Imaginary Railways

[PhilJ W]

23 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

 

I recently found out that one of the original ideas was for the NER to remain mostly untouched as its own region much like the GW (how the GW managed to get away so untouched is a whole other story, mostly of nepotism) and the Scotland would be its own region but the Scottish companies wanted to merge with the English

It was suggested that all the Scottish companies were to be incorporated into the LMS but that would have made the company too big so the Scottish companies were split between the LMS and the LNER.

[Northmoor]

I was thinking of a new direction for this thread.  There are three possible ways to model a preserved railway:

1. An entirely imaginary railway of your own design (seen quite often but rarely very well);
2. A model of a real preserved railway (there have been a few excellent examples, such as ones I've seen of of Ropley, Arley and Tan-y-Bwlch);
3. A model of a real railway which closed but as if it had been preserved (there is an outstanding one of Sedburgh on RMWeb).  This could include the planned or possible future extensions of real preserved railways.

There are some potentially interesting examples of railways for which there was a preservation scheme which did not succeed (e.g. Longmoor, Radstock, Droxford) and to model these , you couldn't get away with Anything Goes like #1, because there is already a partial history of what was built, the track layout and rolling stock acquired, etc.  To do #3 properly requires research into what is feasible and plausible just like any real railway. 

 

Some schemes after the end of steam, undertook a lot of talk and planning but which folded before reaching the stage of operating anything, such as the Border Union Railway and the scheme to retain Barnstaple-Ilfracombe (in which I believe a lot of money was "lost").  Any others?

[PhilJ W]

There's also railways that were planned and even construction commenced before they were abandoned. 

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I was thinking of a new direction for this thread.  There are three possible ways to model a preserved railway:

 

Good points, Northmoor, but as I'm an inveterate nitpicker I'll mention that the thread is about imaginary railways, particularly from the pov of modelling them, not preserved railways.  Of course there are models of your example 1, imaginary preserved railways, but imaginary railways by definition don't exist, or get preserved...

 

My own suggestion, a long way upthread, was the Abergavenny, Brecon, & Llandovery Railway, which in my head was built by the GWR in order to prevent the LNWR building it; makes more sense from an LNW pov.  Junction off the M,T,& A just west of Abergavenny, follows the Usk Valley through Brecon, it's own station south of the river along the current route of the A40 bypass, to Trecastle, where there is a tunnel and a ****ing steep gradient down to Llandovery.  Traffic in the 1950s would be local stoppers, through coaches from the 'Cathederals Express' as far as Brecon, local goods, Irish cattle specials from Fishguard for the West Midlands, one or two oil trains to/from Milford Haven/Pembroke Dock to save paths on the SWML, military traffic for Crickhowell and Sennybridge, and holiday extras for Tenby.  I thought it would be fun to make it a red route from Abergavenny to Brecon and Blue west of there, so there could be loco changes.

 

In other words, and MHO, completely imaginary but possible to devise a backstory and credible traffic and working methods for.  I'd have it open post-Beeching until perhaps 1969 or 70, with dmus, Hymeks, and such.

[Hando]

On 22/10/2023 at 20:13, Northmoor said:

I was thinking of a new direction for this thread.  There are three possible ways to model a preserved railway:

1. An entirely imaginary railway of your own design (seen quite often but rarely very well);
2. A model of a real preserved railway (there have been a few excellent examples, such as ones I've seen of of Ropley, Arley and Tan-y-Bwlch);
3. A model of a real railway which closed but as if it had been preserved (there is an outstanding one of Sedburgh on RMWeb).  This could include the planned or possible future extensions of real preserved railways.

There are some potentially interesting examples of railways for which there was a preservation scheme which did not succeed (e.g. Longmoor, Radstock, Droxford) and to model these , you couldn't get away with Anything Goes like #1, because there is already a partial history of what was built, the track layout and rolling stock acquired, etc.  To do #3 properly requires research into what is feasible and plausible just like any real railway. 

 

Some schemes after the end of steam, undertook a lot of talk and planning but which folded before reaching the stage of operating anything, such as the Border Union Railway and the scheme to retain Barnstaple-Ilfracombe (in which I believe a lot of money was "lost").  Any others?

