When TT3 was the next Big Thing

[rodshaw]

I certainly agree that today's top market locos and stock are over-engineered. And over-priced. Who wants umpteen fiddly parts to fit when many of them aren't even seen? And (if you're into DCC) who wants going on for 40 different sound effects when all you really need besides the engine noise are lights, a horn and a bell?

 

But people obviously buy them, and get great enjoyment out of them. Some pre-order and will pay top whack as soon as the models appear. So it's horses for courses, at least nowadays you can model what you like. Your layout doesn't have to look like all the rest, that's up to you.

 

I like to see old layouts at shows and they are always fun but for me, the old models of the 60s and 70s are too crude, particularly in mechanical terms, and so are the track and scenics that went with them. The Hornby Railroad type products are just about right (or would be, if I still modelled British outline).

 

But, back in the 60s, and harking back to this topic's title, TT-3 and the like were the state of the art and no doubt some found them too refined. There were probably many ageing modellers at the time lamenting the passing of tinplate, clockwork and gauge 1, because they were more fun!

[5050]

Regarding 'Wickham', the 'author' of this layout was the late Chris Matthewman who had several EM layouts all constructed in a similar vein using brick papers etc. to make a thoroughly believable overall scene without the need for infinite detailing.  He had 'Striving' and Striven' as well, each built in the same way.  The stock was mostly kit built locos, coaches etc. all built to a very high standard and they - and the layouts - always WORKED.  I believe the layouts are still extant under new ownership and occasionally appear at shows.  Chris had a very individual approach to his modelling which worked for him and he was extremely well regarded - even by the rivet counting brigade

[detheridge]

I like to see old layouts at shows and they are always fun but for me, the old models of the 60s and 70s are too crude, particularly in mechanical terms, and so are the track and scenics that went with them. The Hornby Railroad type products are just about right (or would be, if I still modelled British outline).

 

But, back in the 60s, and harking back to this topic's title, TT-3 and the like were the state of the art and no doubt some found them too refined. There were probably many ageing modellers at the time lamenting the passing of tinplate, clockwork and gauge 1, because they were more fun!

Yes, but....

The old models of the 60s and 70s,  (I dare say) were aimed at the toy market?

Just out of interest, does anyone know what the core market was for model railways at that time? Obviously serious model railway fans were attracted to kits and the more 'advanced' stuff (although I remember hearing a customer being told in Hamblings that Arthur Hambling would not stock Kitmaster or Airfix kits when they first arrived, possibly 'cos he thought that was cheating?), so was the main market for model railways younger kids - of which many of us here were that very market?

So the stuff of the 60s and 70s had to be made crude and mechanically over-engineered to bear the rigours of kids running their trains on the carpet or even in the garden on concrete (a boyhood friend at the time did just this).

More scale fans and those of an engineering bent went to Hamblings own products or Jamieson kits and were at home with heavy duty soldering irons and, in effect, miniature engineering principles.

 

There's a similar principle here with preserved railways: a friend on the W&L told me a few weeks ago that serious gricers and railway enthusiasts make up only around 10% of the total footfall on the railway. The rest just want a nice day out, a nice ride and perhaps some interesting old stock. They could care less about the number of rivets, the correct shade of paint, or whether a loco is in 1925 or 1935 condition.

In the case of model railways, the core market nowadays may be the same group who were kids in the 40s-60s, and have the time, discernment and (most important of all) the disposable income to buy all these incredible looking (but fragile) models of today.

 

Same with TT - designed again for the 'toy' market and those who were space starved and possibly low on cash. (The wealthier went for Hornby Dublo, and the really wealthy would go for Exley?) They wanted something that looked vaguely (by today's standards) like the real thing, was relatively cheap, and would last a long time. Until the serious advent of N gauge (Lone Star Treblo pointed the way, although their rubber band drive locos were possibly the epitome of naffness in performance, although the BR diesels had very nice die cast bodies) TT looked like th answer to a lot of would be modellers. Triang TT's standards were an improvement on Triang's original OO ones,

It may be that its the ultimate irony that we're all on the Collectabvle/Vintage forum waxing lyrically about these 'crude' examples of model railways. But in that very crudeness there's a lot of charm, and it invites a suspension of disbelief - the most obvious one being that our locos are powered by 12v electricity and not coal, oil and water.

