When TT3 was the next Big Thing

[Il Grifone]

Hi, Garry,

 

I am rather given to lecturing - my family always tell me to "Shut up" and I got"Are you a professor?" in one of those stupid on-line quizzes.....

 

I also have boxes full of Dublo (both 2 and 3 rail) Trix (bakelite (nasty IMHO) and fibre) and Tri-ang (Standard and Super4) collected over the years. Perhaps a clear out is called for. The family always say that instead of visiting toyfairs to buy more trains (I actually bought more road vehicles* at the last one! ), I should book a stall and sell some. (Rather a strange idea IMHO!     )

 

*I finally got the Budgie Leyland cattle truck I've being looking for and an Oxford 1941 Lincoln Convertible. I thought the latter was a bit large for H0, but checking I found it's spot on. It's just a huge machine in real life. (A 4.8 litre V12 engine, 2 tons weight and 18 feet long, but only 2 doors...)

 

EDIT

For punctuation - I had to break off to ferry SWMBO to ASDA....

 

(Feeble excuse, I know!)

Edited April 25, 2020 by Il Grifone

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi, Garry,

 

I am rather given to lecturing - my family always tell me to "Shut up" and I got "Are you a professor? in one of those stupid on-line quizzes.....

 

I also have boxes full of Dublo (both 2 and 3 rail) Trix (bakelite (nastyIMHO) and fibre) and Tri-ang (Standard and Super4) collected over the years. Perhaps a clear out is called for. The family always say that instead of visiting toyfairs to buy more trains (I actually bought more road vehicles* at the last one! ), I should book a stall and sell some. (Rather a strange idea IMHO!     )

 

*I finally got the Budgie Leyland cattle truck i've being looking for and an Oxford 1941 Lincoln Convertible. I thought the latter was a bit large for H0, but checking I found it's spot on. It's just a huge machine in real life. (A 4.8 litre V12 engine, 2 tons weight and 18 feet long, but only 2 doors...)

Hi David,  I get just the same with my wife saying "Just because you used to teach etc etc" as that is what I did lol.

 

I have to say I do have too much of what I don't need and a few times been selling things off at Toyfairs but end up spending the money on more of what I am doing at the time like TT now.  All I get then is "I thought you had enough and don't want anymore  "   Partners just do not understand lol.

 

I have to say all my Tri-ang Standard, Super 4, series 3, Trix Bakelite and fibre track went a long long time ago, unfortuntlely in those pre Ebay/Toyfair days it was the bin.

 

Garry

[Pacific231G]

 

 

I have to say I do have too much of what I don't need and a few times been selling things off at Toyfairs but end up spending the money on more of what I am doing at the time like TT now.  All I get then is "I thought you had enough and don't want anymore  "   Partners just do not understand lol.

 

 

Garry

You could just mention shoes but that might prove fatal .

 

ISTR that the late and legendary John Allen of Gorre and Daphetid fame had a policy of never buying anything he didn't have an immediate use for on his layout. I wish I could be that self-disciplined but OTOH I have several SNCF locos intended for a long planned layout that only come out when we take our group layout to shows but that would be very difficult to get hold of now.  I suppose that if you're a scratch builder then the must buy it now because it'll become unavailable thing doesn't apply at least not so much. .  

Edited August 22, 2017 by Pacific231G

[sagaguy]

I also get the "havn't you got enough yet,the house is full of trains"having received another Dublo 2 car EMU this morning.

 

Ray.

[Il Grifone]

You could just mention shoes but that might prove fatal .

 

ISTR that the late and legendary John Allen of Gorre and Daphetid fame had a policy of never buying anything he didn't have an immediate use for on his layout. I wish I could be that self-disciplined but OTOH I have several SNCF locos intended for a long planned layout that only come out when we take our group layout to shows but that would be very difficult to get hold of now.  I suppose that if you're a scratch builder then the must buy it now because it'll become unavailable thing doesn't apply at least not so much. .  

 

Back then, there was no real need to buy and hoard. Items remained in the catalogues once released (livery updates excluded) and there was always the local model shop.... Nowadays if you don't buy at once it's come and gone and only available at inflated 'collector' prices.

 

Most of my collection would be almost/completely irreplaceable.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Il Grifone

[sagaguy]

Back then, there was no real need to buy and hoard. Items remained in the catalogues once released (livery updates excluded) and there was always the local model shop.... Nowadays if you don't buy at once it's come and gone and only available at inflated 'collector' prices.