 

 

A direction I was thinking of going in for my Hope and Castleton Light Railway Layout (one of the many layouts I have yet to build, having been deliberating over the track plan for far too long, plus now the added the demands of higher education), was of a small newly-established heritage line, like East Kent, Telford, Lincolnshire Wolds, Lavendar Line, East Somerset etc. For context, the Hope and Castelton Light Railway was a proposed branch line that was never built. Quite ironic really given the huge influx of tourism Castleton now receives, on top of the cement works that was built close to the intended trackbed roughly 20 years later, but I digress. In this scenario, I suppose that the South Yorkshire Railway Preservation Society and the Bahamas Locomotive Society would decide to set up shop in Castleton in the late nineties/early noughties, following the SYRPS' eviction from Meadowhall and the BLS' eviction from Dinting respectively.  From the from the terminus at Castleton, a half-mile or so of track is laid to reach the overbridge at Pindale. The rest of the branch to Hope would take the place of the real-life Hope Cement Works Branch, with Class 30s running up and down to the exchange sidings on the Hope Valley Line as they do now. Perhaps a connection would be in place to allowing irregular special services to run along the whole length of the line to Hope, akin to the railtours that take place during Hope Cement Works' open days.

[The Johnster]

I have disbelief suspension issues with any form of modelling of preserved/heritage lines other than models of actual preserved/heritage lines.  Even if you came up with a credible backstory, you would have the problem of locos and stock; do you model locos and stock that were never preserved, and if you don't how do you explain the presence of actually preserved locos not in their actual locations.  There is, I suppose, a little leeway with NRM locos and stock which are moved around the country to different Heritage lines over time anyway, but it's all very awkward isn't it.

 

If you model an imaginary preserved line, are you justified in using locos and stock that were never actually preserved because you can't use the locos or stock that actually were  preserved because their location and state of preservation at any given time since preservation are well known?  Would you be justified in including Barry locos that have never been restored in restored working condition?  Should I stop worrying and get on with my life? 

 

Answer to the last question is a resounding 'yes, of course you should, Johnster'.  So the accommodation I have come to with the world of modelling real or imaginary preserved railways is that I don't, for the reasons stated, but have no problem with other people doing them.  It's jes' not ma thang!!!

Edited October 24, 2023 by The Johnster

[PhilJ W]

My layout is of a preserved railway precisely because I have models of stock that is no longer extant*. As for preserved locomotives its a simple matter in many cases to renumber it with the number of a long scrapped member of the same class. (Something that some preserved railways have already done.) *I like to create a 'backstory' for the continued existence of such locomotives. For example one of my locomotives is one of seven locomotives that were withdrawn over a period of about one year. The first to be withdrawn was the last to be scrapped because it had been used as a shunter. In my miniature world it wasn't scrapped and lasted into the preservation era.

[westerner]

Is The Johnsoner's rather like my Wencombe and Kingsbridge regis layouts. To remind everyone instead of building to Kinswear from Paignton the line swung across the dart to Dartmouth then climbed to  high point at Wencombe with a branch to Slapton and then down to Kingsbridge from the east, Traffic was basically the same traffic that went to Dartmouth. The Torbay express being renamed the the South Devon.

[KeithMacdonald]

On 22/10/2023 at 20:25, PhilJ W said:

There's also railways that were planned and even construction commenced before they were abandoned. 

 

A classic example being the Dawlish Avoiding Line. It was granted approval and land was acquired, route surveying started in Spring 1939, with poles along the proposed route.

 

More...

 

[Northmoor]

19 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I have disbelief suspension issues with any form of modelling of preserved/heritage lines other than models of actual preserved/heritage lines.  Even if you came up with a credible backstory, you would have the problem of locos and stock; do you model locos and stock that were never preserved, and if you don't how do you explain the presence of actually preserved locos not in their actual locations.  There is, I suppose, a little leeway with NRM locos and stock which are moved around the country to different Heritage lines over time anyway, but it's all very awkward isn't it.

 

If you model an imaginary preserved line, are you justified in using locos and stock that were never actually preserved because you can't use the locos or stock that actually were  preserved because their location and state of preservation at any given time since preservation are well known?  Would you be justified in including Barry locos that have never been restored in restored working condition?  Should I stop worrying and get on with my life? 

