Imaginary Railways

[2E Sub Shed]

On 25/10/2023 at 07:12, rodent279 said:

One imaginary railway that is rationally possible is a line from somewhere on the Far North line to Ullapool. I believe a line was planned, but never got beyond the planning stage.

 

On 25/10/2023 at 21:52, DCB said:

It's in one of the histories of the Highland Railway, as was a line on the Isle of Skye  circa 1898, I will try go find it and edit this to give the title.

 

 

Garve to Ullapool          GNSR first mooted in 1890 and the scheme resurrected in 1919 as a possible light railway or narrow gauge line using WW1 surplus equipment- see Pages 261 -3 of "A Regional History of the Railways pf Great Britain Vol 15 North of Scotland"  

 

Skye    This has had 5 railways, all industry related, one a steam worked 3ft line, however not all existed at same time, and one is recorded as still operational - described in  "Scotland's Island Railways" by James Carron 

Edited November 9, 2023 by 2E Sub Shed
typo and missing word

[KeithMacdonald]

On 25/10/2023 at 07:12, rodent279 said:

One imaginary railway that is rationally possible is a line from somewhere on the Far North line to Ullapool. I believe a line was planned, but never got beyond the planning stage.

 

Yes, a journey to Ullapool would have been via the existing Far North Line from Inverness to Dingwall, then onto the Kyle of Lochalsh line as far as Garve, which would have become a junction.

 

The proposed line to Ullapool would have been 32 miles long. Up the Galscarnoch River valley to Braemore, then north on the east side of River Broom. With perhaps a station at Inverlael. Then alongside Loch Broom to a terminus at Ullapool. Maybe only three stops in all?

 

The obvious question: Would it have been viable?

 

It would clearly have depended heavily on (a) passenger traffic to & from the ferry from Ullapool to Stornaway and (b) seafood freight from Ullapool to the south. What else would there be?

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Well, it's the closest mainland seaport to Greenland. If Welsh families could be persuaded to emigrate to Patagonia, I am sure that Scottish Highlanders could be persuaded to head across the North Atlantic. Think of it being a bit like the Metropolitan Railway encouraging people to move out from London to leafy Buckinghamshire. Escape to Greenland with the Garve and Ullapool Railway and Steamship Company.

[KeithMacdonald]

6 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

If Welsh families could be persuaded to emigrate to Patagonia...

 

...everything is possible.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/migration_patagonia.shtml

Did that gave rise to the Argentinian Rugby team?

Beating Wales (of all teams) 29-17 in the 2023 World Cup Quarter Final.

Oh the irony!

Then got hammered by the All Blacks, but they only lost to England in the Bronze-Final by 23-26.

 

8 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Escape to Greenland with the Garve and Ullapool Railway and Steamship Company.

 

Summer excursions a speciality. With posters all over Scotland of people playing on the beach at Nuuk.

[The Johnster]

With steamer connections at Ullapool for Greenland, you'd be able to book a through ticket to Thule (Ultima)...

 

There's a sort of precedent; when the uninhabited islandd of Iceland was discovered and settled by Vikings, they settled it by persuading Hebridean women to go with them; persuaded, mind, the women saw it as a good opportunity and went willingly, not the usual Viking reputation I know but it is recorded in several sources.

[rodent279]

8 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Yes, a journey to Ullapool would have been via the existing Far North Line from Inverness to Dingwall, then onto the Kyle of Lochalsh line as far as Garve, which would have become a junction.

 

The proposed line to Ullapool would have been 32 miles long. Up the Galscarnoch River valley to Braemore, then north on the east side of River Broom. With perhaps a station at Inverlael. Then alongside Loch Broom to a terminus at Ullapool. Maybe only three stops in all?

 

The obvious question: Would it have been viable?

 

It would clearly have depended heavily on (a) passenger traffic to & from the ferry from Ullapool to Stornaway and (b) seafood freight from Ullapool to the south. What else would there be?

 

I wonder if it would be viable as a 3' or metre gauge line, maybe carrying standard gauge wagons on piggyback trucks, like on certain narrow gauge lines in mainland Europe. It could even be electrified at 1500v DC, powered by locally based hydro-electric power stations.

Fast forward to the 1980s, and we see something like this running hourly services between Garve & Ullapool,  taking about 45 min each way:-

 

With something like this running tourist trains on weekends and holidays, during the summer:-

 

Interesting idea for a model.

