Dear Hattons; time for something new in 1:148 scale

[Chris M]

N Gauge is not really a large segment of the UK Model Railway market, A pointer for my statement is Hattons themselves, if you receive Hattons regular Seasonal Best sellers Brochure, which they distribute to online order customers and occasionally in magazines, It would be noted that the average number of pages is 30-32, and for example the current edition has but 3 pages devoted to N Gauge, 3 pages devoted to 'other scales such as 009, 0 and control equipment etc and the remaining 25 pages feature 00 gauge.

 

I would add that as an N gauge Modeller since the late 60s I would like to see the sector grow, but I believe that a major concept that potential newcomers to the sector have is that it is simply too fiddly and expensive.

 

 

 

If they were to do a couple of years modelling Z Gauge they would not dismiss N so easily

 

personally I would like a few more SR EMUs in N

 

Having said all this the Garden Railway calls me!!

Good to find someone else who does N and also has a garden railway. I hope the garden railway is G scale like mine.

 

I did 00 for many years and then sold it all and moved to G in the garden. I didn't own any N gauge until 2013. Yes I do find it small and fiddly but if you want to create a whole scene in a relatively small space it is brilliant. I do use a magnifying glass for any modelling work in N but I don't see that as a problem. The choice of models is a bit restricted but must mainstream interest is catered for. I hope the DJM king makes it and I would love to see Farish stick one over Dapol by bringing out a new tooling class 50. Perhaps us N gaugers need to be more evangelical about our scale.

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Chris M

[dibber25]

I'm not so sure anyone has said, or suggested, "20% of OO", but once getting on for around 20% of the overall British model railway market. At one time, many years back, the banded about figures (although I'm not sure where they came from) were 80% OO, 15% N and 5% others. Since then there has been a lot of change - N probably up for a while and now falling along with OO as O grows. OO still has the lions share but target just that sector means you are not taking advantage of all the market and limiting potential.

 

To leverage the maximum and grow the overall market you need products in all sectors. It's folly to ditch or ignore sectors in a shrinking market. If there is less product in N I simply spend less - I don't switch my spend to other scales which means that the overall market suffers.

 

G.

 

Limited editions don't grow the overall market, they cater to a niche. In N gauge, that niche can be simply too small to absorb 500 of a product. Present market conditions are such that few limited editions are viable, even in 'OO'. (CJL)

[grahame]

Limited editions don't grow the overall market, they cater to a niche. In N gauge, that niche can be simply too small to absorb 500 of a product. Present market conditions are such that few limited editions are viable, even in 'OO'. (CJL)

Of course limited editions are part of the total market. They might be short lived but so are many products when upgraded by a Mk2 version or dropped from a range. Niches are part of the overall market. They are just small specific sectors.

 

G.

[ian]

Just because there's a niche in the market it doesn't mean that there is a market in the niche.

 

There are lots of gaping holes in the N gauge ranges but it would take deep pockets and an iron nerve to fill them.

 

The OO market is abetted by the collectors and the O market currently has a novelty value - many people are buying the Dapol locos not to change scale but as an extra.

[TomE]

Overall, the market is shrinking and 'O' is the only real growth area because of older age group eyesight concerns, the availability of more disposable income among that age group, and the historical ability to always get a better margin on an 'O' gauge product. (CJL)

 

 

Surely RTR 'O' is only a growth market because it is starting from practically nothing? The real question will be how sustainable that growth will be in the long term.

 

Tom. 

[Gerald Henriksen]

Surely RTR 'O' is only a growth market because it is starting from practically nothing? The real question will be how sustainable that growth will be in the long term.

 

I think it is telling that the market seems to be quite content to allow Heljan to own it (with a bit of activity from Dapol).  If others believed the O market to be a truly growing market they would be entering it.

 

As for the question of N, again telling that despite a test Hornby have decided to stay out of the market indicating that the market, while certainly healthier than O, isn't as big as some believe (with the flip side being that it has allowed for options like Revolution Trains to fill a demand that the larger operations feel they can't).

[LBRJ]

Firstly I will say I like N gauge, especially when it is done by other people!  I always take a good look at N or 2FS layouts for longer at exhibitions than more or less any others.