[APOLLO]

Interesting layouts above. I have a few dog eared 1960's modelling mags from when I modeled in TT. They were fonts of knowledge and inspiration to me back then, and many still are. I find the current model railway magazines a tad boring, too much advertising and twee "perfect" layouts, still, each to their own.

 

I changed to OO in 1972 when we moved house all my TT was virtually worn out so a good time to start anew. Just started work also so I had a bit more money !!.

 

I agree regard the "system" layouts, Edward Beals West Midland was another, and he wrote a couple of interesting books about it. It was originally OO but he later converted to TT, opposite to what I did !!

 

As to model railway "atmosphere" this old O gauge layout is 100% 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/44856-day-trip-to-diggle/

 

By the way Garry what issue is the larger Lydney Junction plan from ? - As you can see i'm a bit of a Lydney fan !!

 

Interesting thread is this, I pop in often to watch progress !!

 

Brit15

[Golden Fleece 30]

By the way Garry what issue is the larger Lydney Junction plan from ? - As you can see i'm a bit of a Lydney fan !!

 

November 1965, the article "Like Topsy".  I too am a Lydney fan and have been since I saw it as a youngster in the 60's  I always liked my TT but as with most people I had TT and 00 and went on with 00 for a long time, then 0 then N but now back with TT. 

 

Other TT layouts are Longacre modernised is in April 1965 and Grandsmoor Central is in May 1965, Wenbury Junction is in July 1962.  I have only bought these recently and there are others I am after but not paying some of the prices asked, mine were all £3.00 or less including postage.

 

Garry

[sagaguy]

Regarding 'Wickham', the 'author' of this layout was the late Chris Matthewman who had several EM layouts all constructed in a similar vein using brick papers etc. to make a thoroughly believable overall scene without the need for infinite detailing.  He had 'Striving' and Striven' as well, each built in the same way.  The stock was mostly kit built locos, coaches etc. all built to a very high standard and they - and the layouts - always WORKED.  I believe the layouts are still extant under new ownership and occasionally appear at shows.  Chris had a very individual approach to his modelling which worked for him and he was extremely well regarded - even by the rivet counting brigade

I remember reading that Peter Denny of Buckingham fame described how he scribed the courses of Merco Smokey Brick paper with a blunt tool & rubbed in medicinal charcoal to weather it.It`s a pity that paper went off the market.

 

                              Ray.

[NCB]

The next stage of Lydney was described in "Like Lydney", RM November 1971. There was a further extended version, Lydney continued, of which I have the track plan but not sure of the issue; I know something about Lydney appeared in the January 1972 RM and think that's it. An empire indeed!

 

The first model railway empire I came across was Theo Pearson's North Midland, inspired stuff, possible the first such layout in OO. RM October 1957.

[APOLLO]

November 1965, the article "Like Topsy".  I too am a Lydney fan and have been since I saw it as a youngster in the 60's  I always liked my TT but as with most people I had TT and 00 and went on with 00 for a long time, then 0 then N but now back with TT. 

 

Other TT layouts are Longacre modernised is in April 1965 and Grandsmoor Central is in May 1965, Wenbury Junction is in July 1962.  I have only bought these recently and there are others I am after but not paying some of the prices asked, mine were all £3.00 or less including postage.

 

Garry

 

Thanks Garry - I've just found one on Ebay for £1.50 + postage. Worth it just for the TT nostalgia !!!

 

I remember Grandsmoor Central and the earlier Drylesthwaite & Wealdsend layouts at the Manchester exhibition.  I saw Longacre at an exhibition many moons ago. Wrenbury & Longacre I already have the mags. If I come across any other interesting TT layouts in my old (but incomplete) mag collection I'll post details.