Edited November 10, 2023 by rodent279

[rodent279]

Question for the railway civil engineers out there. A narrow gauge, say metre gauge, line could have smaller radius curves than a standard gauge line. Presumably it could also have steeper gradients. Given that, could it actually have the same line speeds as a standard gauge line?

The ruling line speed on the Berner Oberland Bahn, where the first photo above was taken, seems to be about 70km/h according to Open Railway Map.

[Northmoor]

51 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Question for the railway civil engineers out there. A narrow gauge, say metre gauge, line could have smaller radius curves than a standard gauge line. Presumably it could also have steeper gradients. Given that, could it actually have the same line speeds as a standard gauge line?

The ruling line speed on the Berner Oberland Bahn, where the first photo above was taken, seems to be about 70km/h according to Open Railway Map.

Why could it have steeper gradients? Hauling one hundred tonnes up a 1 in 30 incline is the same effort irrespective of gauge.  Steep gradients on NG lines in quarries etc., were only acceptable because it was expected that only one or two wagons at a time would be being shunted to the workface.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Narrow gauge means cheaper. The entire formation is narrower, and train and axle weights are lower meaning less support is needed in the formation, structures and permanent way. The downside is that trains are smaller, meaning less can be carried, and speeds are lower. There's no real difference in what gradients you can have (look at the Cromford and High Peak), but you can have sharper curves because narrow gauge allows shorter wheelbases without unduly affecting stability, although the difference is often overstated. Again, the Cromford and High Peak provides an excellent example with 330 foot radius curves (5 chains), which is about the minimum for a conventional locomotive-hauled standard gauge railway with side buffers. On the 2-foot gauge Ffestiniog Railway, 5 chains is generous and many curves are 3 chains or less, with the sharpest (in pre-preservation days) being 1.75 chains (115' 6"). However, standard gauge with bogie vehicles and centre buffers can beat this, and some standard gauge tramways and metro systems have curves of 100 foot radius or less.

 

If you want sharper curves than 5 chains for an ordinary passenger and goods line, then you can no longer use ordinary main line vehicles, so you may as well look at narrow gauge. If you don't need such sharp curves, then you might prefer standard gauge despite the greater construction costs, because you will avoid the need for transhipment. You might be able to piggy-back main line wagons on narrow gauge, if you make the formation wide enough, but if you have many main line wagons to carry you are probably better off looking at standard gauge.

 

In terms of speed, the narrower the gauge, the lower the maximum speed (in general), but most situations where you are thinking of narrow gauge are likely to involve fairly sharp curves, so speed would be limited anyway by the curvature.

 

Garve and Ullapool was intended as standard gauge, wasn't it?

[PhilJ W]

How about this for an imaginary railway:-

http://www.simonknott.co.uk/ipswichunderground.htm

 

[KeithMacdonald]

15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

There's a sort of precedent; when the uninhabited islandd of Iceland was discovered and settled by Vikings, they settled it by persuading Hebridean women to go with them; persuaded, mind, the women saw it as a good opportunity and went willingly, not the usual Viking reputation I know but it is recorded in several sources.

 

In the era before Jaguar cars existed and caddish chaps could say to impressionable young women...

"Hello my dear, would you like to go for a ride in my Jaaaag?"

 

There must have been a Viking equivalent.

Ah, you pretty woman, come for ride in my fast longboat to special island in the west?

[The Johnster]

Quite possibly.  Apparently, and not quite what you'd expect from people notorious for rape, pillage, and other ruffytuffy seafaring pastimes, Vikings used scent to make themselves more attractive to women that the English, Welsh, or Scots peasants  they were stealing the women from.  Some of it was consensual, it wasn't all rape...

[whart57]

There was a photograph in a book once that showed how the sharper curves of narrow gauge made gradients less fierce and reduced the need for earthworks. The reason is that sharper curves meant a line could hug the contours better and thus stay at the same level for longer rather than either going up and down or requiring great chunks of hillside to be dug away.

[whart57]

The scope for imaginary railways can be increased if you are prepared to imagine alternative histories. For example, what if the Act of Union in 1707 had never been passed, or that it was repealed, as it nearly was, a few years later. The result might have been a Scotland united with England under the same monarch but with its own Parliament in Edinburgh. Not dissimilar to what we have today. Then railways north of the border would not have been part of the LMS or LNER but an entirely independent Scottish network. As a smaller country Scotland might also have followed the Belgian or Dutch examples of a state railway (still privately owned in the latter case but operating the state owned lines). Say it followed the Dutch example, then private companies would build the lines from Glasgow and Edinburgh south to England and probably some of the more profitable connections in the Central belt, but the Scottish government would end up having to build the lines north or across the Borders and then set up a company - Scottish Railways - to operate them. What would that company look like, what sort of loco policy would it have? Going further would it be an early adopter of electric traction using hydro-electric power from the Highlands? Would it fall into the trap of thinking narrow gauge was the answer and build a network of metre gauge lines in the Highlands. A dual gauge station in Stirling or Perth might be an interesting project.