 

Slightly less positively, some thought on the matter leads me to think that the N Market Share is a lot higher than the number of N modellers would suggest - N thusiasts seem to bu whatever takes their fancy; its got a tinge of "The Collector" running trains round a round n round style layout that often bares only a passing resemblance to what we may call reality.

 

Good luck to em says I - its a hobby, done for some light relief, not a job  that needs to be worked at - but it does mean the market is smaller than it first appears.

[grahame]

Just because there's a niche in the market it doesn't mean that there is a market in the niche.

 

There are lots of gaping holes in the N gauge ranges but it would take deep pockets and an iron nerve to fill them.

 

The OO market is abetted by the collectors and the O market currently has a novelty value - many people are buying the Dapol locos not to change scale but as an extra.

 

A niche is simply a small, specialised sector - but it is still a potential part of the overall market; there are customers in it. It may be more difficult to address them with product, especially with big business large batch production, but there are ways to satisfy them; commissioned limited editions (often of a re-worked part of a batch) is one way, another is crowd-funding (as witnessed by RT and DJMs efforts). Of course it is a lot more tricky and easy to misjudge with product choice like MR did, but the NGS seems to do it relatively successfully with commissioned product and they have a more limited market by selling only to their members.

 

It might be that Hornby are timid of the British market but there are other (small players granted) producing models exclusively in N and satisfying niche markets; like Union Mills and CJM, and it doesn't mean that Hornby are always right; look how they managed to mangle the UK OO market.

 

There are also 'collectors' in N gauge, but they have a huge range of world wide production to choose from, particularly from Japan where there is a massive N gauge market (that dwarfs the UK and their own domestic HO/OO market) and number of manufacturers who produce large volumes and a large choice of N models. And it seems that, as noted by LBRL, many N enthusiasts are a lot more willing to mix and match their collections. 

 

G.

[justin1985]

When I came back to modelling in my 20s, I initially bought some of the then new-generation OO, because that was what I was familiar with from when I was a kid. I flirted with EM, but quickly realised that N/2mm would be the only way I'd ever be able to model anything that vaguely resembled a real railway.

 

In all but the very largest rooms OO/4mm makes it very difficult to model a railway in a landscape (can be done, of course, but much less scope). Even in the relatively large garage that I have as my modelling space now (approx 5.5m x 2.5m) that would mean trainset curves if I wanted a continuous run. In N, that gives me the space for a true railway in a landscape. The vast majority of OO/4mm layouts on here and in magazines still seem to fall into the "track squeezed onto a flat board" format, where the landscape ends up being an afterthought.

 

It seems the most popular layout format in OO these days is a diesel TMD. Lots of tight radius points and every last inch of MDF crammed with track. What do you fill a TMD with? Lots of quite possibly limited edition, DCC sound fitted, locomotives. A retailer's (and manufacturer's) wet dream - high margins, and endless potential to keep adding more locos. It always strikes me that OO is the most "collector-ish" scale. 

 

Landscape based models, more common in N, tend to favour modelling complete trains. The same (theoretical) pot of modelling cash doesn't just spent on lots of locos, we want a much greater proportion of coaches and wagons. We want realistic sets of coaches including single restaurant and brake coaches, and we carp if we don't get a TGS to go with our HST set (extra mouldings, lower margins, and within our smaller market), we want trains like the Pendolino (that has something like 7 different bodyshells for 9 vehicles). And even though prices have crept up proportionately more, the margins on rolling stock and multiple units will never match locos.

 

If an N gauge modeller and a OO modeller both spend £1000 on models a year, the odds are its much easier for the manufacturer and the retailer to make more profit from the OO modeller. 

 

I can only imagine this is even more true of someone buying RTR O gauge. The purchases are going to be VERY heavily weighted towards locomotives (more than one or two Mk1 coaches and the mantlepiece is full...). Maximum margins for the manufacturers and retailers. 

 

Oh, and the point about fiddliness and eyesight is a perpetual red herring. As Graeme has already pointed out, and anyone who has actually tried will realise, the smallest parts are pretty much the same whatever scale you model in. It would be perverse NOT to include the finest detail you can in whatever scale you happen to be modelling (including for manufacturers) - but the smallest detail parts it is practical to manufacture, smallest decals you can print, stay the same. Just look at what happens when an etched kit is "shot down" from 7mm to 4mm, or 4mm to 2mm - some parts simply disappear, others will be left off or replaced with something more robust by any sensible builder. The moment you do any detailing, repainting, kit building, whatever, it is fiddly, whatever the scale - either that, or you can go with lower detail levels in any scale, if you want. 

