Electrification - Back to Square One

[TheSignalEngineer]

A week is a long time in politics....

 

July 20th: diesel trains are good - so good in fact that we are cancelling lots of railway electrification

July 26th: diesel road vehicles are bad - so bad in fact that we are banning sales of new ones from 2040 and electric is the future

 

You couldn't make it up!

They had to cancel rail electrification to make enough power available for all of the electric road vehicles. Think I am going to invest on companies making cables for the National Grid. It will need a lot more capacity unless we generate it all at home.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The Telegraph is reporting that 10 new power stations will need to be built to provide the electricity. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/25/new-diesel-petrol-cars-banned-uk-roads-2040-government-unveils/

[Joseph_Pestell]

it's a Grade I listed building & a UNESCO World Heritage Site so it has to be maintained... of course, if it can wait until HS2 is built, Parliament can be based elsewhere in the country and MP's will have a quick method to get back to London for business meetings

 

God knows why! It's a truly awful building (excluding the older, more genuine Westminster Hall).

 

But given that it has to be maintained, I still think that Parliament should move out and let it be paid for by tourists.

[Suzie]

23 years to get everyone's house connected to 3-phase so we can charge up all the cars parked on the drive with a 22KW charger. What - you have to park half a mile down the street? You live in a flat?

 

The infrastructure cost of providing power to 25 000 000 charging points will make electrifying the railway look like chicken feed.  

[jjb1970]

The Telegraph is reporting that 10 new power stations will need to be built to provide the electricity. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/25/new-diesel-petrol-cars-banned-uk-roads-2040-government-unveils/

 

That assumes that we will still be reliant on large centralised power generation.

[lmsforever]

Electric cars and vans but what about HGV,s or do the government think that goods arrive by thin air even moving them by train you still have to get them to shops etc.As  to charging points this will be the  usual cock up as will the provision of power stations all the locals will protest as they will be nuclear and who will build them?Maybe the railways will all be electrified by then but don't hold your breath.

[chrisf]

That assumes that we will still be reliant on large centralised power generation.

 

I think we will all be issued with exercise bikes wired up to the grid.

 

Chris

[number6]

The temptation to wade into this how to charge electric vehicles in 2040 discussion is great.

I can resist. No I can't! 

 

All I would say is have a drive in one - then ask yourself why all cars, lorries, buses and trains aren't lekky powered it is one way to reignite ones love affair with the car. Sorry but using 'facts' from the Telegraph doesn't really advance the case against. In 23 years one has to assume that power generation, methods of storage, delivery and the cost will all have changed out of recognition to today. The current power for vehicles is oil and in 23 years time the extraction, storage and delivery of that fuel will be the same if it doesn't first run out, kill ecosystems, heat up the planet or cost more than clean, cheap and renewable forms of energy.

[Mark Saunders]

The temptation to wade into this how to charge electric vehicles in 2040 discussion is great.

I can resist. No I can't! 

 

All I would say is have a drive in one - then ask yourself why all cars, lorries, buses and trains aren't lekky powered it is one way to reignite ones love affair with the car. Sorry but using 'facts' from the Telegraph doesn't really advance the case against. In 23 years one has to assume that power generation, methods of storage, delivery and the cost will all have changed out of recognition to today. The current power for vehicles is oil and in 23 years time the extraction, storage and delivery of that fuel will be the same if it doesn't first run out, kill ecosystems, heat up the planet or cost more than clean, cheap and renewable forms of energy.

 

Is this like nuclear produced electricity that will be so cheap that it will not be worth metering!

[number6]

Is this like nuclear produced electricity that will be so cheap that it will not be worth metering!

 

You can't mean that Chinese French stuff they are brewing up in Somerset?

Erm... I did say clean, cheap and renewable... !

[Mark Saunders]

You can't mean that Chinese French stuff they are brewing up in Somerset?

Erm... I did say clean, cheap and renewable... !

 

No this is the stuff that was promised in the 1950's!

[The Johnster]

No this is the stuff that was promised in the 1950's!

 

Wasn't going to be worth the cost of printing and posting the bills.

[ess1uk]

I think we will all be issued with exercise bikes wired up to the grid.

 

Chris

Obesity problem solved

[rodent279]

I suspect as usual this will turn out to be an aspiration, which will be quietly dropped at a convenient moment. 23 years is long enough for most of the current crop of lying scheming manipulative b@$*@**$ to be retired and/or pushing up daisies.

