Imaginary Railways

[Zomboid]

Go all in, build a Devon version of the Forth bridge

[KeithMacdonald]

Your wish is my command.

 

Just been looking through a List of UK Railway Bridges. The most obvious local bridges that might have served as a model (sic) are the viaducts at Calstock and Cannington, both made of concrete. But both have relatively narrow spans. Perhaps not best for the deep river mouth at Exmouth?

 

Also, what kind of large bridges would the US Army Engineers been most familiar with, and confident in building themselves?  Maybe a US-style Pratt Truss railway bridge like this Glenwood Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Bridge?

https://structurae.net/en/structures/glenwood-baltimore-ohio-railroad-bridge

 

 

[The Johnster]

A Barmouth style bridge would not cut the mustard across the mouth of the Exe, which is much deeper than the Mawddach which is shallow, indeed dries out at low tide, for most of the length of the bridge, there is a narrow deep(ish) channel towards the northern bank, which is where the swingbridge section of the bridge is situated.  Which segues neatly into another issue; an Exe estuary bridge would need a swing or lifting section as there is coastal shipping and fishing traffic to Exeter to be catered for.  Being the bridge operator stuck out hundreds of yards in the middle where the channel at high tide in a southesterly gale, or in a fog would be, um, interesting...

[KeithMacdonald]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

an Exe estuary bridge would need a swing or lifting section as there is coastal shipping and fishing traffic to Exeter to be catered for

 

Yes, and that reminds me, Exmouth Docks itself used to have a small swinging footbridge that was opened for the freighters to access the docks. Not sure what it's got now (now that it's a marina). But certainly smaller than might be needed on a full-blown bridge across the estuary.

 

With the docks branch of the railway already in place, would that be a plausible place to have the Exmouth end of the "new" bridge, with a swinging section on the Exmouth side?

 

[RLBH]

An obvious missing route occurred to me recently: seemingly the only valley in the whole of South Wales that doesn't have a railway up it is the Usk Valley above Abergavenny. Such a route might well have been promoted to give the GWR access to Brecon and to the Mid-Wales Railway, competing with the Brecon & Merthyr. It would also serve Crickhowell en route, and no doubt a number of smaller places.

[The Johnster]

I’ve already suggested this as part of my Abergavenny-Brecon-Landovery-Landeilo route.  I envisaged it as single line with passing places running on the southern bank of the Usk, with a new station at Brecon (Cardiff Road) where it crossed the A470, already gaining height to keep gradients to reasonable figures for the summit, Glasfynydd Tunnel.  The Llandovery station would be above the town as well  (think Oakhamton).  Blue route and a portion of the Cathedrals serving Brecon.  
 

Traffic, apart from local, would be troop specials for Crickhowell, Dering Lines, and the Sennybridge Ranges, through oil trains from Milford Haven and Pembroke Dock to the West Midlands, excursions from there to Tenby in Summer, possibly anthracite.  I am taken by the image of double headed 43xx blowing holes in the sky with heavy loaded trains of oil tanks on through Halfway on the climb to Glasfynydd. 
 

There might have been an auto shuttle on a link branch between the Brecon stations, and a branch at Tretower to connect with the Mid Wales at Talgarth.  Crickhowell, Brecon, and Sennybridge need long platforms to cope with the military traffic.  

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I’ve already suggested this as part of my Abergavenny-Brecon-Landovery-Landeilo route.  I envisaged it as single line with passing places running on the southern bank of the Usk, with a new station at Brecon (Cardiff Road) where it crossed the A470, already gaining height to keep gradients to reasonable figures for the summit, Glasfynydd Tunnel.  The Llandovery station would be above the town as well  (think Oakhamton).  Blue route and a portion of the Cathedrals serving Brecon.  
 

Traffic, apart from local, would be troop specials for Crickhowell, Dering Lines, and the Sennybridge Ranges, through oil trains from Milford Haven and Pembroke Dock to the West Midlands, excursions from there to Tenby in Summer, possibly anthracite.  I am taken by the image of double headed 43xx blowing holes in the sky with heavy loaded trains of oil tanks on through Halfway on the climb to Glasfynydd. 
 

There might have been an auto shuttle on a link branch between the Brecon stations, and a branch at Tretower to connect with the Mid Wales at Talgarth.  Crickhowell, Brecon, and Sennybridge need long platforms to cope with the military traffic.  

