to give it a trailer, a type U auto trailer. Knocked one up today, needs a few small changes(the gong is a bit small I think, but I could only judge it from photos as it is not on the drawings).

[The Johnster]

That's a pretty good basic trailer, Simon, though I agree about the bell; perhaps better to retrofit this.  If I could find evidence of South Wales use, especially the Bridgend valleys, I'd be very interested in buying a print, but as it is you have, sadly, missed my area of interest; I'm impressed, thought!

[rue_d_etropal]

I am sure I have seen a drawing of the gong somewhere. I have drawings for most of the GWR stock. I chose this one as it is the one to run with the preserved steam railmotor. Most of the early ones should be similar, either based on the long or short railmotors(i have designs for both). The earlier flat sided ones would need a new design, but I will eventually get to those.