[Joseph_Pestell]

At the current rate of technological change, electric cars will be obsolete by 2040.

[Siberian Snooper]

At the current rate of technological change, electric cars will be obsolete by 2040.

 

So it's back to the 'oss n cart!!

[Zomboid]

Really? Cars from 1994 aren't fundamentally any different from what we have now. The first Prius was shown as a concept in 1995 and available to buy in Japan in 1997. The pace of change over the last 23 years isn't really that great. What has really developed over that time is the automotive diesel engine, but that has only really evolved, the principles haven't changed.

Maybe batteries will come along massively in that time, but if the pace of the last 23 years is anything to go by...

[scouser]

I have a horrible vision of all of the streets set up like a dodgem car ride.

[number6]

My cousin worked for Ford in Germany developing 2 stroke engines - projects all now cancelled - future development of 4 cylinder engines in doubt. Volvo not supplying petrol or diesel cars soon. Renault Nissan getting lots of practice with Zoe and the Leaf. The pace of change is going to be different now to what it was 23 years ago.

 

The biggest issue is that there is money to be made in EVs and their infrastructure and not much more to be made in fossil fuels. That is the motivator now not 'green issues' - that is a byproduct. The whole new network of how and where to pay for power, the delivery of EV charge and the software, hardware and service of all those things will have the savvy companies out there scrambling over each other to deliver it to customers. Meanwhile oil companies can't offer anything different and nothing anywhere near as convenient as EV - petrol pump in your garden sir?! Oh: and your children won't be poisoned on their way to school.

[Suzie]

There was a time not so long ago when petrol stations were literally that - you had to find one of the few places with a diesel pump (and it would be only one) to fill a diesel car up. Availability was less than LPG is today. There would typically only be one suitable filling station in a town and you needed to know where it was. Things have moved on and Diesel pumps are available universally, hopefully the same will happen with charging facilities, but you cannot just pop into a filling station and fill up instantly, charging takes time.

 

Charging of trains of course will be a lot easier. There is no need to stop. Charging under the wires is possible with a bit of beefing up of the supply, and the batteries will only be useful for a short run away from the wires. With the current energy density of batteries being about 100Kg of battery being roughly equivalent to a gallon of Diesel I think battery technology will have to improve a bit to be able to fit batteries to trains for anything more than a short run off the grid. Seeing the size of the 'fuel tank' of a bi-mode increasing in weight 20x might be a problem, or it might not be if frequent charging is available.

 

How much battery can you add to a 4-car EMU? If you can increase the weight of the trailer cars (30t) to match the weight of a motor car (60t) that makes for 90t of batteries that can be accommodated under the floor of the trailer cars and that approximately equates to 900 gallons of Diesel-but at the cost of the weight of a 7-car set probably requiring an extra motor car or bigger motors. Of course the sums are not that simple - anyone handy with simultaneous equations?

 

How far would a 6-car DMU (170 for example) go on 900 gallons? Probably about 150 miles, so 150 miles range is useful - might even be excessive for a bimode.

 

Would a 6-car DMU have a 900 gallon tank? more like 2500 gallons...

 

Even a partial electric network with battery bi-mode will need 90%+ coverage of electrification.

[jonathan452]

There was a time not so long ago when petrol stations were literally that - you had to find one of the few places with a diesel pump (and it would be only one) to fill a diesel car up. Availability was less than LPG is today. There would typically only be one suitable filling station in a town and you needed to know where it was. Things have moved on and Diesel pumps are available universally, hopefully the same will happen with charging facilities, but you cannot just pop into a filling station and fill up instantly, charging takes time.

 

Charging of trains of course will be a lot easier. There is no need to stop. Charging under the wires is possible with a bit of beefing up of the supply, and the batteries will only be useful for a short run away from the wires. With the current energy density of batteries being about 100Kg of battery being roughly equivalent to a gallon of Diesel I think battery technology will have to improve a bit to be able to fit batteries to trains for anything more than a short run off the grid. Seeing the size of the 'fuel tank' of a bi-mode increasing in weight 20x might be a problem, or it might not be if frequent charging is available.

 

How much battery can you add to a 4-car EMU? If you can increase the weight of the trailer cars (30t) to match the weight of a motor car (60t) that makes for 90t of batteries that can be accommodated under the floor of the trailer cars and that approximately equates to 900 gallons of Diesel-but at the cost of the weight of a 7-car set probably requiring an extra motor car or bigger motors. Of course the sums are not that simple - anyone handy with simultaneous equations?

