Sharpest Main Line Curve

[Southernman46]

On those criteria, the delta junction on the DLR must surely be the winner.

 

Ah - but I wouldn't claim we are anything like a main line but some of the track geometry is definitely eye-popping 

[Alister_G]

Not sure if you can really call it "main line" but it was standard gauge and run by BR, the Cromford and High Peak Railway claimed to have one of the tightest curves: Gotham Curve, which was 2.5 chains.

 

Al.

[brianusa]

But where on the main line is the tightest for express passenger trains?

 

Brian.

[hexagon789]

Isn't Morpeth the tightest curve on a 'proper' mainline? I've heard it said that the curve turns the ECML 96 degrees and it currently has a limit of 50 mph either way, it was 40 in the early 1960s. And I think the curve at Witham leading onto the Braintree branch must be one of the tightest on an open passenger railway line in Britain, I believe the limit round the curve is just 5 mph.

[GordonC]

The curve at Carstairs from the platforms to the Edinburgh line is pretty tight - is that 15mph and canted the wrong way too?

 

also Earlestown from the Manchester to Warrington line is pretty sharp ... although I have seen empty coal hoppers go through there at a surprisingly rapid rate!

[Poor Old Bruce]

Lifford Curve at Kings Norton is pretty tight and restricted to 10mph.

 

The only surprise to me was that they had actually found some legitimate traffic to send round it, given that it's a pretty pointless piece of track, unless you're running diversions, and even that usefulness seems a bit overegged.

 

In the days before HSTs some of the York to Bournemouth (or similar) trains took that route to save running round in New Street. From Derby they went round via Camp Hill and Lifford Curve to enter New Street fron the west end then over the same bit of track around St. Andrews Jct to Bordesley Jct and on to the Great Western line to Banbury. There was a lunch-time train where you could see someone off from Derby on the Bournemouth train, catch the Devonian, and meet them as they arrived at New St.

 

In addition to Syston North and Firsby which have already been mentioned, Trent East to Trent North near Long Eaton is pretty tight and heavily used by both passenger and freight including Lindsay oil tankers. 10mph leading into an adverse camber junction

 

The old Trent North Curve from Trent Station North Junction to Sawley Junction was pretty tight too and used by expresses.

[MarkC]

Syston North curve and the Whitby branch at Grosmont are both pretty tight

There's at least one curve between Grosmont and Whitby that precludes Pacifics reaching Whitby on a regular basis. 60007 did it once, iirc, but it won't be happening again...

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The Northam curve was I believe about four and a half chains before the easing in the 1980s. My recollection is that the mk1 based trams that operated London-Soton had the standard Pullman gangway and knuckle couplers adjusted to allow sufficient flexibility. 

 

KX station throat had a lot of reputedly five to six chain pointwork leading onto the mainline platforms 8 and 10, over which mk1 and mk2 passenger stock operated in the 1960s. The gruntings and groanings that accompanied the fairly abrupt sideways transitions were impressive.

[D854_Tiger]

This is the one I most remember the squeal from https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Retford/@53.3159585,-0.9516565,18z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x4878531551c7c1fb:0x37f4dc33dbb2962a!8m2!3d53.321356!4d-0.945503

regards

 

Oooh ..... that might just be the winner.

 

Did that curve once, when it was still being used rather more than it is today, I had forgotten that one.

 

Very little uses it nowadays but apparently, in the days when freight still used it, the whole of Retford could be woken up if it was the wrong time of day.

[Grovenor]

Before the underpass was built GC line trains used it to call at the platforms, my recollection was of a trip Eastbound with a lot of squealing going on. It was double track then so the radius would have been less going Westbound, which I don't remember. No idea now how I got back, or even where i was going. Rounding that curve seems to be the only thing memorable about the trip.

Regards

Keith

[The Bigbee Line]

The curve between Archcliffe Junction and Hawkesbury Street Junction at Dover must be a contender, as must the junction on the other side of Dover (Buckland Junction).

Does the former curve into platform 6 at Dover Marine count?

[The Johnster]

Isn't Morpeth the tightest curve on a 'proper' mainline? I've heard it said that the curve turns the ECML 96 degrees and it currently has a limit of 50 mph either way, it was 40 in the early 1960s. And I think the curve at Witham leading onto the Braintree branch must be one of the tightest on an open passenger railway line in Britain, I believe the limit round the curve is just 5 mph.

[bike2steam]

The Northam curve was I believe about four and a half chains before the easing in the 1980s. 

Indeed, that was the main reason why the idea of transferring some of the surviving Stanier pacifics, in 1964, to the Bournemouth line was scuppered.

[Ken.W]

Even on the ECML King Edward South to KEB North is really tight!

 

Still not that tight compared to others mentioned, 30 mph. The curve through Newcastle West Jnc (off the North end of KEB), and through the through platforms, is 20 - still also ECML.

 

Isn't Morpeth the tightest curve on a 'proper' mainline? I've heard it said that the curve turns the ECML 96 degrees and it currently has a limit of 50 mph either way, it was 40 in the early 1960s. 

