Imaginary Railways

[KeithMacdonald]

@MattA - just wondering if you have seen the Disused Stations page on Sidmouth?

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/sidmouth/index.shtml

 

Some nice pics there on what would/could be at a "new" Sidmouth station.

[MattA]

14 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

@MattA - just wondering if you have seen the Disused Stations page on Sidmouth?

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/sidmouth/index.shtml

 

Some nice pics there on what would/could be at a "new" Sidmouth station.

That website is a gold mine, and I made plenty of use of it when coming up with my version of the Sidmouth/Budleigh Salterton branch, and my own vision of the 'new' Sidmouth station (similar layout to this, but with a second through platform added on and the goods shed repositioned accordingly). I think that the Disused Stations website is a very useful first port of call for those looking to model a location based on one of many now-closed railways, before diving into the various books available on the matter.

Edited April 7, 2021 by MattA

[KeithMacdonald]

6 minutes ago, MattA said:

I think that the Disused Stations website is a very useful first port of call for those looking to model a location based on one of many now-closed railways

 

I concur. I did the same with Kingsbridge before imagining an extension to Salcombe. :-)

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/k/kingsbridge/index.shtml

[Zomboid]

17 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Tipton St.John, with the branch to Sidmouth. Room for carriage sidings?

 

Looks like there's space for something there, though of course in this universe it's not a junction so might not be as generously equipped.

 

Personally I'd have imagined that Exmouth were a through station, and Sidmouth a junction terminus (like Exmouth actually was). Or even more extravagantly a through station with services along the coast, to join up with the Seaton branch at the very least, forming a secondary loop from the main line at Axminster. Though quite what purpose the Sidmouth to Feniton section would serve in that universe I'm not so sure.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Zomboid

[KeithMacdonald]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Or even more extravagantly a through station with services along the coast, to join up with the Seaton branch at the very least, forming a secondary loop from the main line at Axminster

 

I do like the idea.

 

In our Imaginary Railways universe, however, are we allowed to remove pesky ranges of hills that get in the way?

 

I only ask because of memories of running some of the Greater Wessex Ridgeway, and the South West Coastal Path. As a rule of thumb, the Ridgway and Coastal Path runs East-West, but all the valleys run North-South! So there's hardly any flat land at all, and lots of steep up & down hills. Bad enough on foot, a bit of a show-stopper for a railway, unless we invoke some kind of monster tunnel-boring machine?  Diverted from the Channel Tunnel or CrossRail perhaps?

 

Hang on lads, I've got a great idea! There's a spare one left under Las Vegas at the end of Oceans Eleven ...

 

[Zomboid]

It would be a bit of a festival of gradients, tunnels and viaducts, which is presumably only one if the reasons it was never built like that, but a twisty low speed route along the coast would be scenic and charming, if a total basket case economically.

 

But what better justification for big engines on small trains? Mr Bulleid had just the thing, though an N class would probably have been enough for almost all the late period SR operations in reality.

[MattA]

29 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

It would be a bit of a festival of gradients, tunnels and viaducts, which is presumably only one if the reasons it was never built like that, but a twisty low speed route along the coast would be scenic and charming, if a total basket case economically.

 

But what better justification for big engines on small trains? Mr Bulleid had just the thing, though an N class would probably have been enough for almost all the late period SR operations in reality.

The Ilfracombe branch springs to mind regarding the motive power on steep gradients in Southern Region territory - Light Pacifics, Ns, BR 4MT tanks and sometimes GWR moguls too. I've also seen a picture of a GWR 2251 on railtour duty down that branch as well.

Edited April 7, 2021 by MattA

[KeithMacdonald]

Good news chaps!

 

Geologists have just announced a major discovery. The hills north of Branscombe, in between Sidmouth and Seaton, are now said to be made of a rare and valuable Dorset Marble. Like the Bath Limestone from Box Tunnel, or Portland Marble, but even better! It urgently needs tunnels to extract the marble, plus removal by a new railway line.

[KeithMacdonald]

Breaking news ... leaked documents from the Department of Transport show Route Option 1.

 

Stage 1, from Seaton Junction, up the Coly Valley

 

 

Stage 2, starting at the other end near Sidmouth, with new stations at Sidford and Sidbury, before heading up the valley towards Roncombe Gate ...

 

 

Stage 3, for the chuffing gurt big Tunnel Boring Machine, to break through into the Coly Valley near Farway.

 

[KeithMacdonald]

On 06/04/2021 at 19:10, MattA said:

I definitely have my eyes on mainline charters, albeit terminating at Sidmouth where I'm thinking that a bay platform (probably a remnant of this Sidmouth station originally being terminus) can be used to store ECS, similar to Kingswear.