 

Most of my collection would be almost/completely irreplaceable.

And that is the problem,equipment that was plentiful in the 1960s is now highly priced,take for instance a Dublo emu trailer car for my motor car.I bought two of these in the early 1960s for about 17/6d each for an aborted project.I wish i`d got them now,a search on ebay throws up one in the last couple of weeks priced at a starting bid of £149.99.I have ordered a DCkits 501 trailer car kit so although it may not be dublo,my motor car will have a trailer.Same with Triang TT on ebay,if you want it,you pay the price for it,if you don`t,someone else will.

 

                             Ray.

 

                              Ray

Edited August 23, 2017 by sagaguy

[Golden Fleece 30]

And that is the problem,equipment that was plentiful in the 1960s is now highly priced,take for instance a Dublo emu trailer car for my motor car.I bought two of these in the early 1960s for about 17/6d each for an aborted project.I wish i`d got them now,a search on ebay throws up one in the last couple of priced at a starting bid of £149.99.I have ordered a DCkits 501 trailer car kit so although it may not be dublo,my motor car will have a trailer.Same with Triang TT on ebay,if you want it,you pay the price for it,if you don`t,someone else will.

 

                             Ray.

 

                              Ray

That's true Ray,

 

A Tri-ang TT Restaurant car in Blue and Grey has just gone for £179 and a couple of Blue and Grey bakes for £231, another pair made £197 and these were not mint and unboxed.  A few TT items are now out pricing some Dublo rarities.

 

My first brand new Dublo EMU trailer was sold off at half price making it 10/6d as were a lot of my maroon and green suburbans all from a cycle shop in Leeds.

 

Garry

[detheridge]

Things may well change. A few years ago HD on Ebay was priced sky high - even more so for Wrenn. Things seem to have calmed down a bit since then although you can still come across insane prices.

 

Regarding TT, prices may eventually fall. A member of the 3mm society told me a few years ago that there was quite an amount of TT coming onto their members' sales, as TT modellers (and presumably amongst that, 'collectors') were all falling off the perch, and such models were from executors sources, or friends of the dear departed.

 

As modellers as a whole are an ageing bunch (and I'm one of them), in future years might supply actually outstrip demand?

 

David.

[5050]

As modellers as a whole are an ageing bunch (and I'm one of them), in future years might supply actually outstrip demand?

 

David.

It's happening in pre-owned Railway books.  Quite a glut in the market and prices are falling

[Pacific231G]

Things may well change. A few years ago HD on Ebay was priced sky high - even more so for Wrenn. Things seem to have calmed down a bit since then although you can still come across insane prices.

 

Regarding TT, prices may eventually fall. A member of the 3mm society told me a few years ago that there was quite an amount of TT coming onto their members' sales, as TT modellers (and presumably amongst that, 'collectors') were all falling off the perch, and such models were from executors sources, or friends of the dear departed.

 

As modellers as a whole are an ageing bunch (and I'm one of them), in future years might supply actually outstrip demand?

 

David.

ISTR being told of a known tendency in "collectables" from comic books to toys and models to reach their peak value when those who had them as youngsters reach the age when they can afford to be collectors but have far less market value, even though rarer, when they precede most living memory. What that can mean is that an adult collector may spend a small fortune on stuff that was in the mass market when they were young but find later on when they (or their executors) want to sell it that it's worth far less. The implication seems to be that it's worth collecting stuff for your own enjoyment but don't expect to get your money back.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Pacific231G

[detheridge]

It's happening in pre-owned Railway books.  Quite a glut in the market and prices are falling

Yes indeed. On the SVR at Bewdley there's the 2857 railway coach, brim full of books at half price, and I've even seen bound volumes of MRC and RM in the past at £1 to clear the shelves...

 

As an aside, the 009 society has set up an executors service, not the least reason for which were the cases when dealers cherry picked the best models from grieving widows (who had no idea of the models value), or offered derisory amounts, relying on their ignorance.

Edited August 23, 2017 by detheridge

[NCB]

Regarding TT, prices may eventually fall. A member of the 3mm society told me a few years ago that there was quite an amount of TT coming onto their members' sales, as TT modellers (and presumably amongst that, 'collectors') were all falling off the perch, and such models were from executors sources, or friends of the dear departed.

 

As modellers as a whole are an ageing bunch (and I'm one of them), in future years might supply actually outstrip demand?

 

David.

 

I read a comment recently that the 3mm Society second hand sales was well stocked with Triang TT. Not sure it applies to in-demand stuff like the DMU though.