I remember you proposing this before and might have to pinch it for a layout in future.

 

Re: oil traffic, unfortunately the first Pembrokeshire oil refinery (Esso) didn't open until 1960, the second in 1964 (which wasn't rail connected but operating the P&T branch would have been interesting if it had) so just before the end of steam, you wouldn't have steam on oil trains for very long and it was after the Moguls had all been withdrawn I think.  However, you could extend your alternative history by having the Anglo-Persian Oil Company build its refinery near Manorowen (at the top of the bank outside Fishguard) as was proposed at one stage, instead of at Llandarcy, as came to pass.

[The Johnster]

There was a large oil storage facility at Pembroke Dock before the 60s; it was bombed during the war.  The area’s connection with the industry goes back 3 centuries to the founding of the town of Milford Haven as a base for the American whaling industry and the processing of whale oil.  
 

The 60s saw the development of refineries in addition to the tank farm, and the building of jetties out into the deeper water at the centre of the Haven to accommodate larger tankers; some of these ships were very big indeed.   

[RJS1977]

Looking at Google maps for the Peak District earlier, I noticed a couple of potential routes for a link between the Midland 'Peak' Main Line and the Hope Valley line.

 

The most obvious route - straight up the Derwent from Rowsley to Grisedale - would be unlikely to be built owing to opposition from the Duke of Devonshire (the line would have passed right in front of Chatsworth House - though what a backdrop that would have made!) but an alternative route from Bakewell via Hassop could have worked as a diversion both for the Peak line and the main line to Sheffield.  

[scots region]

3 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

Looking at Google maps for the Peak District earlier, I noticed a couple of potential routes for a link between the Midland 'Peak' Main Line and the Hope Valley line.

 

The most obvious route - straight up the Derwent from Rowsley to Grisedale - would be unlikely to be built owing to opposition from the Duke of Devonshire (the line would have passed right in front of Chatsworth House - though what a backdrop that would have made!) but an alternative route from Bakewell via Hassop could have worked as a diversion both for the Peak line and the main line to Sheffield.  

 

I've been thinking of a scenario, that might help, but its a bit, controversial and potentially tasteless given recent events. So I'll only tell if you really want me to. 

[DenysW]

Although this thread is mostly about never-were branchlines, what if ...

 

The Midland Counties Railway rejects Hudson's offer to fuse with the Birmingham & Derby and the North Midland Railway to form the Midland Railway, and instead arranges to be included in with the merger that actually produced LNWR, presumably producing the London Midland and Northern Railway (LMNR). It could/would have extended northwards from the (modern) location that is East Midlands Parkway to Sheffield to join up with and merge with the MS&LR, eliminating the need for the Great Central. Derby still significant but not dominant. Nottingham (to its fury) still a branchline.

 

Grouping would then presumably put L&Y in with LNER, as there would have been no need for the hasty pre-Grouping merger with LNWR. No Settle & Carlisle line, as that arose from the Midland's inability to play nice with any of its neighbours, but especially LNWR.

 

No Small Engines policy as the remaining Midlands merger would have faced substantially different problems.

 

[whart57]

Let's kick this thread into life again ........

 

One thing I've often thought about as a starting point for various branch line ideas is working through the implications of the South Eastern Railway having been more proactive regarding the East Kent Railway and had made serious moves to absorb it rather than let it expand into a serious rival, namely the LCDR.

 

The first implication would have been that the Kent Coast line wouldn't have been built. The SER already had adequate lines to Ramsgate and Margate, and once the Sevenoaks cut off had been built - which the SER would probably have done just to get its expresses clear of the line shared with the LBSCR to Redhill - there would have been no advantage striking out across North Kent from Strood to shave a couple of miles off the distance to Thanet.

 

However that still left Herne Bay, a clear target of a branch from Canterbury as numerous plans submitted to Parliament during the 19th century demonstrate. The existence of the KCR made the economics of a branch line to Herne Bay pretty iffy, but if there were no KCR then that changes. There could have been a standard branch line from Sturry or a line from South Street on the Canterbury and Whitstable. Both were proposed at some point.