 

Any ideas yet what the new Sidmouth station would look like?

[RLBH]

16 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

In our Imaginary Railways universe, however, are we allowed to remove pesky ranges of hills that get in the way?

 

I've imagined the hills around Shap being much higher to force the main line to Scotland across Stainmore, so all those extra hills must have come from somewhere!

[Zomboid]

17 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Breaking news ... leaked documents from the Department of Transport show Route Option 1.

 

Stage 1, from Seaton Junction, up the Coly Valley

 

 

Stage 2, starting at the other end near Sidmouth, with new stations at Sidford and Sidbury, before heading up the valley towards Roncombe Gate ...

 

 

Stage 3, for the chuffing gurt big Tunnel Boring Machine, to break through into the Coly Valley near Farway.

 

See I had the line changing Seaton Jn around so that it faced Axminster. Also running to Seaton itself, though the hills to get through to Sidmouth might be a bit much (hard to tell without a contoured map, though I've only just realised that the elevations on yours must be in feet rather than metres. I was thinking bits of east Devon were getting close to the Lake District in elevation...).

 

And then rather than heading north at Sidmouth, it carries on towards Otterton, joining the actually built line at Budleigh Salterton.

[KeithMacdonald]

4 hours ago, Zomboid said:

I had the line changing Seaton Jn around so that it faced Axminster. Also running to Seaton itself, though the hills to get through to Sidmouth might be a bit much (hard to tell without a contoured map, though I've only just realised that the elevations on yours must be in feet rather than metres.

Hi @Zomboid - yes, it's the olde-fashioned OS map published 1960.

e.g.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=13&lat=50.74220&lon=-3.07493&layers=11&b=1

 

Now out-of-copyright (by Ordnance Survey's own rules), so we can freely copy and play with them.

e.g. - as you suggest, changing Seaton Junction round so it faces the other way.

Moving it about a mile eastwards?

Running beside the River Axe instead of River Coly?

Colyton station could become "Colyton and Musbury" station?

Should Seaton get a seafront railway? (if it's good enough for Dawlish...)

 

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

How to minimise the tunneling between Seaton and Sidmouth?

Here's one potential route, using the River Sid valley, and surfacing in the Branscombe valley. 

Serendipitously this goes past Peco's factory in Beer.

 

[Zomboid]

2 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

How to minimise the tunneling between Seaton and Sidmouth?

Here's one potential route, using the River Sid valley, and surfacing in the Branscombe valley. 

Serendipitously this goes past Peco's factory in Beer.

 

I think the tunnel would be shorter if it went up the northern fork towards "Elverway Farm" and emerged further up the "Poccambe valley"

 

The bit past Beer Head could be more of a seaside shelf, like the approach to Padstow (or several other places, Whitehead in NI and bits of the Cambrian line immediately come to mind quite apart from Dawlish).

[KeithMacdonald]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

I think the tunnel would be shorter if it went up the northern fork towards "Elverway Farm" and emerged further up the "Poccambe valley"

 

Like this?

 

[The Johnster]

How about the Lower Rhymney Valley Extension Joint Railway.  Part of this was discussed many times during the railway expansion era, a tunnel beneath Mynydd Machen between Nine Mile Point in the Sirhowy Valley and Machen in the Rhymney Valley, but my proposal takes this route from a junction at Lower Machen to follow the Rhymni Valley through it's lower sparsely populated rural section via Draethen, Cefn Mably, and Llanederyn to make a junction with the SWML at Pengam, with possibly a spur from Llanederyn to the TVR Roath Branch for ease of access to Cardiff Dock, the main purpose of this route.  Coal traffic from the Sirhowy Valley could have used the route, and it would have enabled through passenger traffic to Cardiff from Tredegar, Blackwood, and Brecon.  It would have been a joint railway between the LNWR and Brecon & Merthyr, and probably not had any of it's own stock.  It might have run south of the SWML and built some coal wharves for coastal traffic in the tidal section of the Rhymni.

 

Draethen would make a good model,  the station on a shelf of the wooded hillside to the northwest of the village being the junction for the limestone quarries up towards Rudry.  Perhaps the terminus of an auto service from Cardiff and the quarry traffic would provide work for East Dock's collection of museum piece pre-grouplng 0-6-2s up to the early 50s.  The quarry branches need industrials to work them; prime Peckett or Barclay territory, or an early diesel.

