Imaginary Railways

[melmerby]

As a child I always admired Coniston station and its little branch train (and the wonderful Furness Railway gondola that sat as an abandoned shell down beside the lake).

Have you been on the "restored" Gondola. It's a nice ride up and down the water.

It's a pity the NT had to radically alter it though. AFAIK there isn't much left of the original Furness Railway vessel.

IMHO the elevated bridge spoils it's lines.

 

Keith

[MikeOxon]

Have you been on the "restored" Gondola. It's a nice ride up and down the water.

It's a pity the NT had to radically alter it though. AFAIK there isn't much left of the original Furness Railway vessel.

IMHO the elevated bridge spoils it's lines.

 

Keith

According to 'Wikipedia', the 'rebuild' involved "a new hull, engine, boiler and most of the superstructure." - it sounds a bit like the old knife that had had 7 new blades and 4 new handles!

 

The new boiler is, apparently, to the same design as the Ffestiniog locomotive 'Prince' so, perhaps, we could regard this ship as the railway equivalent of an 'Amphicar' - scope for some interesting models there

 

.

SY Gondola - Engine Room

[The Johnster]

Or it could be regarded as a modernisation of Spooner's Boat to 19th century standards...

 

It's probably common practice for all I'd know, but is this unique in using a railway locomotive boiler on a steamboat?  And, given the cylinder layout, are Boston Lodge thinking of building a Heisler?  After all, the Festiniog/Welsh Highland operation is probably the world's largest current operator of articulated steam locos; why not follow it with a Kitson-Meyer?

Edited September 12, 2017 by The Johnster

[Corbs]

Or it could be regarded as a modernisation of Spooner's Boat to 19th century standards...

 

It's probably common practice for all I'd know, but is this unique in using a railway locomotive boiler on a steamboat?  And, given the cylinder layout, are Boston Lodge thinking of building a Heisler?  After all, the Festiniog/Welsh Highland operation is probably the world's largest current operator of articulated steam locos; why not follow it with a Kitson-Meyer?

Well they did have a Meyer at one time!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarch_(locomotive)

 

That may be a good model, a 'what if the FR had actually converted Monarch for use?'

 

I realise that may be better in the 'imaginary locomotives' thread.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Corbs

[MikeOxon]

......... I realise that may be better in the 'imaginary locomotives' thread.

yes, it's always difficult to know what to do when one thread wanders into the territory of another

[The Johnster]

yes, it's always difficult to know what to do when one thread wanders into the territory of another

 

 

I am afraid I was allowing my imaginaries to mix themselves up. Mea Culpa!

[runs as required]

Or it could be regarded as a modernisation of Spooner's Boat to 19th century standards...

It's probably common practice for all I'd know, but is this unique in using a railway locomotive boiler on a steamboat?  ...

No, not unique.

William Hedley's 1813 'Wylam Dilly' locomotive was used to power a tug boat for towing loaded keels down the Tyne to load onto colliers during a keelmen's strike in 1822. It is preserved today in the National Museum of Scotland as a land locomotive once more.

The keelmen rowed the 'keels' (small boats carrying coal and lead) down from staithes like Lemington (from Wylam colliery) or Blaydon on the upper tidal reaches of the Tyne down to the sea going sailing colliers in the lower Tyne.They are the subject of the song 'The Keelrow'.

The Keelmen's radical benefactor Joseph Cowen MP of Stella Hall, Blaydon (first Chair of the Tyne Improvement Commission) promoted Keelmen's Regattas, the famous "Blaydon Races".for pitmen, and not least, funded and advised Garibaldi and his Red Shirts.

dh

[The Johnster]

Common practice then...

 

This little excursion of Wylam Dilly, a locomotive I'd always thought had spent it's entire working life at Wylam, is fascinating stuff; thank you runs.  Puffing Billy is more famous, but perhaps not quite as well travelled.

Edited September 13, 2017 by The Johnster

[MikeOxon]

No, not unique.

William Hedley's 1813 'Wylam Dilly' locomotive was used to power a tug boat ..................

 

and there I was, about to mock up a sketch of Brunel's solution to crossing the Severn, only to find that "truth is stranger than fiction"

 

What's the source of the illustration?