 

Metre gauge wouldn't necessarily mean small tank engines though. This picture shows a metre gauge loco actually built in Scotland by the North British company but used in Thailand

 

[Northmoor]

On 31/08/2017 at 21:02, Northmoor said:

This thread has produced so many "What if?" scenarios for particular railways, most of us have come up with more than one to justify our choice of "prototype".  However, I once started to compile a list of more strategic "What if?s" where a major industry or political event did or didn't happen.  See if you can add to these:

1. The Irish potato famine never happened.  Quite apart from the obvious millions of people saved, it would have impacted the railways of Britain as trade with Ireland would have been considerably greater.  One example is that Fishguard Harbour wouldn't exist, Brunel would have built the harbour 50-60 years earlier at Abermawr about 10 miles further west, in deeper water.
2. (Mentioned elsewhere in this thread) The Grouping was a much less extreme event than actually occurred, with the companies consolidated into perhaps a dozen and not four. Larger regional companies, perhaps the financially more secure, survived.  Perhaps the GER might have stayed independent? With more companies, would they have all retained their own works or would have been increasing use of contractor-built and standard locos and rolling stock?
3. Electrification planned by the NER and LMS actually went ahead in the 1920s and progressively extended. The initial Crewe - Carlisle would be extended to form a NW England network with branches to Liverpool and Manchester where conveniently, it would link with the 1500V Woodhead route electrified by the LNER!
4. Nationalisation - which was as universally unpopular across the industry as privatisation/franchising was in the 1990s (but the government did it anyway!) - didn't happen.  Instead the government offered low interest loans to the companies to invest in modernisation but still created a BTC to offer standard designs of diesels, units etc.  There would have been less variety but also considerably fewer redundant/duplicate designs built by contractors without the skills to build them properly.  The Big Four were often quite innovative, British Railways generally built slightly more modern versions of the equipment the railways already had, without updating the working practices.
5. The Beeching report was implemented, but nothing that WASN'T listed in the report was closed.  Sadly a great deal was; most rail re-openings, planned or actually implemented, are of lines closed after 1968 which the Beeching report didn't propose for closure.
6. (We've all dreamed of this one) Steam wasn't hurriedly abandoned in 1968 but was continued in a few small areas where there was a concentration of traffics with no advantage of diesel over steam (e.g. short distance, slow-moving, unfitted coal trains).  Newer steam locos, such as 9Fs were retained until they were worn out, the traffic was lost or modernised such that steam was no longer appropriate. The massive costs of redundancy ies was spread over a longer period and the workforce given longer to adapt or leave the service.  The full design life of the 9Fs might have seen them in service up to the mid-80s, which coincides with the pit closure plan which led to the miners' strike.....
7. (My favourite) The Channel Tunnel project was completed in the early 1970s.  What might the rail network look like now? Would the GC have been mothballed then upgraded as the main line to the continent?  Would Tonbridge - Redhill - Guildford - Reading have been a major freight route, to Berne Gauge?

Any others?

An imaginary railway has to involve alternative history, almost by definition.

 

Near the beginning of this thread, I suggested a few alternative histories of the UK (see above), some more commonly thought of than others.

[john new]

3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

An imaginary railway has to involve alternative history, almost by definition.

 

Near the beginning of this thread, I suggested a few alternative histories of the UK (see above), some more commonly thought of than others.

A couple

 

The political will back in the day was to run the proposed through trains via the Channel Tunnel to provincial UK destinations rather than be cancelled and the stock sold off.  The 3rd rail units ran on from reversal at Waterloo to Reading International and some ran round via North Pole then onto the o/h equipped Main lines to the north. Even with the St Pancras route some still ran to Waterloo. With the GWR electrification those were further extended and went on to Bristol and Cardiff.

 

The Isle of Wight tunnel did get built therefore the routes to/from the west end of the IoW became significant and weren’t closed. The usual collection of Steam types then REPs VEPS and 4TCs running through to the IoW. One named express each way per day The Royal Vectonian.

