JeremyC Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said: The choice of an LNG fuelled vessel might or might not have been a bad decision. But it was followed by two very bad decisions - 1. Giving the design contract to a concern which had no experience of designing LNG powered vessels, and 2. Giving the build contract to a yard which had no experience of building LNG powered vessels (and hardly had a very good reputation in recent years for building anything) . Regarding your last comment. In 2006 as chief engineer I took a new ship out of Fergusons on her maiden voyage and was with her for the next 18 months before transferring to the sister ship. I don't recall her as being a badly built ship; there was actually little to choose between her and the Polish built sister. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) Lots of people at this inquiry with an agenda. The passenger side of these ships is far from over specified. The expectations of the travelling public increase year on year, so sticking with a 1960s travel experience is not what is wanted. Just look at the pasting the likes of the IEP gets on here and elsewhere for being a perceived backwards step in passenger comfort/experience to the likes of HST/225. The passenger capacity of the ships are also justified - the current Arran vessel is certificated for 1000 passengers and that is utilised in the summer months, with people often having to be turned away from sailings on Summer weekends - when she's full it is not a pleasant travelling experience, although the crossing is only 50 minutes. The new vessel is therefore a like for like replacement. The vessel destined for the triangle does not require such a large passenger certificate, however to use an RN associated phrase it would be "fitted for, but not with", and the passenger spaces are more appropriate to a slightly longer and more inclement route. It is after all utilising a standardised design which provides a lot of flexibility in the future as inevitably in 20 years or so the vessels will likely be cascaded to other routes or would possibly end up working "back to back" together - what might seem flash and over specified now is considerably not 20 years hence, so the long view must be taken. These ships will likely have a service life with Calmac of 35-40 years, far longer than would ever be expected in the commercial world. As for Roy Pedersen - if that bloke said the sky was blue I'd struggle to believe him. He's a mouthpiece rolled out from time to time to comment on Scottish Ferry matters because he's classed as a so-called expert, despite having no background to justify that premise - he has never worked in the maritime industry/ferry industry/public transport and aside from that lack of experience has no professional qualifications in that area either. Some of the stuff he produces in written form aptly demonstrates that - he lacks a basic understanding of the practicalities of how ships and shipping companies must be run, be they Calmac or otherwise. Edited January 30, 2020 by Bon Accord 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 On a happier note, talking of the Vital Spark, that reminds me - I've been inspired by Lash and Milton Quay, and have started building something with a quayside, but with somewhere further west. Especially with CPO Pertwee and Fatso Johnson in mind (and their nefarious import-export operations), I've had a look at the ScaleScenes Clyde Puffer. https://scalescenes.com/product/t030b-clyde-puffer/ But could I get away with one in a West Country dock setting? Or would the Rivet Police have a go at me? Especially if I called it Vital Spark. Hmm... So imagine my delight to find this: Quote GOVERNMENT SERVICE On Naval service until transfer to the Admiralty at Devonport in 1947. In 1967, one year before she was sold into private hands, she was converted to diesel power. She has also had the classic "funnel to aft of the wheelhouse" conversion, probably done at the same time as the engine. Ref : https://puffersandvics.org/VIC72_eileaneasdale.htm Is that really Devonport in Plymouth? And how did a Clyde Puffer end-up in Devon? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said: And how did a Clyde Puffer end-up in Devon? Quite simply she wasn't a Clyde Puffer. The basic design (or at least the concept) was adapted into the VIC format for wartime use in exactly the same way as the Stanier 8F morphed into the WD classes - a cheaper and slightly less complex copy of an original proven design which was produced en masse and used all over the British Isles accordingly. Edited January 30, 2020 by Bon Accord 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach james Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 15 hours ago, Legend said: I don't know about the power train , that may well be over specified and the use of LNG where there are no storage facilities is baffling . I think this is a case of the Scottish Govt getting in on the green bandwagon without thinking it fully through . In fairness to them there was also a desire to have these ferries built in Scotland and preserve shipbuilding jobs on the Clyde , which is no bad thing , but not at any cost! What is emerging is that these ships are over complicated for this yard to build , but there are many LNG ferries being built elsewhere without issue. I also wouldn't say that they are over specified . Calmac ferries are very well used . The Arran Ferry certainly needs a good passenger capacity , and these boats are not just for the local islanders , although with some fairly long journeys ( I think Barra is 5 hours sailing , the Uig triangle which the second of these ships is for is about 2 hours) islanders do