 

More interestingly might have been the electric tramway proposed in the early 1900s. As Herne Bay got at least some of its heavy stuff - i.e. coal - from barges on the beach, and no KCR meant the business case for a small harbour changes as well, the freight traffic would be a lot less and would be more like parcels traffic. Electric tramcars are better at gradients than steam engines so the obstacles caused by the hills lying across the route would be less problematic. Tramcars like this Kidderminster and Stourport one pulling a trailer (as the K&S originally did) would handle the passenger traffic

 

 

Freight in parcels cars like this one, again with one or two trailers

 

 

I'll look at other implications of the SER throttling the LCDR at birth in another post

[whart57]

To continue in this vein, if the SER were to have taken over the nascent East Kent Railway then they probably would have extended it in the Canterbury direction via Selling as the LCDR did, but instead of striking on towards Dover the line would most likely have terminated at Canterbury West. Though the name would have been just simple Canterbury. There was no need for the SER to plough through the North Downs to get from Canterbury to Dover so that wouldn't have been built. Nor would the Elham Valley line to Folkestone as that was 90% railway politics and only 10% business sense.

 

However that would leave a largish area without rail communication, and the Kent coalfield was underneath it. That offers another imaginary railway scenario, namely a less cash-strapped and minimalist East Kent light railway to serve the collieries. With no LCDR line from Canterbury to Dover, Snowdown colliery would also have required a light railway connection. The connection from Tilmanstone would also have gone the other way towards Deal and therefore the light railway might have picked up the traffic from Betteshanger as well. With three viable collieries instead of just one to serve the EKLR would have been a different railway. One that might have had a job for engines like this:

 

 

Or this:

 

 

 

[Northmoor]

This @whart57is why I find Imaginary Railways more interesting than just Imaginary Locomotives.  The latter would have to exist for a reason; as you've described, usually an imaginary or planned-but-not-built railway would have been built instead of something else, not in addition to it, so you have to work out what happens to the place now bypassed.

 

My own favourite "What-if?" is Mathry, which instead of a very small village would have become a small town, had Brunel been able to built his port for Ireland at Abermawr instead of Fishguard (actually Goodwick).  This would have happened had the Irish Potato Famine not intervened and there are about three million reasons why that would have been preferable.  As well as Fishguard Harbour not being built, the GWR would never have built a railway to Neyland, most of the North Pembrokeshire & Fishguard Railway would never have been built - as there was no source of traffic for it to connect to - and the branch to Haverfordwest and Milford Haven would have probably remained single track.  However, it would have enabled the city of St. Davids to join the railway map, as the branch from Mathry would have been a third shorter than otherwise necessary.

[whart57]

I see from other responses that some like the idea of a self-contained imaginary island railway. I've had a few thoughts along those lines, both with real islands and with completely imaginary ones. I'll start with a real one.

 

In the South West of the Netherlands is the province of Zeeland. Zeeland is made up of the islands in the delta formed by the rivers Rhine, Maas (Meuse) and Scheldt. Well not all of them, a couple are part of the province of South Holland. Most of the islands got rail connections to them or across them in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. A main line was built in the 1860s from Bergen op Zoom on the mainland to Goes, Middelburg and Vlissingen (Flushing) which required the laying of dams over two tidal estuaries. As an aside it was this line we modelled - complete with flooding - in episode 2:4 of The Great Model Railway Challenge.

 

On other islands the Rotterdam Tramway company (a steam tramway company running lines in the countryside, nothing to do with the city trams of Rotterdam) laid 3'6" gauge roadside tramways connecting the ferry harbours and the island interiors. It was quite an extensive network that lasted till the 1960s and still runs in preserved form from the seaside resort of Port Zelande.

 

One island missed out, North Beveland.

 

 

On the modern map North Beveland looks well connected. However the dam at the left and the bridges to the north and south on the right of the map weren't built until the 1960s and the road across the tidal barrier heading north wasn't built until the 1990s. An eighteenth century map of North Beveland shows a much more fractured situation

 

 

The truth is that North Beveland was simply too poor and too sparsely populated for anyone to be interested in building a railway, or even a tramway, across it. It hadn't always been so, it had been quite rich in medieval times but the island was completely wiped out in two floods in the 1530s. A start was made on recovering the island in the seventeenth century but it never reached its former wealth.

 

So my imaginary railway has as its premise that either the Dutch government or the Zeeland provincial government felt North Beveland needed the economic boost of a railway. It would be a roadside tramway, this being the norm in other poorer areas such as Drenthe, and would likely be narrow gauge. The legislation covering tramways specified three gauges, standard gauge, "Cape" gauge (3'6" though metre gauge was also used) and 76cm gauge (aka 2'6", and some lines were actually 75cm).