[PhilJ W]

When the GER Southminster branch was built in the late 1880's Southminster station was built as a through station not as a terminus. Roll forward fifty years to 1938/9 and construction commenced on a holiday complex at Bradwell two miles beyond the end of the branch. The intention was that the LNER would extend the branch to a new terminus close to the camp. Sadly WW2 intervened and the holiday camp site became RAF Bradwell and later the site of Bradwell nuclear power station. However what if the camp site and the branch extension had been completed by the time that war broke out? No doubt because of its strategic position it would have been used by the military for a few years after the war and would have escaped the Beeching axe (as the branch did due to the presence of the nuclear power station). The station as such would be very similar to Filey in layout with a couple of long excursion platforms and plenty of carriage sidings. Possibly due to the war some of the carriage sidings would have been lifted or not laid in the first place and the military would have used the land to build storage facilities.

Edited November 17, 2023 by PhilJ W

[whart57]

A question. Is suggesting an extension to a branchline that would be indistinguishable from a railway company's other branch lines really an "imaginary railway"?

[sir douglas]

a railway that is not real, there for imaginary railway, maybe youre thinking a bit too philosophical, the thread is about any railways that dontt exist, be it route or history

[MikeB]

A detailed history of the Garve and Ullapool Railway is given in Andrew Drummond's book "A Quite Impossible Proposal".  An account of its construction is in the same author's novel "An Abridged History of the Construction of the Railway line betwen Garve, Ullapool and Lochinver".

[scots region]

On 16/11/2023 at 09:39, whart57 said:

The scope for imaginary railways can be increased if you are prepared to imagine alternative histories. For example, what if the Act of Union in 1707 had never been passed, or that it was repealed, as it nearly was, a few years later. The result might have been a Scotland united with England under the same monarch but with its own Parliament in Edinburgh. Not dissimilar to what we have today. Then railways north of the border would not have been part of the LMS or LNER but an entirely independent Scottish network. As a smaller country Scotland might also have followed the Belgian or Dutch examples of a state railway (still privately owned in the latter case but operating the state owned lines). Say it followed the Dutch example, then private companies would build the lines from Glasgow and Edinburgh south to England and probably some of the more profitable connections in the Central belt, but the Scottish government would end up having to build the lines north or across the Borders and then set up a company - Scottish Railways - to operate them. What would that company look like, what sort of loco policy would it have? Going further would it be an early adopter of electric traction using hydro-electric power from the Highlands? Would it fall into the trap of thinking narrow gauge was the answer and build a network of metre gauge lines in the Highlands. A dual gauge station in Stirling or Perth might be an interesting project.

 

Metre gauge wouldn't necessarily mean small tank engines though. This picture shows a metre gauge loco actually built in Scotland by the North British company but used in Thailand

 

 

In my own personal alternate history, the Brits win the American Revolutionary War, but fall into a revolution of their own, leaving the Royal family to set up shop in newly loyalist America. The Bourbons make less of a hash of the period and manage to figuratively and literally keep their heads through the reformation of the Kingdom of France, helps that a certain famous admiral of the period spots the crown George left behind and begins making designs on Portugal... and Normandy. Things get hairy for a while, but eventually the dust... and blood settles. 

 

You then have a royalist American, a republican Britain, and an constitutionalist France, lead by an, extremely relieved, Louis the sixteenth. The rest... is history I'm told. 

[The Johnster]

Ok, how about this for a mad idea (and before you dismiss it as utter insanity, remember three words; Welsh, Highland, and Railway).  There was once a branch off the Mid-Wales route to Elan Village, and a narrow gauge tramway system used in the construction of the reservoirs, the trackbed of which still survives on the opposite sides of them to the roads.  So, improbable but not impossible number one, Birmingham Corporation promotes this as a 2' gauge tourist line offering superb views over the reservoirs; day trips from Snow Hill and Cardiff/Bristol are popular and special through trains run to Elan Village in the holiday season.  Local pressure wants a better connection to Aberystwyth, and there is a slate quarry at Cwmystwyth, only a  couple of miles or so from the Birminham Corporation's terminus at Pont ar Elan, top end of the Craig Goch reservoir.  Believe it or not, there's a couple of farms up there!