 

If someone tried to sell me an O gauge model with the same level of detail as an N gauge one, I would not be impressed! In N I'm happy with a solid chassis block, in OO I'd hope for at least a representation of a steam loco's inside motion, and in O, I'd want fully working inside motion. Likewise, on a layout, you'll only find a rough impression of point and signal rodding on 2mm Finescale layouts like Copenhagen Fields, but if I was switching to O, I'd hope for fully detailed scale point rodding etc. 

 

Justin

Edited August 25, 2017 by justin1985

[Chris M]

It seems to me that the O gauge ready to run success may well be a "flash in the pan". My reasoning is that O gauge stock takes up a lot of storage space. Once you have half a dozen locos, a rake of coaches and a collection of wagons storage space will become a problem for many. With N gauge you can store a huge amount of stock in a small space so people will keep on buying.

 

The above is based on my G scale experience where, despite having a large storage area, I really cannot buy anything new unless I sell something first. The G scale market went really well about 15 years ago and then suddenly went much quieter and I think storage could well have been a factor. It is quite possible that in say 5 years time the current O gauge bubble will have burst.

 

I don't think Hornby's lack of interest in N is significant, after all they have stayed away from O as well.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Chris M

[Legend]

Isn't it the case that Hattons have entered the O gauge market because they see an opportunity for increased margins. O has traditionally been very expensive . Dapol and Heljan have brought prices down but I bet they make lots more margin on their O gauge items as opposed to OO which is very price sensitive. The same would be true of N . It's the margin per model that's important here. To make a reasonable amount of money in N I think you would need to make lots more models , and as we have seen the market for 1000s isn't really there.

[dibber25]

Of course limited editions are part of the total market. They might be short lived but so are many products when upgraded by a Mk2 version or dropped from a range. Niches are part of the overall market. They are just small specific sectors.

 

G.

By 'growing the overall market' I thought you meant that people are attracted into the hobby on the strength of a limited edition (or two). Of course they are part of the overall market - they are a part of the market that manufacturers feel they cannot fulfil with a production run. Equally, the decline in limited editions because they are less and less viable as the choices become more obscure, is contributing to the slow-down in the current market. Limited editions are often a shot in the dark, a gamble. For instance, an old substandard tooling with a fancy new, unique, livery may well sell-out in weeks, while a good, modern tooling in a more commonplace livery will stick on the shelves. Making predictions is extremely difficult but you only need one disappointment to kill off enthusiasm for taking that risk. (CJL)

[Seanem44]

Not another Dear Hattons thread!!

 

This is just wishnlisting under a different name

 

I feel bad now having authored the autocoach one

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

.... It's folly to ditch or ignore sectors in a shrinking market. If there is less product in N I simply spend less - I don't switch my spend to other scales which means that the overall market suffers...

It doesn't matter what the revenue shares of the different scales may be for UK prototype product in the UK market, but what profit margin may be obtained on each. It's quite normal to surrender a product line that isn't yielding adequate profit if there's no sign of potential for recovery. Dapol's scaling back on N reads like exactly that to me, the money is going after the better margin in O gauge, an entirely proper action for a competently run business.

 

...some thought on the matter leads me to think that the N Market Share is a lot higher than the number of N modellers would suggest - N thusiasts seem to buy whatever takes their fancy; its got a tinge of "The Collector" running trains round a round n round style layout that often bares only a passing resemblance to what we may call reality...

And I think what takes many an Nthusiasts fancy is better quality N gauge, which mostly means prototypes of mainland European, American or Japanese origin: with a few honourable exceptions, UK prototype N gauge product isn't a match for it. I would not be in the least surprised to learn that 50% of the N sold in the UK is non UK prototype.

[Legend]

I feel bad now having authored the autocoach one

Don't feel bad. That was a good thread intelligently put together as Hattons had commissioned the 14XX , so not at all far fetched

[298]

Or MR picked the wrong Ltd Edition to do...just copying what sells in OO is not the solution.