deserve some degree of comfort , like catering ! But these ferries are also used by increasing number of tourists travelling over our spectacular Western Isles . Having said that ,they are decidedly not mini cruise vessels , unless you count having catering and a bar as a cruise ship . I've yet to find the pool, solarium, fitness suite , pizzeria, theatre in a Calmac boat . So I rather think Alf Baird is talking piffle . Could he perhaps be aligned to Pentland or Western Ferries , who do indeed offer very basic services? It's like the same donkheads here on the coast, who don't realize that we have a choice with BC Ferries- we could have just vending machines, or we can have a full cafe. If we just have vending machines, we're going to be paying 30-40 people just to ride the ferries back and forth...because the crew levels are set by having a maximum of 2200 passengers on the ferry, and needing 2 pers/liferaft at a minimum...might as well have the Cafe where you can get OK food. That's on either 1:35 or 1:45 crossings. The smaller ferries like Saltspring do not have a cafe because the trip is too short. But at least they DID get rid of the horrid sunshine breakfast ! James 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLBH Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 19 hours ago, MarkC said: Oh, and LNG in container-frame tanks is regularly delivered to Teesport on the RoRo service from Zeebrugge, and may well be easily available further north too. It wouldn't take much to set up a small LNG bunkering facility either - there has been one on the QEII Jetty on the Tees since late 2014, used for transferring LNG from the above-mentioned tanks to the LNG bunker tanks of ships like the "Coral Star" and "Coral Sticho", which are in and out of the Tees every few days in the course of their long-term charter carrying Ethylene from the Sabic-owned North Tees refinery. CMAL is indeed planning to put in LNG bunkering facilities. There isn't a huge demand for LNG in Uig at the moment, but then there isn't a huge demand for anything in Uig, so LNG isn't any worse than diesel, nuclear fuel rods, or bionic duckweed in that respect. As far as Pedersen goes - he's a well-known crank who insists that his one idea is the solution to all of Scotland's ferry needs. That idea is fast, frequent ferries on short crossings. And on short crossings, it makes a lot of sense - but a lot of the Scottish routes aren't short, and the fast ferries he calls for aren't appropriate to something that needs to be able to run all winter. 2 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLBH Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 19 hours ago, MarkC said: Oh, and LNG in container-frame tanks is regularly delivered to Teesport on the RoRo service from Zeebrugge, and may well be easily available further north too. It wouldn't take much to set up a small LNG bunkering facility either - there has been one on the QEII Jetty on the Tees since late 2014, used for transferring LNG from the above-mentioned tanks to the LNG bunker tanks of ships like the "Coral Star" and "Coral Sticho", which are in and out of the Tees every few days in the course of their long-term charter carrying Ethylene from the Sabic-owned North Tees refinery. CMAL is indeed planning to put in LNG bunkering facilities. There isn't a huge demand for LNG in Uig at the moment, but then there isn't a huge demand for anything in Uig, so LNG isn't any worse than diesel, nuclear fuel rods, or bionic duckweed in that respect. As far as Pedersen goes - he's a well-known crank who insists that his one idea is the solution to all of Scotland's ferry needs. That idea is fast, frequent ferries on short crossings. And on short crossings, it makes a lot of sense - but a lot of the Scottish routes aren't short, and the fast ferries he calls for aren't appropriate to something that needs to be able to run all winter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Well, I'm sitting in a drydock in Odense. We have a 'window of opportunity' between charters to replace some seals on our rudder stock, so as we were only up the coast at Skagen, here we are . I'll post some photos later, all being well Mark 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 35 minutes ago, MarkC said: Well, I'm sitting in a drydock in Odense. We have a 'window of opportunity' between charters to replace some seals on our rudder stock, so as we were only up the coast at Skagen, here we are . I'll post some photos later, all being well Mark I hope yours is going better than mine. Joined Wednesday at the start of a scheduled 2 week docking with a budget of 700k. We've now found so many holes in the wrong places after much blasting that it's now looking like a 4-5 week docking and the bill has already gone north of £1.5million.... 25 year old ship so what do they really expect. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Bon Accord said: I hope yours is going better than mine. Joined Wednesday at the start of a scheduled 2 week docking with a budget of 700k. We've now found so many holes in the wrong places after much blasting that it's now looking like a 4-5 week docking and the bill has already gone north of £1.5million.... 