 

Answer to the last question is a resounding 'yes, of course you should, Johnster'.  So the accommodation I have come to with the world of modelling real or imaginary preserved railways is that I don't, for the reasons stated, but have no problem with other people doing them.  It's jes' not ma thang!!!

By that logic, how do you explain your locos being at Cwmdimbath and not where they would have really been in 1949?  You've created an absence elsewhere.  I know @Firecracker who's modelled Sedburgh as if preserved, has some locos which were at Woodhams but which were scrapped (e.g. 76080) and he has the back story for all the late steam survivors, which didn't quite survive long enough.

 

But hey, your logic works for you and that's all that should matter.  Anyone building a model railway purely to seek the adulation of others is likely to be disappointed (although many on this forum rightly get a lot of adulation for their modelling and it is very well deserved).

 

To come back to my original point, what lines were nearly preserved but the scheme fell at the final hurdle?  One which survived but not in the form originally intended, is the East Anglian Railway Museum at Chappell; this was originally the Stour Valley Railway, formed to take over the Sudbury branch which BR was threatening with closure.  Except it never did.....

[The Johnster]

30 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

19 hours ago, The Johnster said:

By that logic, how do you explain your locos being at Cwmdimbath and not where they would have really been in 1949?

 

31 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

But hey, your logic works for you and that's all that should matter

 

Doesn't say anywhere that my logic has to be logical, and quite a lot of it isn't...

 

The time-frame for Cwmdimbath is 1948-58, and all bar one (so far, we'll come back  to this) were allox TDU during that period, as are all my auto-trailers and most of my passneger stock.  Not all at the same time or for all of the time, but there.  Inevitably there are loco/stock and livery anomalies, but I can live with the compromise (my 'compromise level' is inconsistent as well).  The odd man out is a BR 3MT prairie, 82001 actually allox Barry. 

 

TDU's allocation was usually around the 50 loco ball-park, and as well as some main line work four branches were run from the shed, Porthcawl, Abergwynfi, Blaengarw, and Nantymoel.  An extra branch, Cwmdimbath, had it existed would have presumably meant an increased allocation of about 10%, five locos, translated to probably two or three tops on the layout  82001 was not liked at Barry and is on long-term loan to see if it does any better at Tondu.  We may in future see TDU-allocated 3100, and unfinished 1980s kits TVR A from Barry and Rhymney R from Dyffryn Yard on a similar basis.  Rule 1 confers great freedom, but with great freedom comes great taxes I mean responsibility!

[KeithMacdonald]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

By that logic, how do you explain your locos being at Cwmdimbath and not where they would have really been in 1949? 

 

58 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Doesn't say anywhere that my logic has to be logical, and quite a lot of it isn't...

 

Seems to me that @Northmoor is pleading for a rationally-possible railway. 

Which would surely be a very valuable section/topic in it's own right.

 

But (sadly) would fail the first test of the Original Topic here.

It's imaginary railways, baby!

 

Now, where was I, did I mention HS3?

And I really must finish the plans for that extension from Kingsbridge to the new dock and station in Salcombe.

And the railway bridge from Dawlish Warren to Exmouth.

[DCB]

On 22/10/2023 at 19:24, PhilJ W said:

It was suggested that all the Scottish companies were to be incorporated into the LMS but that would have made the company too big so the Scottish companies were split between the LMS and the LNER.

The way I understood it  the Scottish railways were to become one entity but after agreeing a tartan livery for the locos the question of which tartan could not be resolved and it was easier to divide them between LNER and LMS  Had they realised the LMS would paint Caledonian locos Red not the LNWR Black they expected the decision may have been reversed.    Anyway whats wrong with the Isle of Skye as a location for a imaginary railway.

[rodent279]

One imaginary railway that is rationally possible is a line from somewhere on the Far North line to Ullapool. I believe a line was planned, but never got beyond the planning stage.

[DCB]

14 hours ago, rodent279 said:

One imaginary railway that is rationally possible is a line from somewhere on the Far North line to Ullapool. I believe a line was planned, but never got beyond the planning stage.

It's in one of the histories of the Highland Railway, as was a line on the Isle of Skye  circa 1898, I will try go find it and edit this to give the title.

[KeithMacdonald]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

It's in one of the histories of the Highland Railway, as was a line on the Isle of Skye  circa 1898, I will try go find it and edit this to give the title.

 

Are you, perchance, thinking of the Skye Marble Railway?