 

Brit15

[detheridge]

November 1965, the article "Like Topsy".  I too am a Lydney fan and have been since I saw it as a youngster in the 60's  I always liked my TT but as with most people I had TT and 00 and went on with 00 for a long time, then 0 then N but now back with TT. 

 

Other TT layouts are Longacre modernised is in April 1965 and Grandsmoor Central is in May 1965, Wenbury Junction is in July 1962.  I have only bought these recently and there are others I am after but not paying some of the prices asked, mine were all £3.00 or less including postage.

 

Garry

Hi Garry,

if you recall my earlier post and if this is helpful to others searching for prized issues, you can find Model Railway mags very cheaply at some of the preserved lines - sometimes as little as 10p a copy.

My source is the Severn Valley Railway at Bewdley, and there are other outlets on the line with similar deals. Some lines won't even accept mags for secondhand sales.

Obviously the SVR is a long way from you, but you might find them nearer home?

 

Best wishes,

David.

Edited November 9, 2017 by detheridge

[Golden Fleece 30]

The next stage of Lydney was described in "Like Lydney", RM November 1971. There was a further extended version, Lydney continued, of which I have the track plan but not sure of the issue; I know something about Lydney appeared in the January 1972 RM and think that's it. An empire indeed!

 

I have already got these other two issues on order, earlier tonight,  so hopefully here soon.

 

Garry

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi Garry,

if you recall my earlier post and if this is helpful to others searching for prized issues, you can find Model Railway mags very cheaply at some of the preserved lines - sometimes as little as 10p a copy.

My source is the Severn Valley Railway at Bewdley, and there are other outlets on the line with similar deals. Some lines won't even accept mags for secondhand sales.

Obviously the SVR is a long way from you, but you might find them nearer home?

 

Best wishes,

David.

Thanks David, it must be 30 years since I last went to the SVR but often pop up to the NYMR.  I do carry a little list for when I go to shows but never thought of the preserved lines.

 

Garry

[locomad]

The next stage of Lydney was described in "Like Lydney", RM November 1971. There was a further extended version, Lydney continued, of which I have the track plan but not sure of the issue; I know something about Lydney appeared in the January 1972 RM and think that's it. An empire indeed!

 

.

Yes Lydney was plan of month RM Jan 72

[5050]

Hi Garry,

if you recall my earlier post and if this is helpful to others searching for prized issues, you can find Model Railway mags very cheaply at some of the preserved lines - sometimes as little as 10p a copy.

My source is the Severn Valley Railway at Bewdley, and there are other outlets on the line with similar deals. Some lines won't even accept mags for secondhand sales.

Obviously the SVR is a long way from you, but you might find them nearer home?

 

Best wishes,

David.

Magazines at 20p a pop at Wakefield Show 16/17/18 November.  Quite a few old Modellers (magazines - but probably also members and visitors!) and plenty of old Constructors.  Large carrier bags provided!

[Golden Fleece 30]

Here are some of the Type A track single and double isolating rails.  As Tri-ang never made any and I needed some for my layout I have sawn through the rail and glued a small piece of plastic in situ.  Once set this is filed down to rail height and the inside edge smoothed flush with the rail.  The outer edge is left a little larger for more strength as I may have to use a little Araldite on this edge.  I need isolating rails as I am wiring each piece of track, including points, to a common wire so there is no voltage drop and poor contact between fishplates. The wires will be soldered under the rail after grinding away a small section of plastic base and the procedure is not seen from above. The white will get painted brown if all this works.

 

Garry

Edited November 10, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[Il Grifone]

Hi Garry,

 

That's a very neat solution to an old problem. Dublo had these items in their range (essential with live crossings in the pointwork), but they were/are very flimsy as there is just a gap between the rail sections and weak polystyrene sleepers and rail fixings didn't help. The problems didn't help the financial position of Meccano Ltd. at all. The track wasn't cheap and being easily broken was not going to endear it to its users.