[runs as required]

and there I was, about to mock up a sketch of Brunel's solution to crossing the Severn, only to find that "truth is stranger than fiction"

What's the source of the illustration?

I've had that image on my hard disk for a good few years now, but a darker version of it as an engraving can be found here on the National Museum of Scotland web site

It has to be said that it is a rather fanciful rendering:

• the small boat looks unfeasibly unstable beneath the locomotive;
• the view of the Newcastle skyline is downstream of the low arched masonry bridge that replaced the old inhabited bridge washed away by the great flood of 1771; itself replaced by Armstrong's hydraulic swing bridge to allow his gunboats built at Elswick to pass.
• Wylam Dilly is supposed to have towed the loaded keels from the end of the 5'0" gauge Wylam waggonway at Lemington.down to the bridge where transhipment was made to the sea going colliers..It looks incapable of passing under the arches (just visible at the extreme left behind the sea going collier).
• dh

[lanchester]

That was once one of their targets.

If the GC had reached Birmingham would they then have tried to reach North Wales to link up with their other lines, that would have given them a way to get to Manchester from another direction.

 

Another GC might have been was if they had actually amalgamated with the SE when they were both under Watkin's management. That would have given them a through route from Manchester to the South coast where there were also ambitions for a Channel Tunnel (partly dug) and on to Paris.

 

Keith

The GC, or more accurately its predecessor the MS&L,might have got closer to North Wales if either of the schemes (in about 1845 and again in the early 1860s) for a line from Macclesfield through Chelford and on to make junctions capturing traffic from Liverpool, Birkenhead and Chester, had gone ahead (I think at least one of these got its Act). The MS&L was certainly implicated in these.

[petethemole]

 

I've had that image on my hard disk for a good few years now, but a darker version of it as an engraving can be found here on the National Museum of Scotland web site

It has to be said that it is a rather fanciful rendering:

• the small boat looks unfeasibly unstable beneath the locomotive;
• the view of the Newcastle skyline is downstream of the low arched masonry bridge that replaced the old inhabited bridge washed away by the great flood of 1771; itself replaced by Armstrong's hydraulic swing bridge to allow his gunboats built at Elswick to pass.
• Wylam Dilly is supposed to have towed the loaded keels from the end of the 5'0" gauge Wylam waggonway at Lemington.down to the bridge where transhipment was made to the sea going colliers..It looks incapable of passing under the arches (just visible at the extreme left behind the sea going collier).
• dh

 

 

The Tyne keel had a broad beam and the standard coal load was 21.25 tons, so I doubt it would have been as unstable as it looks.

[The Johnster]

To which I'd add that the 'keels' look very bow heavily loaded with coal, yet manage to be on an even, er, keel.  Artistic licence, and 'Dilly' may have had her chimney removed for the occasion; she does not look safe at all, does she?  The wake suggests that she was driving some sort of side paddle wheel arrangement, which is what you'd expect in 1822, presumably taken off her axles and 'sitting down' in her keel more than the illustration suggests. 

 

Would Dillyinboatform and the keels (brilliant name for a band) have had the draught to pass under the arches at low tide?  The illustration apparently shows high water, and if she'd come under the bridge earlier and then laid up waiting for the tide, it might explain the apparent arch anomaly.

 

No, not unique.

William Hedley's 1813 'Wylam Dilly' locomotive was used to power a tug boat for towing loaded keels down the Tyne to load onto colliers during a keelmen's strike in 1822. It is preserved today in the National Museum of Scotland as a land locomotive once more.

aquatic wylam dilly.jpg

The keelmen rowed the 'keels' (small boats carrying coal and lead) down from staithes like Lemington (from Wylam colliery) or Blaydon on the upper tidal reaches of the Tyne down to the sea going sailing colliers in the lower Tyne.They are the subject of the song 'The Keelrow'.

The Keelmen's radical benefactor Joseph Cowen MP of Stella Hall, Blaydon (first Chair of the Tyne Improvement Commission) promoted Keelmen's Regattas, the famous "Blaydon Races".for pitmen, and not least, funded and advised Garibaldi and his Red Shirts.

dh

 

He advised biscuits in red shirts at the Blaydon Races?