 

For mid 50s, my recommended period for Draethen, the usual South Wales supects plus LNWR Coal Tank and G2 for through traffic from Tredegar, and 2251, Ivatt 2MT mogul, and Dean Goods at a push for the Brecon-Cardiff passenger service. 

[RJS1977]

All this talk of Sidmouth/Exmouth. One thought I had a few years ago - how about a connection from Dawlish Warren, along the spit and across the estuary (via a Barmouth-style bridge?) to connect to the Exmouth branches?

 

Not only would this allow stopping trains on the Exmouth branch to continue to Torquay or Plymouth (under modern day operations it would convert the Barnstaple/Exmouth/Paignton triangle into a straight run), in conjunction with some of the other ideas discussed, it would have allowed a direct SR/LSWR service to Torquay bypassing Exeter.

[Northmoor]

57 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

All this talk of Sidmouth/Exmouth. One thought I had a few years ago - how about a connection from Dawlish Warren, along the spit and across the estuary (via a Barmouth-style bridge?) to connect to the Exmouth branches?

 

Not only would this allow stopping trains on the Exmouth branch to continue to Torquay or Plymouth (under modern day operations it would convert the Barnstaple/Exmouth/Paignton triangle into a straight run), in conjunction with some of the other ideas discussed, it would have allowed a direct SR/LSWR service to Torquay bypassing Exeter.

Interesting idea, especially to imagine how the bridge would withstand the weather.  In a similar vein, I always liked the idea of the (actually planned I believe) bridge to the IoW at Freshwater.

More thought provoking though is why the LSWR would want to bypass Exeter, the largest settlement for 50 miles in any direction?

[KeithMacdonald]

43 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

One thought I had a few years ago - how about a connection from Dawlish Warren, along the spit and across the estuary (via a Barmouth-style bridge?) to connect to the Exmouth branches?

 

An excellent suggestion!

 

Just looking at the 1933 OS map, it looks like there really was a siding (or the start of a branch line) that went out along the spit.

(Either that or I'm totally confusing it with a footpath that confusingly merges with the other siding that runs towards Langstone Rock).

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/106005161

 

How this as a imaginary history, loosely based on some real history?

 

Quote

During WW2, South Devon was host to many US Army troops, training and preparing for the Normandy Invasion. It was anticipated that the US Army Corp of Engineers would have to rebuild many bridges in France, and a bridge from Exmouth to Dawlish Warren was built; partly as a training exercise, but also to speed movement of troops and supplies along the South Devon coastline.

 

 

[RJS1977]

4 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Interesting idea, especially to imagine how the bridge would withstand the weather.  In a similar vein, I always liked the idea of the (actually planned I believe) bridge to the IoW at Freshwater.

More thought provoking though is why the LSWR would want to bypass Exeter, the largest settlement for 50 miles in any direction?

 

For one thing, it would eliminate an awkward reversal at St David's. Exeter Central could also be quite congested at times, with the splitting and reforming of the Atlantic Coast Express. 

 

For another, I'd anticipate that the majority of traffic from Waterloo to Paignton would be holiday traffic. Traffic between London and Exeter would be served by the ACE and other West Country expresses, and traffic from St David's to Torquay would already be served by GWR.

 

It would also open up a potentially quicker route to Plymouth than going via  Okehampton, but Paddington might not be too happy....

[KeithMacdonald]

Over on the Dawlish in OO topic, @Rivercider says:

 

Quote

I have always 'known' that at one time there was a siding to unload boulders for sea defence work. I thought it was the one on the down side leading towards Langstone Rock, but presumably also included the siding you mention.

 

Or, in this case, boulders for foundations and the bridge to Exmouth?

 

Mind you, the parable about building your house on sand springs to mind. What techniques might our railway builders have used to build a railway on sand?

[Budgie]

On 10/04/2021 at 10:31, KeithMacdonald said:

Mind you, the parable about building your house on sand springs to mind. What techniques might our railway builders have used to build a railway on sand?

 

Maybe something similar to what was done on Chat Moss?

[Northmoor]

10 minutes ago, Budgie said:

 

Maybe something similar to what was done on Chat Moss?

The railway was floated on Chat Moss (and Rannoch Moor) but the water wasn't going anywhere.  You can't do this on a tidal estuary, or your floating bridge foundations might provide a link to somewhere you weren't intending, which from Exmouth might be Brittany.

[KeithMacdonald]

Yes, the branch line from Dawlish Warren over the spit might be the least challenging part. More demanding might be the bridge across the River Exe. Which is not only fast-flowing tidal water, but also deep. So it would need some kind of long span, maybe 300 metres long?

 

Would a Barmouth Bridge style of construction be suitable?