Edit: added link

https://hlrco.wordpress.com/scottish-narrow-gauge/constructed-lines/skye-marble-railway/

Edited October 25, 2023 by KeithMacdonald

[KeithMacdonald]

There was also the Hebridean Light Railway Company, another proposed-but-never-built railway.

Which:

Quote

proposed to operate on the Scottish islands of Skye and Lewis. The Skye line was to have connected the port of Isleornsay (for ferries from Mallaig on the Scottish mainland) and the port of Uig on the north-west coast of the island, from where ferries would have sailed to Stornoway on Lewis. Another line was then proposed to link Stornoway to Carloway, the second settlement of Lewis. Branch lines were also proposed to Breasclete and Dunvegan.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebridean_Light_Railway_Company

 

Records in the Natonal Archives in Kew have the original paperwork, and a description of the proposed route in detail.

 

Isleornsay – Broadford – Portree – Uig (with a branch to Dunvegan)

 

Commencing on a Pier to be constructed in Isle Ornsay Habour in the Parish of Sleat, Isle of Skye, Inverness-shire, on the foreshore and bed of said harbour in or ex adverso of said Parish at a point 766 yards or thereabouts south-eastwards from Druisdale House, and proceeding from that point, northwestwards along the west shore of Loch-n-Dal passing to the east of the head waters of Loch Eishort into the Parish of Strath and the vallev of the river Airidh-na-Suiridhe passing to the south of the Village of Broadford, keeping to the west and south side of the main road from to Broadford to Portree as far as Strollamus, from whence following the west side of Loch-na-Cairidh, the south-east, south-west and north-west shores of Loch Ainort into the Parish of Portree and thence round the coast to the southern side of Loch Sligachan and across the glen and river of that name. into the Parish of Bracadale through which it passes to the south-west oi Sligachan Inn and to the west of Loch Mor na Caiplaich to the valley of the Varragill river when again entering the Parish of Portree it follows the west side of said river and Portree Loch to the Town of Portree, whence turning to the north-west along the valley of the Leasgarv river and passing to the south of Drumuie into the Parish of Snizort and proceeeding in a north north-westerly direction to tbe Village of Kensaleyre, whence it follows the east Shore of Loch Eyre and Loch Snizort Beag to Kingsburgh, thence north to Uig Bay and round the eastern and northern sides of same to Uig Pier upon which it terminates at a point about 66 yards frorn the eastern end of said Pier.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by KeithMacdonald

[DCB]

1 hour ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Are you, perchance, thinking of the Skye Marble Railway?

Edit: added link

https://hlrco.wordpress.com/scottish-narrow-gauge/constructed-lines/skye-marble-railway/

O S Nock  The Highland Railway. p 105 refers to a proposal for a light railway  on Skye but from Isle Oronsay on the Sound of Sleat not Kyleakin opposite Kyle where the Highland was heading for at the time. I think the Highland got to Kyle about the time the NB got to Mallaig.   From 1870 the Highland used Strome Ferry as a ferry terminal  for Skye     A light railway from Forsinard to Portskerrie on the north coast was proposed but again was never built and one from the Mound to Dornoch which was built and latterly operated by 1600 Pannier Tanks.  However that was not the book I remember reading about the Skye proposal in, its just the one I found in my book heap.  Maybe it was in another edition ,this one is paperback of 1973 first published 1965 and is falling apart  having cost 50p from some preserved railway shop or other.

EDIT

Looks like the Isle Oronsay to Portree section of the Isle Oronsay to Uig line would have followed the current road and the section around the coast would have been most spectacular.   Could make a nice "Cliffhanger" type layout 4ft high, 1 ft wide...

Edited October 26, 2023 by DCB

[KeithMacdonald]

On 26/10/2023 at 01:14, DCB said:

ooks like the Isle Oronsay to Portree section of the Isle Oronsay to Uig line would have followed the current road and the section around the coast would have been most spectacular.   Could make a nice "Cliffhanger" type layout 4ft high, 1 ft wide...

 

Just found that someone has done a nice road trip, taking pictures all along the proposed route.