 

Obviously anything over 76cm gauge was overkill so that would be the obvious choice. There was a 75cm gauge line not that far away on South Beveland which gives an idea of the sort of thing it might look like.

 

 

Something like that would make a nice layout in HOe or On16.5. The stock pictured was provided by Decauville so information does exist.

 

But my thinking went further. What if the provincial authorities had been swayed, perhaps by the salesmen from Decauville, to choose 60cm gauge. The first line, which I would have connecting the ferry harbour of Kortgene with the largest inland settlement of Wissekerke would use Decauville equipment, including, possibly, an 0-4-4-0T Mallet that Decauville built for the heavy beet traffic that would provide the heaviest freight. That line opens c1910.

 

Then after WW1 the availability of all that war surplus 60cm gauge equipment spurs an extension to Kamperland and possibly a branch to Colijnsplaat on the north coast of the island and Hunslets and Baldwins take their place on the loco roster

[rockershovel]

My interest on modelling was revived by the idea of a generic "oilfield" line  combining various things which seem to be similar wherever you go.

 

Period would be somewhere between 1945 and 1965. 

 

Topography would be the semi-arid plain at the foot of harsh, eroded scarp. Main traffic would be oil tankers and pipe trains, with a passenger schedule tacked on for crew changes, camp supplies etc

 

Traction would be steam, mostly US outline. Gauge 3' or metre. 

 

At some point I'll retire and make a serious start on this...

[john new]

On 01/11/2021 at 20:15, DenysW said:

.... snip ....

 

Grouping would then presumably put L&Y in with LNER, as there would have been no need for the hasty pre-Grouping merger with LNWR. No Settle & Carlisle line, as that arose from the Midland's inability to play nice with any of its neighbours, but especially LNWR.

.... snip ...

 

My understanding re the S&C is that it was launched as a scheme to bully the other routes into changing their minds and playing nice. That worked  until the big but came along ....  Having promised the communities on the S&Cs proposed route a railway they were not going to allow abandonment and the Midland ended up having to build it after all. It is a long time since I read my Midland Railway North of Leeds history but the above is the gist of it.

 

As an aside - IIRC the Midland also got well stuffed with their attempt at the cross-Bradford main line as it would have taken all the ground water away from many of the woollen mills north and east of Thornhill Junction (I think it was Thornhill). The plans for the cross-Bradford viaduct part of the link were drawn and were displayed many years ago on a wall in the Bradford Met Cncl offices. Whether they still are I can't say, not been in for a meeting in several years now.

Edited January 5, 2022 by john new

[DenysW]

Quote

John New said : 

My understanding re the S&C is that it was launched as a scheme to bully the other routes into changing their minds and playing nice. That worked  until the big but came along ....  Having promised the communities on the S&Cs proposed route a railway they were not going to allow abandonment and the Midland ended up having to build it after all. It is a long time since I read my Midland Railway North of Leeds history but the above is the gist of it.

The Settle and Carlisle kerfuffle was 30-40 years after the formation (driven by Hudson and Stephenson as well as competition factors) of the Midland. If Midland Counties joins the LNWR consortium that was coalescing only very slightly later (a) Midland Counties does not need an alternative to the Leicester/Rugby/London route and carries on going into Euston (b) Midland Counties/LNWR - if it extends northwards rapidly in the East Midlands from Trent Junction - does not need an alternative route to Carlisle separate from the rest of LNWR and would not have pushed a Settle route (c) North Midland + Birmingham & Derby do not have a burning need to get to London other than via the London & Birmingham route, providing LNWR played nice with them. I suspect it might have finished with an LNWR Sheffield/Leeds route from Trent Junction to avoid the North Midland and steal one of 'their' industrial centres.

 

The fate of the North Midland and the Birmingham & Derby looks to be a precursor of Cross Country, and to join up with the Birmingham & Gloucester Railway (this happened with the Midland) and/or to join the Midland Counties - parliament permitting - in fleeing Hudson into LNWR.

 

Hudson left the Midland as a director once they found he'd been acting against their interests in support of some of his other railway directorships, and were pursuing him through the court well after he'd fled debt into exile. Bad losers.

[john new]

The problem of counterfactual history as a genre is always the stripping out of the actual (what did get done) and blending it with the postulated alternative reality.