 

How far would a 6-car DMU (170 for example) go on 900 gallons? Probably about 150 miles, so 150 miles range is useful - might even be excessive for a bimode.

 

Would a 6-car DMU have a 900 gallon tank? more like 2500 gallons...

 

Even a partial electric network with battery bi-mode will need 90%+ coverage of electrification.

But enough to get to Puke................

 

Battery trains to be approved for Pukekohe - https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2017/07/24/battery-trains-approved-pukekohe/

[ejstubbs]

My cousin worked for Ford in Germany developing 2 stroke engines - projects all now cancelled

 

2-strokes have been effectively dead as an automotive technology for many, many years, due to being unable to pass emissions regulations.

 

Volvo not supplying petrol or diesel cars soon.

 

They've said that all their cars will be electric or hybrid from 2019 - so some will still have an IC engine in them.

 

Meanwhile oil companies can't offer anything ... anywhere near as convenient as EV

 

As Suzie pointed out, EV that need to be parked to recharge are still a major inconvenience for journeys outwith the range of a single charge.  No-one seems to be doing much about swappable battery packs, which was at one time being suggested as the way to fix that problem.  On the positive side, that could encourage more people to use more suitable means of travel, such as railways, for more long journeys, with eg shared use autonomous EVs to take you from the station to your final destination.  Certainly none of what are currently perceived to be barriers to the widespread adoption of electric motive power should be insoluble, but they may require a major shift in people's expectations as to how they go about travelling, and I suspect that the flash car on the drive may cease to be much of a status symbol in the foreseeable future.

Edited July 27, 2017 by ejstubbs

[Titan]

There was a time not so long ago when petrol stations were literally that - you had to find one of the few places with a diesel pump (and it would be only one) to fill a diesel car up. Availability was less than LPG is today. There would typically only be one suitable filling station in a town and you needed to know where it was. Things have moved on and Diesel pumps are available universally, hopefully the same will happen with charging facilities, but you cannot just pop into a filling station and fill up instantly, charging takes time.

 

Charging of trains of course will be a lot easier. There is no need to stop. Charging under the wires is possible with a bit of beefing up of the supply, and the batteries will only be useful for a short run away from the wires. With the current energy density of batteries being about 100Kg of battery being roughly equivalent to a gallon of Diesel I think battery technology will have to improve a bit to be able to fit batteries to trains for anything more than a short run off the grid. Seeing the size of the 'fuel tank' of a bi-mode increasing in weight 20x might be a problem, or it might not be if frequent charging is available.

 

How much battery can you add to a 4-car EMU? If you can increase the weight of the trailer cars (30t) to match the weight of a motor car (60t) that makes for 90t of batteries that can be accommodated under the floor of the trailer cars and that approximately equates to 900 gallons of Diesel-but at the cost of the weight of a 7-car set probably requiring an extra motor car or bigger motors. Of course the sums are not that simple - anyone handy with simultaneous equations?

 

How far would a 6-car DMU (170 for example) go on 900 gallons? Probably about 150 miles, so 150 miles range is useful - might even be excessive for a bimode.

 

Would a 6-car DMU have a 900 gallon tank? more like 2500 gallons...

 

Even a partial electric network with battery bi-mode will need 90%+ coverage of electrification.

 

Seeing as a Deltic can haul 16 mk1's from Kings Cross to Aberdeen on under 900 gallons I suspect your guesses are way out... 

[Dagworth]

Seeing as a Deltic can haul 16 mk1's from Kings Cross to Aberdeen on under 900 gallons I suspect your guesses are way out... 

"normal" fuel consumption was reckoned as a gallon a mile on average for most diesel locos when I was at Ipswich in the 80s. Ok, we didn't have Deltics but that was how we reckoned it for our locos

 

Andi

[Suzie]

Seeing as a Deltic can haul 16 mk1's from Kings Cross to Aberdeen on under 900 gallons I suspect your guesses are way out... 

 

Quite probably, accurate fuel consumption information is hard to find. I tried to base my figures on ~3mpg/60t coach so probably should be 450 miles rather than 150 on 900 gallons. The Deltic+16 is clearly doing better than that since it has the weight of a deltic and four coaches extra load.