 

 

But the design work is largely paid for, and a customer can have can reasonable idea of what to expect. It'd be almost like the old Lima catalogues where they put scaled up N gauge couplings on OO models in an attempt to prove they had an engineered prototype.

 

Either way, there ius a fundamental difference between a wish list, and suggesting what might be suitable for a retailer to commission, as regional influences can sway a decision.

[Seanem44]

Don't feel bad. That was a good thread intelligently put together as Hattons had commissioned the 14XX , so not at all far fetched

Yeah... a packages set would have been nice.  Oh well.  I bought the Hornby one for now.  Not perfect but it will pass from a distance.

[lofty1966]

My eyes have deteriorated so much these past few years 'N' gauge is a non starter.

It's a shame as I built several layouts back in the nineties for customers and enjoyed the process.....can't even get 00 stuff out the box these days without my reading glasses on.

[grahame]

My eyes have deteriorated so much these past few years 'N' gauge is a non starter. It's a shame as I built several layouts back in the nineties for customers and enjoyed the process.....can't even get 00 stuff out the box these days without my reading glasses on.

I'm sorry that your eyesight has deteriorated to that extent. I struggle with my eyes - servere myopia, astigmatism, occular hypotension, onset diabetic retinopathy, and the threat of glaucoma - but I'm still modelling in N. Eyes do deteriorate over time but I find I can make adjustments. For example I have to take my glasses off and get very close to see detail and I find very good lighting helps.

 

However, N isn't exactly such a tiny scale that it requires microscopes and powerful magnifying glasses to see and as Justin1985 pointed out the parts and details are no smaller than in other scales. Sometimes, I think that some use the model size and eyes as an excuse but these days many layouts tend to be the same overall size and with OO and O ones getting smaller with the proliferation of depot style themes these days.

 

G

G

[justin1985]

And I think what takes many an Nthusiasts fancy is better quality N gauge, which mostly means prototypes of mainland European, American or Japanese origin: with a few honourable exceptions, UK prototype N gauge product isn't a match for it. I would not be in the least surprised to learn that 50% of the N sold in the UK is non UK prototype.

Completely agree on the profit margins, but not at all on the quality, or sales, of UK versus overseas N gauge. Your statement might have been true 20 years ago, but not at ALL today!

 

Based on the N gauge on sale at even specialist retailers and exhibitions, I'd guesstimate 80% to 90% of N gauge sales in the UK are UK prototype. (By volume, perhaps less by value)

 

In terms of detail and running quality, I'd say the vast majority of UK N gauge models are up there with the majority of mainland European N gauge models. If anything, I'd say the weakness in some recent UK N is to have gone overboard with separate detail parts (jumper cables, etched grilles) for the sake of being able to claim the model has them ("same detail specification as OO"), when in reality in the smaller scale a very finely tooled one piece plastic moulding would look better. Etched grilles and stick on jumper cables etc are actually very rare on European KATO or Fleischmann N, but they still generally look a bit better than Dapol.

 

I'd also actually guesstimate that the UK might have the highest proportion of prototypes available RTR in N, after Germany and Switzerland. We're certainly much better off in terms of coverage than France, Spain, Italy, let alone Netherlands or Scandinavia etc.

 

There might be one or two quality issues still in N - the occasional Farish split gear, and the all too frequent Dapol iffy PCB. But that's hardly unique to the scale - just look at Hornby mazak rot etc.

 

Justin

[grahame]

Isn't it the case that Hattons have entered the O gauge market because they see an opportunity for increased margins. O has traditionally been very expensive . Dapol and Heljan have brought prices down but I bet they make lots more margin on their O gauge items as opposed to OO which is very price sensitive. The same would be true of N . It's the margin per model that's important here. To make a reasonable amount of money in N I think you would need to make lots more models , and as we have seen the market for 1000s isn't really there.

 

It doesn't matter what the revenue shares of the different scales may be for UK prototype product in the UK market, but what profit margin may be obtained on each. It's quite normal to surrender a product line that isn't yielding adequate profit if there's no sign of potential for recovery. Dapol's scaling back on N reads like exactly that to me, the money is going after the better margin in O gauge, an entirely proper action for a competently run business.

