TOPS class numbers

[frobisher]

Another anomaly is that class 21's were rebuilt into class 29's, and 30's into 31's, yet were not renumbered out of their respective D61xx & D5xxx ranges. I know that 29's would have ended up being 29xxx had they lasted long enough, but it's intriguing that no one thought it necessary to renumber them into a different range after rebuilding.

Changing "D" numbers was rare in the extreme from what I've seen (mostly restricted to prototypes).

 

Given all of class 31 were re-engined from class 30, renumbering was kinda redundant, especially given a known at the time future renumbering to TOPS down the line.

 

The 21's and 29's though should have warranted a renumber, but I suspect it would have left one range "gappy" plus a need to find a new range for the 29's.

 

Mind you the 33/1's should have been renumbered as well, as they were to become a new class originally (34).

 

The 71 to 74 rebuilds got a renumber and a reconsolidation of the 71's numbers - typically Southern Region though who seem to like that kind of faffing about.

[rodent279]

Having now read it, the AAR quote 'The information is useful, but is it worth the cost?' amused me, with the hindsight of progress.. As is the idea that a (then) 10 year old computer system is outmoded. 

 

If it's any consolation, do you know how we manage mobile phone networks?

 

On spreadsheets, some of which have their ancestry 10yrs ago. We do have various databases, but no one trusts the data in them fully, so in the end, most work is managed and tracked using spreadsheets.

[4630]

 

 

 

I stand to be corrected, but I thought TOPS had been around since about 1965, when it first started to be used for recording & controlling wagon movements. I assume therefore that wagons were the first vehicles to go on to TOPS?

 

 

 

 

This adds some interesting background and anecdotes about TOPS;

 

http://www.les-smith.com/software/tops.htm

[Holmesfeldian]

If you want to know about TOPS, I uploaded the 1974 British Transport Film explaining the subject to youtube about a year ago..

 

[rodent279]

If you want to know about TOPS, I uploaded the 1974 British Transport Film explaining the subject to youtube about a year ago..

 

I shall have a look next time the outlaws are visiting! I think it could be a very good Automatic Mother-in-Law remover!

[Clive Mortimore]

Changing "D" numbers was rare in the extreme from what I've seen (mostly restricted to prototypes).

 

Given all of class 31 were re-engined from class 30, renumbering was kinda redundant, especially given a known at the time future renumbering to TOPS down the line.

 

The 21's and 29's though should have warranted a renumber, but I suspect it would have left one range "gappy" plus a need to find a new range for the 29's.

 

Mind you the 33/1's should have been renumbered as well, as they were to become a new class originally (34).

 

The 71 to 74 rebuilds got a renumber and a reconsolidation of the 71's numbers - typically Southern Region though who seem to like that kind of faffing about.

Hi frobisher

 

Why would the BR need to renumber its rebuilds? Some railways always kept the same number when locomotives were rebuilt. The Midland was expert at this, some Kirtley 0-6-0s went from having B boilers and being class 2 locos, to being rebuilt with H boilers and became class 3 locomotives, only to revert back to class2 with B boilers or new Belpaire G6 boilers and kept the same numbers until the LMS added a 2 in front in the 1930s.

[PenrithBeacon]

Oh none of it matters now, it's all piffling trivia, and largely irrelevant to today's world, but it just stimulates my curiosity.

 

 

 

I've always viewed HST's as effectively a double headed fixed rake of coaching stock, but with the locos on each end. Really HST's are two locos working in multiple top & tail.

 

 

 

I stand to be corrected, but I thought TOPS had been around since about 1965, when it first started to be used for recording & controlling wagon movements. I assume therefore that wagons were the first vehicles to go on to TOPS?

 

Another anomaly is that class 21's were rebuilt into class 29's, and 30's into 31's, yet were not renumbered out of their respective D61xx & D5xxx ranges. I know that 29's would have ended up being 29xxx had they lasted long enough, but it's intriguing that no one thought it necessary to renumber them into a different range after rebuilding.

The first mention of TOPS in the RM was in its October 1968 issue and it had all the appearance of being a press release.

[The Stationmaster]

Oh none of it matters now, it's all piffling trivia, and largely irrelevant to today's world, but it just stimulates my curiosity.

 

 

 

I've always viewed HST's as effectively a double headed fixed rake of coaching stock, but with the locos on each end. Really HST's are two locos working in multiple top & tail.

 

 

 

I stand to be corrected, but I thought TOPS had been around since about 1965, when it first started to be used for recording & controlling wagon movements. I assume therefore that wagons were the first vehicles to go on to TOPS?

 

Another anomaly is that class 21's were rebuilt into class 29's, and 30's into 31's, yet were not renumbered out of their respective D61xx & D5xxx ranges. I know that 29's would have ended up being 29xxx had they lasted long enough, but it's intriguing that no one thought it necessary to renumber them into a different range after rebuilding.