 

Yes, Morpeth is 50 both directions, but still beaten though by KEB South Curve, and Newcastle, as above

 

The curve at Carstairs from the platforms to the Edinburgh line is pretty tight - is that 15mph and canted the wrong way too?

 

Carstairs Curve would also be my nomination, and it's 10 mph,  yes with reverse cant*. For northbound trains this is immediately followed by the double curve of the main to main crossover, also 10, which resulted in when class 90s regularly worked EC MkIV sets their being prohibited from propelling in push-pull mode if the loco was fitted with screw couplings, in case of buffer lock

 

* And just to make it more interesting, also with a OHL neutral section

Edited July 25, 2017 by Ken.W

[t-b-g]

Whisker Hill Curve at Retford is, according to Roy Jackson (who built it dead to scale in 4mm:1ft  EM Gauge) "The tightest main line curve in the country".

 

In 4mm scale, it works out at just a shade over 3' radius.

 

It may not fit the criteria of being negotiated by all locos and stock as some were banned (Austerity 2-8-0 locos were banned tender first after one derailed) but it was certainly used regularly by main line trains on the GCR route until the "dive under" was built and I have been round it on a DMU before Retford station was rebuilt. It is very noisy indeed when a train goes round and the sound can be heard from well across town.

 

That doesn't answer the query about points but for the fixing the location and for the size of the radius I would be very surprised if there was anything much smaller than that.

[bike2steam]

As a kiddy 'train-spotter' at Stratford station in the late 50's/early 60's the approaching freights from Temple Mills yard gaining height to the GEML could be heard because of the load screech of wheel flanges on the rail sides, If it was one of those disastrous D8400's, on a transfer freight to Goodmayes, or Ripple Lane yards, it would be flat out at 5MPH.

[Poor Old Bruce]

If you look at the various diagrams on the Barrowmore web site, they often give the minimum curvature, certainly for locos. The BR Standard steam locos were all defined as 4.5 chains. Most main line diesels are also in the 4 to 5 chain bracket although newer ones are given in metres e.g. HST Power Car 80m. Coaching Stock doesn't seem to have any figure but DMUs have (3.5 ch where I looked). Most wagon diagrams are marked with some Carflats being noted as 3 chains which may give some indication of coaching stock capability.

 

Passenger lines of 10 chains or less should have check rails fitted to the inner rail. I think it is 5 chains for freight only lines.

 

As an aside, Gotham curve on the C&HPR has been mentioned. A diesel shunter was tried out but rejected. I believe it was a 350hp jackshaft one which the diagram states has a minimum radius of 4.5 chains. No wonder it complained!

Edited July 25, 2017 by Poor Old Bruce

[eastwestdivide]

Whisker Hill Curve at Retford ...

For those who want to experience it, PSUL lists four trains (two return trips):

 

0546 Sheffield - Retford 

0701 Retford - Leeds

 

2013 / 2018 Huddersfield - Retford

2245 Retford - Sheffield

 

Realtimetrains confirms that both trips used it yesterday.

 

Edited for messing up the URL

Edited July 25, 2017 by eastwestdivide

[LBRJ]

The curve at Retford is certainly the tightest one I have ever seen.

I recall a 142 taking half an hour to negotiate it on a very hot day!

[bike2steam]

In 4mm scale, it works out at just a shade over 3' radius.

At 3 feet radius in 4mm that equates to about 3.5 chains - er that's a bit tight. 

[t-b-g]

At 3 feet radius in 4mm that equates to about 3.5 chains - er that's a bit tight. 

 

That is why I mentioned it on a thread about tight curves!

[70b]

Sometimes I am waiting for the 0650 to KX from Retford and I can confirm the >0546 Sheffield - Retford 
0701 Retford - Leeds< comes in at the high level platform 2 and goes out again the way it came, round what I now know to be Whisker Hill Curve, and you can hear it coming round that curve for ages before it appears, I always imagine its a Pacer from the noise but its usually a 158 or something like. I'm not sure why it and the last train of the day doesn't use the low-level platforms.
 

[101]

I'm not sure why it and the last train of the day doesn't use the low-level platforms.

 

More than likely for route retention.

[Hobby]

The only surprise to me was that they had actually found some legitimate traffic to send round it, given that it's a pretty pointless piece of track, unless you're running diversions, and even that usefulness seems a bit overegged.

 

 

It's used daily by LM units going to and from New Street/Tyseley, it avoids gumming up Proof House... It's also used when the stand by units are taken out of the centre roads in New Street to be used to replace duff or late running services... They call it "going round the houses" - New Street - Selly Oak - Lifford - Camphill - St Andrews Junction - New Street... I've taken HSTs and Voyagers round it when there have been problems at Proof House... It's far from "overegged" I assure you... 

 

On the round the houses run, btw, there is another sharp curve when you turn left off the Camphill line and head towards New Street via the Derby lines, the restriction is 15mph on the inner line and 20 on the outer...

Edited July 27, 2017 by Hobby

[Guest pboeast]

I would say the one on a major mainline that I know of would be Morpeth. One more would be the Peterborough Dog-Leg (Now Ironed Out) or the former Lord Harborough's Curve. The sharpest one I know of is on the Brighton Line, a diversion for the Bermondsey Dive-Under