25 year old ship so what do they really expect. Ouch. This <should> only be a quick job - but we won't know if there's been damage sustained inside the rudder trunking until the rudder is off later today. I've just had a good walk around and under the ship; there's a man with a gas-axe busy at the rudder as I trype... Mark 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 31, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 31, 2020 4 hours ago, RLBH said: CMAL is indeed planning to put in LNG bunkering facilities. There isn't a huge demand for LNG in Uig at the moment, but then there isn't a huge demand for anything in Uig, so LNG isn't any worse than diesel, nuclear fuel rods, or bionic duckweed in that respect. As far as Pedersen goes - he's a well-known crank who insists that his one idea is the solution to all of Scotland's ferry needs. That idea is fast, frequent ferries on short crossings. And on short crossings, it makes a lot of sense - but a lot of the Scottish routes aren't short, and the fast ferries he calls for aren't appropriate to something that needs to be able to run all winter. Is this the same guy who thought there was money to be had out of a small hydrofoil service between Swansea and North Devon about a decade ago? He was trying to get backing from the Welsh Assembly and Swansea Council, and insisted that all sorts of evidence proved it would be a practical and viable regular timetabled service; not sure which North Devon location which does’t dry out at low tide he was thinking about. Before this he promoted the same idea for a Cardiff-Bristol city centre service to take about 40 minutes; again, one questions speeds down the Taff, through the Barrage sea lock, and up the Avon. I'd have happily paid to watch a full speed run up the Avon at low water, from a safe distance! People of Scotland, don’t let this cliwn anywhere near your ferry services! 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLBH Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, The Johnster said: People of Scotland, don’t let this cliwn anywhere near your ferry services! Sadly, he lives here, and has managed to get a seat on the Scottish Government's Ferry Industry Advisory Group. Apparently he also does rail consulting! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 31, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 31, 2020 I mean clown; writing in a bus with shot suspension... 2 minutes ago, RLBH said: Sadly, he lives here, and has managed to get a seat on the Scottish Government's Ferry Industry Advisory Group. Apparently he also does rail consulting! Good grief! You poor sods. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 18 minutes ago, The Johnster said: Is this the same guy who thought there was money to be had out of a small hydrofoil service between Swansea and North Devon about a decade ago? He was trying to get backing from the Welsh Assembly and Swansea Council, and insisted that all sorts of evidence proved it would be a practical and viable regular timetabled service; not sure which North Devon location which does’t dry out at low tide he was thinking about. Before this he promoted the same idea for a Cardiff-Bristol city centre service to take about 40 minutes; again, one questions speeds down the Taff, through the Barrage sea lock, and up the Avon. I'd have happily paid to watch a full speed run up the Avon at low water, from a safe distance! People of Scotland, don’t let this cliwn anywhere near your ferry services! Thanks for nudging my memory. Even at the time I though WTF... I can't remember *anywhere* on the North Devon coast that doesn't dry out, and most places are a long way out... For the Cardiff-Bristol city centre service - was he proposing a hovercraft? Bonkers! © Copyright David Purchase and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence. "The River Avon at low tide. At Avonmouth, the tidal range in the Bristol Channel can be 14 metres or more, which is often stated to be the second highest in the world. These high tides give rise to the spectacle of the Severn Bore." © Copyright John Baker and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence. "River Avon at low tide, Bristol. The Clifton Suspension Bridge spans the exposed mud while the suburb of Clifton ascends the right bank" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 20 minutes ago, The Johnster said: I mean clown; writing in a bus with shot suspension... Good grief! You poor sods. +1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyC Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Bon Accord said: I hope yours is going better than mine. Joined Wednesday at the start of a scheduled 2 week docking with a budget of 700k. We've now found so many holes in the wrong places after much blasting that it's now looking like a 4-5 week docking and the bill has already gone north of £1.5million.... 25 year old ship so what do they really expect. A few years ago we were in dry dock in Hull along with another ship. I was talking to the dock yard supervisor when their superintendent come along and started moaning to him about the amount of steelwork that was needing cut out and insisting much of it wasn't necessary. One of the welders was within hearing and chipped in with "Look mate, I'm a f*****g good welder, but I need something solid to weld onto." Edited January 31, 2020 by JeremyC 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 31, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 31, 2020 4 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said: For the Cardiff-Bristol city centre service - was he proposing a hovercraft? Bonkers! No, a hydrofoil I think. A hovercraft would have been difficult to sell in the upper Bristol Channel where memories persist of P & A Campbell's 1964 experiment between Penarth and Weston, which was noisy enough to wake people in Weston as it left Penarth. A hovercraft is a viable solution in an area with such tides, but that amount of noise in a populated area is not acceptable. I will mention that the Swansea-North Devon route is somewhat, er, exposed in poor weather as well. Winds and waves have a 4,000 mile North Atlantic 'reach' behind them, and seas can be very high and steep, especially on an ebb tide when the wind is over the current. A hydrofoil, even a big one, is not going to prosper here... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnofwessex Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 I have had many trips to Lundy on Waverley & Balmoral. On a good day it was rather reminiscent of the title shot in Warship Fun Fun Fun with a Hydrofoil!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 An old story, just refound. Having the fastest boat in a race is all very well, but just you wait until you come up against the crafty old locals... The race was close; King George V glanced frequently over his shoulder to check the position of the rapidly-gaining opposition. It was proving to be a fine match race, as the two boats ploughed through the waves. King George's Britannia straining to keep her slight advantage. Judging well the water in Osbourne Bay, King George admired the skill of his helmsman White, who was making the most of their position slightly to weather. White was typical of the Professional Solent Skipper, clad in a flat hat, brown boots and overalls which were the uniform of his trade. King George, looking at the approaching shore, enquired: "Tack now, White?". White replied with his usual manner of address to the King. "Not yet me Majesty". Onward they sped, with the shoreline growing alarmingly near. "Tack NOW, White?" King George cried, with a degree of urgency. "Not yet me Majesty" came the impassive reply. Still they sailed on. King George could hardly contain his agitation and fear. Once more he enquired if they should tack, only to receive the same stoic reply. Unable to contain himself any longer, the King bellowed "TACK NOW, WHITE?". No sooner had the words left his mouth, than from the rear came an ominous grinding sound. At this White said "Tack now, me Majesty". Britannia finally tacked away - leaving the opposition firmly aground in Osbourne Bay. King George exclaimed: "White, I've knighted men for less". 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted February 2, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2020 On 31/01/2020 at 21:55, johnofwessex said: I have had many trips to Lundy on Waverley & Balmoral. On a good day it was rather reminiscent of the title shot in Warship Fun Fun Fun with a Hydrofoil!! In previous times, until about 1953 I think, Campbell's 'Glen Gower' was the steamer usually allocated to this route. She was generally regarded as the world's only paddle powered submarine, but was popular on Sundays as Wales was dry in those days. Few beers in you and you didn't notice that the ship was nearly upside down most of the time... I first went on a Campbell's trip to Ilfracombe on 'Bristol Queen' in about 1956 when I was 4. It was a bit lumpy all the way down and the return run was cancelled, and we had to make our way back to Cardiff by train. I slept for most of it, sadly. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Doh! It just gets worse! In the Sunday Post ... Quote The shocking condition of Scotland’s delayed £200 million superferries can be revealed today. .. Experts who examined our photographs warned the ships were slipping into disrepair and should not be exposed to the elements. Naval architects pointed to deformed steel plates on the side of the Glen Sannox, which could indicate structural weaknesses, and also said such a young ship should not be so rusty. https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/the-230m-ghost-ships-pictures-expose-shocking-state-of-scotlands-superferries/ But it's not all bad, the article has a good modelling tip: Image © Sunday Post https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/the-230m-ghost-ships-pictures-expose-shocking-state-of-scotlands-superferries/ 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 9 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said: Doh! It just gets worse! In the Sunday Post ... https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/the-230m-ghost-ships-pictures-expose-shocking-state-of-scotlands-superferries/ But it's not all bad, the article has a good modelling tip: Image © Sunday Post https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/the-230m-ghost-ships-pictures-expose-shocking-state-of-scotlands-superferries/ Another article full of utter nonsense, the drivel from some of the so-called experts is something else. The comments from Alf Baird are nothing short of laughable - whether the ship is certified for 1000 pax or 500 pax makes cock-all difference to the overall cost as it's the difference between carrying six 150 man liferafts and eight - a cost differential of approximately £60K. As has been previously mentioned, a 500 pax capacity is no use to man nor beast on the Arran run. The media is obviously out for blood, regardless of what they must contrive to attempt to get it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnofwessex Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 What was in the early 60's the only spare ship with a winter Arran passenger certificate, perhaps a copy could be built 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 19 hours ago, johnofwessex said: What was in the early 60's the only spare ship with a winter Arran passenger certificate, perhaps a copy could be built With a passenger certificate for nearly 2000 as I remember. Where on earth did they all go?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted February 5, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 5, 2020 If she was anything like the Bristol Channel steamers, they all went in the bar... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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