 

 

Cherry picking the most profitable sectors and avoiding others is not a good business strategy. Most medium and large companies don't only produce a product in one sector by chasing the highest profit margin and ditching lower profit/economy ranges but offer choice to appeal to all customers (think electrical goods, cars, and even food). Most offer a basic model/range, a stock/mainstay range and an upmarket/premium range with highest prices and profit margin. They want turnover and margin from all potential sectors to contribute to overhead (fixed costs) and profit. They look to sweat their production facilities and distribution network by winkling out all potential customers through offering them suitable product. If it was the case that companies in the model railway market only wanted to be in the highest profit margin sector they would also ditch OO gauge production.

 

Chasing high profit sectors can distort the market and can force up prices in the other sectors to compete (not something Legend would not be happy with ). The alternative is to slash prices to make it attractive but I don't see that happening soon with the current increasing costs. The O gauge market is tiny and does not currently give much opportunity for long term continuous sustained growth. With such a small market it is also difficult for other manufacturers to enter and compete in that market (why there are so few RTR O gauge manufacturers) and only offers a comparatively small total turnover. It needs high prices and high profit to remain viable.

 

Dapol might appear to have abandoned N gauge but they are still producing and delivering new models (from existing tooling but with new liveries), claim developments are only in abeyance and are already re-considering certain products (such as the class 50) in that market. They've even got a few all new N gauge products yet to be launched: class 88 loco and Class 142 DMU.  

 

G

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Cherry picking the most profitable sectors and avoiding others is not a good business strategy. Most medium and large companies don't only produce a product in one sector by chasing the highest profit margin and ditching lower profit/economy ranges but offer choice to appeal to all customers (think electrical goods, cars, and even food)...

Well, there we have to agree to disagree. Your argument is based on essential items which inevitably dominate the economy. I am thinking of discretionary purchase enthusiast/hobby product which is on a much smaller scale. As an example I heard this type of argument when digital media commenced to be made available for specialist classical music recordings and related products. The smart money dumped cassette and LP overnight for CD and reaped the profit, despite claims of inevitable loss of market share due to the disenfranchised customers walking away. Many of the businesses that 'kept faith' ended up with their assets purchased by those that hadn't.

[grahame]

The smart money dumped cassette and LP overnight for CD and reaped the profit, despite claims of inevitable loss of market share due to the disenfranchised customers walking away. Many of the businesses that 'kept faith' ended up with their assets purchased by those that hadn't.

I think you are mistaking new technologies replacing old ones and obsolescence. Those sort of changes are more about buying patterns and demand rather than chasing highest margin products.

 

G

[Gerald Henriksen]

Cherry picking the most profitable sectors and avoiding others is not a good business strategy. Most medium and large companies don't only produce a product in one sector by chasing the highest profit margin and ditching lower profit/economy ranges but offer choice to appeal to all customers (think electrical goods, cars, and even food).

  

Companies all the time discard either product ranges, or even entire divisions of the company, because while profitable they don't generate the profit levels wanted.  Have to make the numbers look good to please the stock markets.

 

And of course one of the most successful companies in the world, Apple, totally ignore the lower segments of the market.  Would you accuse them of not having a good business strategy?

 

It is difficult to apply generalities to business, but just because something is profitable doesn't mean that it would make good business sense for a particular company to pursue it.

 

Dapol might appear to have abandoned N gauge but they are still producing and delivering new models (from existing tooling but with new liveries), claim developments are only in abeyance and are already re-considering certain products (such as the class 50) in that market. They've even got a few all new N gauge products yet to be launched: class 88 loco and Class 142 DMU.

Still to early to make a statement about Dapol.

 

Dapol is, I think, still dealing with the significant change in staff that occurred (and possibly issues in China).  My understanding is that the new staff have a background in O, which would make O a more natural "quick fix" to pursue while dealing with a learning curve on a number of issues when dealing with a new job.

 

While a number of external issues are influencing things, I would be surprised if Dapol didn't eventually continue with new stuff in N given the existing market share they have once things have settled down.

 

[despite what some people would like to believe, a lot of this stuff takes years to learn / straighten out even when you come with existing knowledge]

[rob D2]

I don't understand how even the most hardened N gauge modeller can say the parts are as fiddly in OO.

 

OO TOPS numbers are 2mm high , that's about the limit of what I can do even with steady hands. With smaller numbers it would simply be harder in N and I simply, wouldn't enjoy it at all.