 

David

[Golden Fleece 30]

And here are some sections of track with dropper wires attached, colour coded too which is a change for me.  As you can see the frogs will be "live" but not quite the same way as Dublo/Peco, just non insulating as there is no actual frog which is one of the reasons I like Type A track.

 

Garry

Edited November 10, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[Golden Fleece 30]

Here is possibly the last Lydney track plan from RM January 1972.  It shows the lower level as a double track with Lydney town station having an extra 2 platforms.

 

Garry

[Golden Fleece 30]

I went to the Hull show at the weekend and the only TT for sale was this little collection on the club sales stand.  There was no price, just make a reasonable offer but I had no idea what value anything foreign is worth so left it.  Later I went back looking again and the chap selling said how about £15, I thought and then said how about £10 if you keep both controllers as I did not need them and he said fine.  I had no idea what I would do in order to try to make something British out of them, the wagon chassis's should not be a problem though.

 

The 4-6-2 is actually very, very heavy being a diecast body, probably more than a Dublo 0-6-2.  Due to the fact I would have to machine the wheel flange thickness to even go through Tri-ang Type A points I am undecided now as I have been told it is quite an expensive loco.

 

Once the body is off I will be able to see if it can be made to an ER type loco, another A4 comes to mind at the moment.

 

Garry

[APOLLO]

Nice find.

 

I once had a Rokal TT German pacific & 4 coaches. It wouldn't run on Tri-ang TT (type B) track, but was fine on GEM track & turnouts. I seem to remember having to move the frog guard rails out a little. Sold it when I went OO

 

Brit15

[Golden Fleece 30]

Here are a few shots of my projected small Type A track layout drawn in Scarm.  One or two places do not line up as I am cutting some track sections for specific locations. The signals are just guess work at the moment but I doubt too far out of what will be there.

 

Garry

[Golden Fleece 30]

Here is our little girl helping me with "our" layout.  Obviously she cannot spend too much time on it as she has to go to school and other activities, plus tools like the jigsaw etc are banned from her hands. She has operated my test layouts and helped at shows with mine and a friends layout.  Thankfully she has been brought up correctly saying things like "we like steam engines" and "we don't like diesels" lol.

 

Garry

[whart57]

Thankfully she has been brought up correctly saying things like "we like steam engines" and "we don't like diesels" lol.

 

Simon Kohler once told me that Hornby had to have steam engines in the starter sets aimed at children as children didn't think diesel engines were proper trains

[PatB]

Here are a few shots of my projected small Type A track layout drawn in Scarm.  One or two places do not line up as I am cutting some track sections for specific locations. The signals are just guess work at the moment but I doubt too far out of what will be there.

 

Garry

 

Shades of 60 Plans and none the worse for that .

[Golden Fleece 30]

Mine is loosely based around Mike Bryant's layout from Model Railway Constructor March 1958. I don't know if his was based on a Peco design or whether Peco based one around his. Mine has a couple of extra sidings, one on the lower level for a station and another on the upper level along with a loop line for exit to somewhere else. I used to have the Peco plan books but not seen them for a long time.

 

Garry

Edited November 15, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[Robert Shrives]

Good to see little hands hard at it - the experience alone will set up for future works. I have trained and shown various skills with hand  and power tools to both sexes on the Ffestinog Railway along with building/ DIY skills. It is a joy to find later own kitchens built or tiling done even fencing built, and of course baseboards. 

 

The layout looks a good one and will entertain many I am sure. the 3D render is quite amazing. my limited PC skills would defeat me so well done. Looking forward to more pictures and words.

 

As an aside of ebay recently I got a small selection of almost mint  TT booklets from the 1960s. All promising continued trade support for TT, even with 000 on the horizion. All talk about shrinking room and house sizes - nothing new under the sun it seems!

 

Robert