 

Nigel

[whart57]

If you want a DMU centre car then the 3mm Society is unlikely to be able to help. Within the Society though, second hand sales is more for recycling unbuilt kits and for spares, most members who are interested in Triang already have the more common stuff.

 

As to the future, well people are getting canny. When granddad drops off his perch some bright spark from the younger generation goes onto eBay to see what the going rate for his model railway might be, and if granddad did possess something unusual then onto eBay it goes. Then they contact the local model railway society and then finally an email pops up on the 3mm Society account. The guys from the Society then have to exert every diplomatic nerve because only the dross is left.

 

The message to likely executors is that the Society aim to set an honest and decent price for 3mm scale collections, but if the collection has been cherry picked then that isn't going to be very high. The Society's officers are after all stewards for members' funds so they cannot spend money on what they can't sell.

[Dava]

My personal view is that the best return on investment you get from Triang TT is from using and modeling in it, rather than possessing but not using it. I was fortunate in being able to build up and construct a good collection in the mid 70's-early 80's, which I got a lot of enjoyment from being a part of a group with club layouts and running the stock at exhibitions. The Triang range was very good of its time but it's impressive to see the range of much more accurate kits, at reasonable prices, now available in the scale.

 

Dava

[Il Grifone]

The advice given to collectors is to spend money only on the rare items in as good a condition as possible. These are seen as the 'best' investment*. That is not my idea of a collection - it should aim for at least one of everything, but then I collect for enjoyment and not investment. Trains are to run! (read 'play with' if you prefer).

 

* Both my wife and I had grandfathers who collected stamps. On selling their collections (somewhere to live is more important than some bits of paper however attractive, though some of the rarest stamps are actually quite ugly IMHO), the dealers (reputable  - I got two quotes for mine, which were identical - rather less than half than the sum spent buying them) basically looked for the rarities and offered their value and we were expected to throw the rest in with the deal....

[Pacific231G]

The advice given to collectors is to spend money only on the rare items in as good a condition as possible. These are seen as the 'best' investment*. That is not my idea of a collection - it should aim for at least one of everything, but then I collect for enjoyment and not investment. Trains are to run! (read 'play with' if you prefer).

 

* Both my wife and I had grandfathers who collected stamps. On selling their collections (somewhere to live is more important than some bits of paper however attractive, though some of the rarest stamps are actually quite ugly IMHO), the dealers (reputable  - I got two quotes for mine, which were identical - rather less than half than the sum spent buying them) basically looked for the rarities and offered their value and we were expected to throw the rest in with the deal....

Many years ago my father had a fairly large stamp collection that he was convinced was quite valuable though there were no rarities in it. After he died my mother gave it to me and I eventually sold it through someone I know to be utterly trustworthy and scrupulously honest (not a dealer!) To this day my sister won't believe that I wasn't cheated.

 

I tend to think that one difference between a collector and a modeller is that the collector wants one of everything while the modeller wants batches of some things and none of others- particularly wagons but also coaches "You've already got a Great Western cattle wagon, why do you need six more of them!!" 

[locomad]

Many years ago my father had a fairly large stamp collection that he was convinced was quite valuable though there were no rarities in it. After he died my mother gave it to me and I eventually sold it through someone I know to be utterly trustworthy and scrupulously honest (not a dealer!) To this day my sister won't believe that I wasn't cheated.

 

I tend to think that one difference between a collector and a modeller is that the collector wants one of everything while the modeller wants batches of some things and none of others- particularly wagons but also coaches "You've already got a Great Western cattle wagon, why do you need six more of them!!"

 

Very good way of putting it the difference between a Modeller and a collector, problem is some of us like the rarer models so both the collector and the modeller are willing or in some cases desperate to have a least one of the rare models.

 

HD Liverpool, Dorchester, and that damm track cleaning wagon spring to mind, plus would like a train load of them ICI bogie tank wagons, cause I like them, thing is just not going to get them.

 

As for stamps seems that while late relative collected every stamp that was posted to him over 70 years his collection is almost worthless, not so many people now collect them, and people paid companies (Franklin) to send them 1st editions on belief they would one day be valuable, hence loads about, glut in market.

 

Think same thing has happened with these limited edition wagons locos etc, there's thousands of different ones, some yes are rare, most people expected them to increase in value, majority have not.

 

On advantage of stamps though, they take less space

[5050]

My mother-in-law 'collected' (ie bought from magazine adverts) loads of those 'Collectors Plates' thinking they would be of great value for her children in the future.  Huh!  My missus got a 'series' of them, worth practically nowt now!  A complete waste of money.