 

Part 1 – Isle Ornsay to Broadford

https://hlrco.wordpress.com/2010/12/15/hlr-route-part-1-isle-ornsay-to-broadford/

 

Part 2 – Broadford to Sligachan

https://hlrco.wordpress.com/2011/05/30/hlr-route-part-2-broadford-to-sligachan/

 

Part 3 – Sligachan to Skeabost

https://hlrco.wordpress.com/2011/06/02/hlr-route-part-3-sligachan-to-skeabost/

 

Part 4 – Skeabost to Uig

https://hlrco.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/hlr-route-part-4-skeabost-to-uig/

[DenysW]

On 25/10/2023 at 01:42, DCB said:

the question of which tartan could not be resolved

Royal Stuart. Next.

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

On 25/10/2023 at 01:42, DCB said:

the question of which tartan could not be resolved

 

Even on the Isle of Skye that could be a deadly argument.

[KeithMacdonald]

Talking of the Isle of Skye, it's all gone quiet on the Hebridean Light Railway Company.

They got as far as Portree, but seem to have become distracted by industrial railways and German spies.

Either that, or they are still "investigating" connections and branches to various whisky distilleries.

With a wee dram or three, or four, or...

 

 

[PhilJ W]

Having purchased the 'Titfield Thunderbolt' set and the buffet car I was thinking of what if the (Titfield to Malinford) line  became a preserved railway and model it as it might have been in the current century.

[Hando]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

Having purchased the 'Titfield Thunderbolt' set and the buffet car I was thinking of what if the (Titfield to Malinford) line  became a preserved railway and model it as it might have been in the current century.

I've always pondered what the in-universe Titfield and Mallingford line would've looked like during the 19th century. Whether the railway company (who operated the Titfield Thunderbolt engine), were amalgamated into the Great Western, or remained an independent concern. One wonders what stock would've been used in either of those situations...

 

[The Johnster]

Most likely scenario is that of most branches; promoted in perhaps the 1870s by a locally floated independent company whose major shareholders were the local great and good; His Lordship, any local businesses, the better-off farmers, perhaps the vicar.  Prospectus something like 'connection to the growing main line railway network will attract investment into Titfield and enable us to send our produce more quickly and cheaply to Mallingford and even That London.  This time next year, we'll all be millionaires'.

 

So they formed a company, got an Act of Parliament, hired a civil engineer, and started digging.  In the case of the T & M, they bought the Thunderbolt, which would have been second- or third-hand and 40-odd years old.  They run out of money fairly quickly, and have to put out another share issue, which is much less eagerly taken up this time especially by the original contributors, who are also the directors; reality is starting to bite and the project is starting to look like a moneypit.  They get the scheme past the BoT inspector on the third or fourth try, and they're in business, ok, perhaps things'll be better now, and in about a decade we'll start seeing a return on our far-sighted enterprise. 

 

And, immediately, it is clear that the line cannot make money and never will and becomes a burden to the local community, hobbled by government set goods rates and the locals refusing to travel on anything but the Parliamentary.  This time next year, we'll all be broke, we've actually got no idea what running a railway entails, and we are starting to wish we'd never got involved...  O, b*gger, Overend & Gurney have just gone down!

 

At this point in the proceedings, a well-dressed, well-spoken and very pleasant up-and-coming young man from the GWR turns up and makes what looks like a very generous offer.  Hallelulia, we're saved, we've cut our losses, we might have come out evens even, and the GW will run our railway for us.  If we were lucky, the LSW expressed an interest as well and there was a bidding war.  The Thunderbolt is kept in service but replaced fairly soon by a GW engine, the GW provides better quality stock, and is happy with it's purchase, blocking an expansion by the LSW or perhaps the Midland and acquiring a useful loss-leading traffic feeder.  Our local investors are chastened by the experience, but now have share in the GW, and these actually pay divvies!

 

The film does not go in to the intervening history of the Thunderbolt, but she's a survivor.  Perhaps she's sold out of service to a local factory or even a farm as a stationary boiler, and after a while she's a centenarian and nobody in Titfield has the heart to scrap her, she's still a useful spare.

 

Eventually, a decade or so after the time of the film, The Doctor will shut the loss-making branch; there's an alternative bus service for passengers and the first-class ones now have cars, roads have improved, and lorries look more efficient at carrying away local produce.  Mallingford is expanding, and Titfield is becoming a commuter dormitory, but this is based on car use and comes too late to save the branch.  But all is still feasible in the film story.