 

For example with @DenysW’s version we are left to establish which company (actual or fictitious)  without the Midland Railway’s existence would have become the railway serving the Aire Valley taking the freight off the already established Leeds & Liverpool canal corridor. Also how would freight and pax have moved north and  west towards Scotland out of the prosperous West Riding industrial belt?

[brack]

10 hours ago, whart57 said:

choose 60cm gauge. The first line, which I would have connecting the ferry harbour of Kortgene with the largest inland settlement of Wissekerke would use Decauville equipment, including, possibly, an 0-4-4-0T Mallet that Decauville built for the heavy beet traffic that would provide the heaviest freight

Doesn't need to be 60cm to get decauville mallets.

 

The Nesttun-Osbanen in norway was 750mm, but kitted out with 3 standard 0440t decauville mallets (built by Tubize) and a 042t. Exactly the same designs as the french 60cm tramways, but with nicer cabs.

 

 

 

The strange thing was it was planned as 60cm gauge, and they started building in 1891 but after a year of construction in 1892 they decided to widen the gauge to 750mm, but then bought a load of stock to designs usually supplied to 60cm!

 

The locos weren't built until 1893, so it wasn't as if they changed their gauge mid building either.

 

Not that they were very careful with their mallets mind you...

 

 

 

Somehow all 3 survived til the line closed in 1935!

Edited January 5, 2022 by brack

[scots region]

I suppose I might add my own idea for the Scottish Central Railway, which isn't actually an imaginary railway, it even still exists, its the Perth to Stirling Line. Instead its an Imaginary Railway (company). Basically the SCR was planning on merging with the Edinburgh and Glasgow railway, to gain eventual access to, well I'll let you find out for yourselves. The merger was avoided in our time due to, its a little unclear, the E&GR threw a hissy fit over some timetabling, the SCR was swallowed by the Caledonian and the E&GR when to the North British, the rest is as they say. So the SCR in my mind, keeps things cushy with the E&GR, or someone falls off a horse at an impromptu moment. The merger goes ahead, the SCR builds its own terminus in Glasgow, snaps up the NBR (somehow) while the Caledonian goes the wrong way north and stays stuck on the West Coast. 

 

Thoughts?   

[whart57]

18 hours ago, brack said:

Doesn't need to be 60cm to get decauville mallets.

 

The Nesttun-Osbanen in norway was 750mm, but kitted out with 3 standard 0440t decauville mallets (built by Tubize) and a 042t. Exactly the same designs as the french 60cm tramways, but with nicer cabs.

 

 

I have a drawing of the Decauville Mallets used at the Paris Exhibition of 1889. They were sold on to a line serving Helsingborg in Sweden. Unfortunately the book I have is in Swedish and I haven't been motivated to plough through it yet.

 

[brack]

2 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

I have a drawing of the Decauville Mallets used at the Paris Exhibition of 1889. They were sold on to a line serving Helsingborg in Sweden. Unfortunately the book I have is in Swedish and I haven't been motivated to plough through it yet.

 

I'd heartily recommend a trip to mariefred to see the survivor on the Oslj, and all their other stock. Then a trip back along the lake to stockholm on the steamer...

 

I haven't been for 10 years.

[john new]

Using a mix of Thomas Hardy’s books and actuality I quite like the idea of the LSWR, rather than the GWR, building a line from Sheraton Abbas (Sherborne) via Chalke Newton (Maiden Newton) to Port Bredy (Bridport & West Bay). An alternative up from Bridport through the Bredy’s to Casterbridge (Dorchester) also good alternative. With the first one a junction of the LSWR and GWR at Chalke Newton can also be postulated.

 

The above reverses the actual pre-group ownership of the originally independent Bridport Railway from GW to LSWR and theoretically allows services to/from the Midlands via Bath as well as Waterloo over the LSWR. One regular freight working to postulate military rope traffic from Bridport, rope was a significant W Dorset industry, to Portsmouth for use as naval vessel cordage.

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by john new
Accidentally hit save whilst still typing!

[dfloyd]

21 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

… Unfortunately the book I have is in Swedish and I haven't been motivated to plough through it yet.

A (hopefully) useful tip for ploughing through when you get motivated is to try using the Google translate app on your mobile device, with camera enabled: just point at the pages. It does a surprisingly good job of rendering text in English in real time, and especially so if you download the full library of the language in question.