Edited September 13, 2017 by The Johnster

[Zomboid]

The GC, or more accurately its predecessor the MS&L,might have got closer to North Wales if either of the schemes (in about 1845 and again in the early 1860s) for a line from Macclesfield through Chelford and on to make junctions capturing traffic from Liverpool, Birkenhead and Chester, had gone ahead (I think at least one of these got its Act). The MS&L was certainly implicated in these.

 

Didn't the MS&L/ GC actually get to north Wales? Wrexham Central station and the rest of the Borderlands line was (according to Wikipedia) was built by the Wrexham, Mold & Connah's Quay Railway, which was then bought the GCR.

[runs as required]

Signaller69, on 30 Jun 2017 - 21:28, said in post #203 on his Crinan Extension layout here ...

Many thanks for the suggestion, as for the history of the line, well I've been vague about that as I'm still working on it! As depending which I go with, it either left the NB West Highland line at Arrochar & Tarbet (a somewhat difficult and graded route to put it mildly), or the Caledonian Oban line at Loch Awe (much easier but rather long in terms of time taken to get to Glasgow)! All that is certain is that the Engineers were Simpson & Wilson, with Robert

MacAlpine & Sons being the contractors once the Mallaig Extension was completed in 1901. . . Hence the similarity in railway buildings to the Mallaig line...

Continuation from post #203...

I've just enjoyed looking over Sir William's shoulder exploring the NLoS 'side by side’ maps of the area. It does seem to have been more practicable to propose an Imaginary Railway down from the C&O at Dalmally down the SE side of Loch Awe to Crinan.

Besides the grain of the land being against the branch off the West Highland at Arrochar & Tarbet, the shores of Loch Fyne already had long established access via the Puffers to the Clyde.

However tracking down the far NW side of Loch Awe would have opened up new areas, not merely paralleling the road along the SW shore. But a problem would have been the detour around the deep arm that drains Loch Awe into Loch Etive.

As to the C&O's 'long way round to Glasgow', the NB had put in the spur down to the C&O at Crianlarich in 1897. One would imagine Sir William would have had enough clout to see that traffic to Glasgow from the Crinan Extension could be routed via that link to the West Highland.

dh

Edited September 13, 2017 by runs as required

[Signaller69]

Didn't the MS&L/ GC actually get to north Wales? Wrexham Central station and the rest of the Borderlands line was (according to Wikipedia) was built by the Wrexham, Mold & Connah's Quay Railway, which was then bought the GCR.

They certainly did, LNER railmotors were trialed up to Brymbo too, and elderly Pollitt saddle tanks (J61 iirc?) worked Connahs Quay Docks into BR days. Even "Buckjumpers" worked into Wales on the Buckley Branch of the WM&CQ before it went over to Western Region.

[pete_mcfarlane]

I think they missed a trick with the Channel Tunnel.  Trains go through at a set speed, right?  And the scenery down there is really dull, right?  So, why not paint panels of a cartoon telling a story in moving pictures on the wall to entertain the punters as they pass beneath the waves, lit by the carriage lighting.  Something involving underwater tunnels flooding, fishes swimming past the windows, that sort of thing...

 

Or go for the hi-tech solution, as the Swiss have done on the Zurich airport shuttle. Not the greatest video - it's far more impressive in real life....

 

[melmerby]

Why not have a planetarium like on a Japanese train:

 

http://www.jreast.co.jp/E/joyful/galaxysl.html?src=gnavi

 

And it's steam hauled as well.

 

Keith

Edited September 13, 2017 by melmerby

[TheSignalEngineer]

When I was a guard at Canton in the 70, we would respond to passengers' complaints that such and such a train was running late with 'well, the Severn Tunnel's under water, you know'.  You had usually moved away by the time they'd realised...

There was a Conductor on Cross Country around the time of the invasion of Iraq whose standard reply to passenger complaints was "Don't you know there's a war on?"

[TheSignalEngineer]

My favourite imaginary layout which i would like to build was an extension of the West Cornwall from Truro Newham to Indian Queens to tap into the China Clay traffic and take it to a new deep water port on the River Fal. This joined a proposed line from the Bodmin and Wadebridge thus giving a direct link between north and West Cornwall.

Edited September 13, 2017 by TheSignalEngineer

[The Johnster]

Or go for the hi-tech solution, as the Swiss have done on the Zurich airport shuttle. Not the greatest video - it's far more impressive in real life....

 

 

 

But, but... where's the driver?