 

I tried to tell her that at the time but I was poo-pooed so I kept quiet.  She would have been better putting the money in a Building Society - even with today's interest rates!

[Il Grifone]

A fairly safe bet, I think, is that anything sold as 'collectible' isn't. The 'Collectors' Plates' and similar 'tat' being a case in point. The auctioneer, when we sold some items from my father's estate, was quite scathing about such things and was proved right (as we expected!). First Day Covers are another thing no-one wants. (£2 each from a dealer so one can easily imagine what was paid for them.)

 

Grifone funds don't run to 'Liverpool', 'Dorchester' etc. so no problem there. I intend to fake a track cleaning wagon, but can't find a suitably tatty donor.... Why they thought it necessary to modify the casting I don't know, I would have thought it quite acceptable to leave it as a mineral wagon. Tri-ang after all just used the redundant TC box car moulding for theirs. Somehow I've managed to acquire three of them in different colours. I did manage to acquire a reasonable ICI bogie tanker without paying an arm and a leg, but the hopper wagon still eludes me.... (Wrenn ones are quite common, especially in fictitious P.O. liveries....) (I purposely don't collect Wrenn, though I'm not above using Wrenn parts to keep Dublo in action.

[locomad]

I intend to fake a track cleaning wagon, but can't find a suitably tatty donor.... Why they thought it necessary to modify the casting I don't know, I would have thought it quite acceptable to leave it as a mineral wagon.

I've a fake track cleaning wagon, brought as a fake some 27 odd years ago at a well known toy fair, it's a standard Dicast mineral wagon with two tubes added to fit cigarette filters in. The white metal sides were glued on and have fallen off.

 

I purchased it to clean the track, it's easier to replace the filters than the triang one which I also have, it works very well as I use iso-propanol now, just run it found on a normal mineral train. It's a good design simple and easy to use.

 

I have tried with some success fitting 800 grade wet&dry attached to small springs underneath, bit like 3 rail centre pick ups, with modern thin cigarette filters in centre, again using iso-propanol, really does clean stained nickel silver track.

[whart57]

A fairly safe bet, I think, is that anything sold as 'collectible' isn't. The 'Collectors' Plates' and similar 'tat' being a case in point. The auctioneer, when we sold some items from my father's estate, was quite scathing about such things and was proved right (as we expected!). First Day Covers are another thing no-one wants. (£2 each from a dealer so one can easily imagine what was paid for them.)

 

Grifone funds don't run to 'Liverpool', 'Dorchester' etc. so no problem there. I intend to fake a track cleaning wagon, but can't find a suitably tatty donor.... Why they thought it necessary to modify the casting I don't know, I would have thought it quite acceptable to leave it as a mineral wagon. Tri-ang after all just used the redundant TC box car moulding for theirs. Somehow I've managed to acquire three of them in different colours. I did manage to acquire a reasonable ICI bogie tanker without paying an arm and a leg, but the hopper wagon still eludes me.... (Wrenn ones are quite common, especially in fictitious P.O. liveries....) (I purposely don't collect Wrenn, though I'm not above using Wrenn parts to keep Dublo in action.

 

The iron rule is, and always has been, that an item is only worth what someone else is prepared to pay for it. Economic crashes from the Dutch Tulip mania in the 17th century to the recent banking crisis eight years ago are caused when enough people lose sight of that rule. As the Dutch found out four hundred years ago, paying loads of money for something because everyone else is will come unstuck when all of a sudden people think "what the hell, it's only a bloody flower".

 

The Dutch Tulip Mania is an interesting subject to read up on and there are some decent books on it. It's become a bit of an economic staple because it was almost a lab experiment in a way. What we can learn from it is that markets can be created which have little foundation on basic economics. The Tulip mania started as a competition between a handful of stupendously rich merchants (there were a few around at that time in Holland, this being the so-called Golden Age) to show off the most gaudy tulip flowers. The tulip had only just been imported from the Middle East and ironically the most prized blooms were actually infected with a virus though of course no-one knew that then. It was a gamble, because tulip breeding was barely understood at the time, but these merchants could afford to lose the thousands of guilders if the gamble failed. The money sloshing around in this trade attracted others though, and as more people piled into the market, there was a shortage of goods to trade. So the trade spread to more common varieties of tulip. Now, however, the people buying were not super-rich merchants wanting a tulip bloom to wow their friends or humiliate their rivals but people who had borrowed money to buy bulbs they would then seek to sell on at a large profit. When the market caught on to the fact that no-one would actually pay that much to plant those bulbs in the ground that the crash came.