 

Now, allow me to introduce you to improbable but not impossible number two, the Devil's Bridge, Cwmystwyth, and Rhayader Joint Railway.  This allows through traffic between Aberystwyth and Rhayader, a daily train in each direction passing at Cwmystwyth, maybe two on market days.  Cwmystwyth is also served by some extended V of R trains.  A daily clearance from the slate sidings goes out 'over the top' to Rhayader

 

The station to model would probably be Pont-ar-Elan, up on the bleak moors of the Cambrian Mountains.  As well as the 'Aberystwyth Mountain Express' in each direction, at that time the only narrow-gauge service offering full buffet and restaurant facilities and very popular on Sundays as it is 'wet', there might well be a through Vale of Rheidol train connecting with a Birmingham, all stopper.  You'd probably need coaling facilities if VoR locos were to be used, they weren't designed for plugging up mountains over those sorts of distances...

 

The Birmingham locos sound as if they are going to be Bagnalls, supplemented in later years by secondhand quarry Hunslets, and the DB,C,&R, joint locos need to be quite big, double Fairlies or Beyer-Garratts possibly.  The railway would be a natural home for the Lynton & Barnstaple stock and possibly Campbelltown & Macrahanish or Leek & Manifold when they become availlable; one might even justify a home for Russell or Moel Tryfan.  Restaurant/Buffet cars would likely be similar to the Festiniog (period spelling) 1960s conversions of L&B coaches, and observation cars are almost a given, and steam heating is essential even in summer on some days.  Couple of fast stretches Rhayader-Elan Village and across the open moors between Pont-ar-Elan and Cwmystwyth, line speed might be 40mph.  Locos used on the Devil's Bridge-Pont-ar-Elan section will need powerful headlamps and 'sheep catchers'.

 

The Birmingham Corpn. tourist trains can be hauled by small 0-4-0s and have open toastrack coaches for warm sunny days.  First class has revolving armchairs that can be locked in position so you can enjoy whichever side the best view is on. 

 

 

Cwmystwyth would have been an interesting station as well, probably a passing loop, the slate workings, and a goods shed for the village, but perched high up on the mountainside.  A steam-powered snowplough would definitely be needed up there, and I can't help thinking of something based on a Shay...  V of R loading gauge to be used for all stock used for through working.  Gradients between Devil's Bridge and Pont-ar-Elan are going to be severe even with a short tunnel at the summit, and curvature between Devil's and Cwmystwyth is going to be at proper Vale of Rheidol radii as well...

[The Johnster]

On 15/11/2023 at 15:21, whart57 said:

There was a photograph in a book once that showed how the sharper curves of narrow gauge made gradients less fierce and reduced the need for earthworks. The reason is that sharper curves meant a line could hug the contours better and thus stay at the same level for longer rather than either going up and down or requiring great chunks of hillside to be dug away.

 

Also, as a generalisation, narrow gauge engines had smaller diameter driving wheels. which enabled them to cope with steeper gradients as well.  The Small Englands as built could haul 60-wagon empty slate trains up the FR's 12 miles at 1 in 100, and Little Wonder could manage 100.

[whart57]

18 hours ago, sir douglas said:

a railway that is not real, there for imaginary railway, maybe youre thinking a bit too philosophical, the thread is about any railways that dontt exist, be it route or history

 

But this is a model railway discussion board. When we build layouts there is only a limited amount we can do to fix the location, fixing that is usually done through landscape or building design. Many of the suggestions made here would simply be a model of a real railway with different nameboards. More creative would be imaginary railways that are totally imaginary, like the London and Surrey Railway I have proposed either here or on other forums. Or they would be based on a real company but pushed out far from its home base, like the Horsham SECR example I have posted. Where I proposed the SECR station would be would be in a part of town where the architecture is unmistakeably Sussex. Or perhaps the imaginary part of the layout design allows a depiction of an unusual railway feature that is of interest. I have provided an example of this with my suggestions of there being a thriving town instead of a hamlet and abandoned church at Reculver on the North Kent coast and that this is served by neighbouring terminals of the SER and LCDR, which go on to be a terminus with both third rail electrics and DEMUs on a non-electrified route. We have had the another GWR branch line terminus "imaginary" layout in the hobby since the 1950s, in fact ever since Cyril Freezer proposed Ashburton as a layout design in one of the earliest Railway Modellers. I like to see imaginations rip and fly further than that.

[whart57]

13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Also, as a generalisation, narrow gauge engines had smaller diameter driving wheels. which enabled them to cope with steeper gradients as well.  The Small Englands as built could haul 60-wagon empty slate trains up the FR's 12 miles at 1 in 100, and Little Wonder could manage 100.

All piston engines use a smaller driver diameter as a way of coping with gradients or hauling heavier loads at the cost of speed. Only with IC driven cars and trucks that is hidden away inside the gearbox.