 

It's just the kind of guy I am, but I'd find it very hard to resist video of an oncoming train...

[Signaller69]

Continuation from post #203...

I've just enjoyed looking over Sir William's shoulder exploring the NLoS 'side by side’ maps of the area. It does seem to have been more practicable to propose an Imaginary Railway down from the C&O at Dalmally down the SE side of Loch Awe to Crinan.

Besides the grain of the land being against the branch off the West Highland at Arrochar & Tarbet, the shores of Loch Fyne already had long established access via the Puffers to the Clyde.

However tracking down the far NW side of Loch Awe would have opened up new areas, not merely paralleling the road along the SW shore. But a problem would have been the detour around the deep arm that drains Loch Awe into Loch Etive.

As to the C&O's 'long way round to Glasgow', the NB had put in the spur down to the C&O at Crianlarich in 1897. One would imagine Sir William would have had enough clout to see that traffic to Glasgow from the Crinan Extension could be routed via that link to the West Highland.

dh

Can't fault any of that, as I understand it the link at Crianlarich between C&O/NB lines was for freight transfer between the competing companies; afaik it was not used for regular passenger trains until the C&O Crianlarich - Stirling section closed in the 60s and there was then no choice! I doubt the Contractor would have had much clout with 2 rival companies, unless they shared running of the "Crinan Branch" possibly?

 

The Loch Fyne route from Arrochar is my preferred make believe, as it would be shorter and would serve the only largish settlement at Lochgilphead, a fishing port at the other end of the Canal. A 1 in 35/40 slog for several miles after leaving Arrochar is envisaged (and probably well off the mark!) but this may account for the "D180" restriction, ie 180 ton (5 coach) maximum load.

 

All good fun!

Martyn.

[runs as required]

The Loch Fyne route from Arrochar is my preferred make believe, as it would be shorter and would serve the only largish settlement at Lochgilphead, a fishing port at the other end of the Canal. A 1 in 35/40 slog for several miles after leaving Arrochar is envisaged (and probably well off the mark!) but this may account for the "D180" restriction, ie 180 ton (5 coach) maximum load.

All good fun!

Martyn.

 

Looks like you have hit THE BIGTIME

It could be modelling Scottish railway layouts is set to become the next TV Smash Hit successor to Bakeoff !

Announced in today's G2 - on Channel 4 in November:

"teams will compete to construct a miniature network through 72 miles of Scottish Landscape"

Can Presenter Dick Strawbridge become the Mary Berry of tiny trains?

Love Productions has a great track record having turned patisserie into big business..."

 dh.

 

PS

Did you read Backtrack for April and June 2015 ?

"The Development of Railways to North West Scotland: Giving Access to the Western Isles"

In Part One Peter Tatlow looks at some initial construction plans.

in Part Two Peter Tatlow explains how the Government became involved.

As I recall from the articles, the Government in the years after the Mallaig Extension were very keen on opening up formerly remote underdeveloped areas - rather like the Irish Narrow gauge and the promotion of Light Railways (before war surplus cheap motor lorries killed rail after the Great War).

Edited September 14, 2017 by runs as required

[Horsetan]

Or go for the hi-tech solution, as the Swiss have done on the Zurich airport shuttle. Not the greatest video - it's far more impressive in real life....

 

 

Hmmm, that wasn't there back in 2006.....

[Signaller69]

Looks like you have hit THE BIGTIME

It could be modelling Scottish railway layouts is set to become the next TV Smash Hit successor to Bakeoff !

Announced in today's G2 - on Channel 4 in November:

dh.

 

PS

Did you read Backtrack for April and June 2015 ?

"The Development of Railways to North West Scotland: Giving Access to the Western Isles"

As I recall from the articles, the Government in the years after the Mallaig Extension were very keen on opening up formerly remote underdeveloped areas - rather like the Irish Narrow gauge and the promotion of Light Railways (before war surplus cheap motor lorries killed rail after the Great War).

Ha ha thanks, funnily enough our Club (in North Wales!) had an invitation a few months ago to help with building that track across Scotland (along Loch Ness iirc) from the production company, but there were no takers. Will be interested to see what happens with it.

 

No I've not seen those issues of Backtrack, will have to check if the Club has a copy of them, thanks for the info.

 

Martyn.