 

The various "Collector's Markets" we have seen all follow the same pattern. They start out with a few wealthy individuals pursuing an interest. In stamp collecting they might have been interested in having good examples of the first stamps ever issued - the Penny Black or the Twopenny Blue for example, or coin collectors wanted the full set of coins in circulation in Elizabeth I's time. Or model train collectors chasing Bassett-Lowke originals. Then others get interested but they can't afford the real rarities so they collect something close - Hornby tinplate instead of Bassett-Lowke for example. As long as enough are interested then there is a viable market, it's when either the demand drops off or an over-supply has been engineered that things go wrong. With stamps and coins both happened - the collectors grew old and died and few younger people took up the hobby, and the unscrupulous tried to create fake rarities with special issues and commemoratives.

 

In the end, it's the underlying value that still rules. The rich merchants of Holland still pursued their perfect flower after the Tulip Mania crashed and burned, and the result was today's thriving flower and bulb industry in the Netherlands. Museums and the few serious collectors there are will still want to complete collections of 19th century stamps or 16th century coins, and things like a near perfect example of a Bassett-Lowke steamer still have an appeal beyond the model railway fraternity. As for the rest, well they are only worth what people will pay for them. If you aren't prepared to pay the price asked on eBay for something as an item then the chances are that that is not its value as an investment.

[laurenceb]

Henry Standon wrote in Radio Times only buy someting if you realy like it not because it might be valuable in the future because it probably wont. Bloke I knew had a model shop, people would go in and ask him what would be a good investment. He would point to a rack of cheap toys the equivelent of the old Matchbox two bob toys of the sixties. Most will not suvive unlike the socalled "collectables"

[Il Grifone]

The difference being that original 'Matchbox' in good condition (especially with their box) are worth something. The later ones and their imitations aren't. People do collect 'Hot Wheels' etc. but not so many.

 

The 1929 crash (and to a lesser extent the 2008 one) were caused by people borrowing to buy high risk shares*. When the market fell, as it inevitably will sooner or later, they were left deeply in the brown stuff and the bad loans brought down the banks. History is full of other examples - Dot Com is a recent one.

 

* All shares are high risk (some more than others of course). Someone once said to only invest what you can afford to lose.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Il Grifone

[Pacific231G]

Very good way of putting it the difference between a Modeller and a collector, problem is some of us like the rarer models so both the collector and the modeller are willing or in some cases desperate to have a least one of the rare models.

 

HD Liverpool, Dorchester, and that damm track cleaning wagon spring to mind, plus would like a train load of them ICI bogie tank wagons, cause I like them, thing is just not going to get them.

 

 

I think most of us fall into both camps to some extent. I've got far more stock than I'll ever use and some of it, though relevant to what I model, was bought either because it was way under priced so too much of a bargain to turn down, usually at local MRE second hand stalls, or just because I really liked it. I think the latter is probably fine but I've got rather too many examples of rolling stock I jsut need some of. Sooner or later I'm going to have to ruthlessly classify it into the usual four categories. Sort, Sell, Charity, Dump (mostly half finished projects that I really know never will be) .

 

I sometimes wish I had the skills to be a scratchbuilder (I am for many of my buildings) as then the sheer work involved in building something would be a definite barrier; impulse buying is one thing but impulse scratchbuilding quite another- or is it??!!  I guess that's one of the advantages of working in a specialist field such as 3mm/ft or S Scale.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Golden Fleece 30]

Where would we be without the internet? Just sat by the pool in Gran Canaria and still managed a Buy it Now M/N and tender. Just hope the wife doesn't find out lol.

 

As for Collectors v Modellers, it is open to many interpretations. I collect models but not a collector as such as I don't do it at any price, or, for things I have no interest in which is why I don't a blue diesel, blue and grey coaches or anything of the French models.

 

Regarding Dublo I do have a Dorchester, Liverpool, 3-rail EMU (genuine), Mallard with nickel wheels and an E3002 but all at a non inflated price just being lucky in the right place at the right time. My 48094 was in a box of locos and when I bought them I only knew of an 8F in the job lot. That job lot also included the very rare plain green ended EMU, front end that is without the moulded ridge for the Yellow.

 

Still don't have a Ludlow or 80059 as no bargains ever appeared.

 

Garry