 

TOPS entered operation as trial sites only in 1973 (one trial site might have got underway in late 1972 but I'm not certain about that) and BR's serious interest in it reputedly dated from c.1970 according to one of the people who went to the USA to see what it had to offer before the final decision was made to buy it.  The BR standardised class numbering system dates from c.1966 and was first in everyday operational use with the introduction of the new Freight Train Loads system in 1968 from which time data, using the class identifier number, began to appear on locos.

 

Initially TOPS was used mainly for wagons but locos were entered on it in a rather primitive fashion during 1973 (primitive in that it only had very basic loco details at that time but sufficient for train preparation purposes) and the original SP software only accepted loco numbers up to a maximum of 4 digits (it had no problem with accepting any number of loco number digits from 1 to 4 hence all BR diesels could be handled from Day 1 of trial site operation but in any case locos were only entered onto the operational part of the system as they were recorded in a trial site areas although they were seemingly in the main database somewhere - with their existing painted numbers).   Main TOPS cutover started in late 1973 and then ran on in a national programme extending through to complete coverage in 1975 - but still basically a wagon recording system although with increasing use for some loco information.

 

I suspect that in freight terms the system probably paid for itself within less than 10 years as the information it gave allowed massive numbers of withdrawals from the wagon fleet plus considerable saving in wagon maintenance costs.  We actually saw some benefits at the trial site where I worked within a couple of months where its information enabled us to reduce the cost of occasional Sunday working of the yard.

Edited August 8, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[rodent279]

TOPS entered operation as trial sites only in 1973 (one trial site might have got underway in late 1972 but I'm not certain about that) and BR's serious interest in it reputedly dated from c.1970 according to one of the people who went to the USA to see what it had to offer before the final decision was made to buy it.  The BR standardised class numbering system dates from c.1966 and was first in everyday operational use with the introduction of the new Freight Train Loads system in 1968 from which time data, using the class identifier number, began to appear on locos.

 

Initially TOPS was used mainly for wagons but locos were entered on it in a rather primitive fashion during 1973 (primitive in that it only had very basic loco details at that time but sufficient for train preparation purposes) and the original SP software only accepted loco numbers up to a maximum of 4 digits (it had no problem with accepting any number of loco number digits from 1 to 4 hence all BR diesels could be handled from Day 1 of trial site operation but in any case locos were only entered onto the operational part of the system as they were recorded in a trial site areas although they were seemingly in the main database somewhere - with their existing painted numbers).   Main TOPS cutover started in late 1973 and then ran on in a national programme extending through to complete coverage in 1975 - but still basically a wagon recording system although with increasing use for some loco information.

 

I suspect that in freight terms the system probably paid for itself within less than 10 years as the information it gave allowed massive numbers of withdrawals from the wagon fleet plus considerable saving in wagon maintenance costs.  We actually saw some benefits at the trial site where I worked within a couple of months where its information enabled us to reduce the cost of occasional Sunday working of the yard.

 

So, if I understand that correctly, some locos were on TOPS during the trial period, with their pre-TOPS numbers? If that makes sense....

 

cheers N

[slilley]

BR had a lot of trouble with Crompton Parkinson electrical equipment in the 1960s. I believe that Crompton got so snowed under trying to repair damaged/burnt out electrical equipment returned by BR that they couldn't deliver the equipment for all of the class 45 builds, hence why BR dropped them in favour of Brush for classes 46 and 47. Quite a few class 45's were sent to Brush for refurbishment in the mid 60s. I think Crompton had either gone under or been acquired by then. I remember seeing Brook Crompton Parkinson motors in the 80s.

 

On the whole CP and Brush in Peaks issue, here is a quote from Class 47 50 Years of Locomotive History on the subject.

 

"It was intended to construct a further 66 BR/Sulzer Type 4s. These would be Nos D148-D199 and D1500-D1513, and early in 1960 four companies quoted for the supply of sets of electrical equipment for this batch of locomotives. The BTC specified that 20 sets were required to be delivered between August and October 1961, and the remainder by no later than April 1962. Brush executive F. H. Wood wrote to the company’s Managing Director B. L. Goodlet on 24 February 1960, informing him of the enquiry for the equipment. He emphasised that, in his view, Brush should make a concerted effort to win the order. The Crompton Parkinson equipment was proving troublesome, and he felt that Brush had a good chance of winning the tender. In May the BTC’s Supply Committee considered the bids and recommended accepting the one submitted by Brush, it being lower than Crompton Parkinson’s. Six months later, due to ongoing supply problems with Crompton Parkinson for the electrical equipment they were already contracted to build, their order was reduced by ten sets which were added to Brush’s order. This action was agreed at the Supply Committee meeting of 15 December 1960. Thus the Crompton Parkinson-equipped locomotives would end with No D137 and those with Brush equipment would now number 76, beginning with No D138. At that time it was envisaged that the ‘Peaks’ would number  213 locomotives."

[Baby Deltic]

I believe the BR ferries were class 99

[Baby Deltic]

Interestingly a lot of mainline certified loco's were numbered in the class 89 series on TOPS. D172 was 89472 (89/4) .

[russ p]

Ho

 

I believe the BR ferries were class 99[/quote

Interestingly a lot of mainline certified loco's were numbered in the class 89 series on TOPS. D172 was 89472 (89/4) .

 

How it works is 89 ,the type number in this case 4 and the last two numbers of the running number displayed when registered. Its the same for steam but they are 98s

I think flying Scotsman is 98772

[Baby Deltic]

Ho

How it works is 89 ,the type number in this case 4 and the last two numbers of the running number displayed when registered. Its the same for steam but they are 98s

I think flying Scotsman is 98772

A bit like when D172 was 97403 really except with class 97 the original fleet number is irrelevant other than power classification.

[The Stationmaster]

So, if I understand that correctly, some locos were on TOPS during the trial period, with their pre-TOPS numbers? If that makes sense....

 

cheers N

 

Any loco which was 'captured' (by the cutover team, and subsequently by yard staff once things were up & running) would have been entered into TOPS using its painted number.  Thus, for example, on our trial site at Radyr in 1973 the yard staff reported all loco movements by their number  - other than the yard pilot 350s which were largely ignored - so consists were appearing with the original numbers on them.  As places cutover onto the full system so the same thing happened - which was mainly in the latter part of 1973 then during 1974.

 

In other words a loco didn't need to have its revised number with the class identifier prefix digits in order to be entered on TOPS  (which is obvious when you think about it as TOPS reporting in many places preceeded the renumbering of the locos).

[luckymucklebackit]

I remember the April Fool Spoof that Rail Magazine ran, suggesting that to avoid errors entering numbers into TOPS, all locomotives would have their number replaced by large Barcode panels on the sides, and there would be oversize scanners at the trackside, so that he loco would be "read" as it passed a scanner location.  It fooled many people with a discussion started about how effective it would be!

 

Jim

[rodent279]

I remember the April Fool Spoof that Rail Magazine ran, suggesting that to avoid errors entering numbers into TOPS, all locomotives would have their number replaced by large Barcode panels on the sides, and there would be oversize scanners at the trackside, so that he loco would be "read" as it passed a scanner location.  It fooled many people with a discussion started about how effective it would be!

 

Jim

Titter ye not-I suspect ANPR technology could well make it's impact on the railway.

[daveyb]

I remember the April Fool Spoof that Rail Magazine ran, suggesting that to avoid errors entering numbers into TOPS, all locomotives would have their number replaced by large Barcode panels on the sides, and there would be oversize scanners at the trackside, so that he loco would be "read" as it passed a scanner location. It fooled many people with a discussion started about how effective it would be!

 

Jim

I'm fairly sure I've read Southern Pacific trialled bar coded stock but decided to stay with AAR four letter reporting marks and numbers.

[david.hill64]

Tagging stock and using wayside readers is already in place on many freight railways.

[cheesysmith]

Actually, there was some MGR sets that had transponders fitted and along with certains places fitted with the readers this had already been used.

[Mark Saunders]

Actually, there was some MGR sets that had transponders fitted and along with certains places fitted with the readers this had already been used.

 

The Coal Sector had AVI (automatic vehicle identification) equipment fitted to their locomotives MGR wagons, HEA's, FPA's and even the Cawoods PFA's.

 

The AVI transponder detectors were positioned at the Collieries, Open Cast sites, other loading points and Power Stations however this all fell apart with Privatisation. The orange covers in the 4 foot were still in position many years after they had became redundant!

 

Mark Saunders

[kevinlms]

I remember the April Fool Spoof that Rail Magazine ran, suggesting that to avoid errors entering numbers into TOPS, all locomotives would have their number replaced by large Barcode panels on the sides, and there would be oversize scanners at the trackside, so that he loco would be "read" as it passed a scanner location.  It fooled many people with a discussion started about how effective it would be!

 

Jim

But the US did indeed use barcodes on wagons for several years. They gave up, due to the difficulty in keeping them clean and in good condition.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcode

[kevinlms]

The first mention of TOPS in the RM was in its October 1968 issue and it had all the appearance of being a press release.

Thanks for the info, sadly I have September & November issues!

[kevinlms]

Thanks for the info, sadly I have September & November issues!

OK, I have double checked my data base and found that I ought to have October 1968 RM. The question is where is it? Eventually found amongst a small pile that I thought were all duplicates to be handed on!

 

But now I have it, I can't find any mention of TOPS within this issue.

 

Are you sure that date is correct.

 

 

Edit to add.

 

Just realised that the reference to October 1968 by Chris P Bacon, probably meant Railway Magazine and NOT Railway Modeller. Funny of me to assume Railway Modeller, in a model forum!

Edited August 12, 2017 by kevinlms

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Railway World had a TOPS listing; might it have been in that magazine?