West Highland Line Early 1960s

[Geoff Endacott]

I hope they are right because I have just bought all three second-hand.

 

The J36 seems a good starting point for the club members to begin kit-building because eventually someone is going to have to have to have a go at one or more K2s.

 

The next RTR locos to join the fleet will probably be Hornby Black Fives, but now I am getting confused. Just how many different versions of the model did they produce? The layout will be DCC so the newer models will be needed. I just need to find out which model is which and what the details differences are.

 

Thanks again.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Daddyman]

I hope they are right because I have just bought all three second-hand.

 

The J36 seems a good starting point for the club members to begin kit-building because eventually someone is going to have to have to have a go at one or more K2s.

 

The next RTR locos to join the fleet will probably be Hornby Black Fives, but now I am getting confused. Just how many different versions of the model did they produce? The layout will be DCC so the newer models will be needed. I just need to find out which model is which and what the details differences are.

 

Thanks again.

 

Geoff Endacott

Most of the WHL Black Fives I've seen have the topfeed on the second boiler ring, closer to the dome, rather than on the first ring of the boiler, and generally have non-rivetted tenders. All are normal wheelbase. I made the mistake of buying one with the topfeed on the first boiler ring, but that was rare on the WHL - 44957 had that feature, but not always - there was clearly a boiler change around 1960 and it kept the topfeed on the first ring to at least 1961. It had an un-rivetted tender too. 44967 also had the topfeed on the first ring, but has - from what I can see in Robotham's book - a part-rivetted tender, which Hornby have never done. 

 

As for rivetted and unrivetted buffer beams, I think Brassmasters' detailing kit includes alternatives - I think the Hornby buffers just unplug. 

 

I'm sorry I have no idea re which R-numbers apply to which model. Just looking at Goggle, but with no idea whether models are current or not, R3323 (44694) is unsuitable as it has the rivetted tender and topfeed on the first ring (EDIT: and a long wheelbase). X2895TS (45377) is the right base with plain tender and topfeed on the second ring, but I've no idea how much you'll pay for TTS. Actually, I've found a bargain - PM sent! 

 

EDIT: avoid Hornby models of 44658-767 as these had a longer wheelbase. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Daddyman

[pH]

But I believe at least one of FW's kept plain rods to the end. 

 

From photos e.g. 

 

http://railphotoprints.uk/img/s1/v56/p256668058-3.jpg

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8006/7449905452_4b3e992095_b.jpg

 

that would appear to have been 65300.

 

The other one of the last pair, 65313, definitely had fluted rods:

 

http://www.rcts.org.uk/photographs/archive/380/TFD/TFD0460C.jpg

http://railphotoprints.uk/img/s/v-3/p195047593-3.jpg

[Daddyman]

From photos e.g. 

 

http://railphotoprints.uk/img/s1/v56/p256668058-3.jpg

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8006/7449905452_4b3e992095_b.jpg

 

that would appear to have been 65300.

 

The other one of the last pair, 65313, definitely had fluted rods:

 

http://www.rcts.org.uk/photographs/archive/380/TFD/TFD0460C.jpg

http://railphotoprints.uk/img/s/v-3/p195047593-3.jpg

That would make sense as I think the plain rods were fitted to early locos.

 

Nice photos. The canopy over the coal space on the 4F's tender can be seen on the extreme left of the second photo of 65300.  

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8006/7449905452_4b3e992095_b.jpg

[Pacific231G]

Hi Geoff

 Bit of a late response but I've just found on YouTube a really good half hour "BBC Film Unit: Scotland" programme called simply "West Highland" about the line made in 1960 that I simply had to share. It's subtitled "An Impression of a Day on the West Highland Railway". It certainly succeeds in that and from the consistency of stock in each of the trains shown it does look like most of it was shot with several cameras in a single day. 

 

It's here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuy5H9ukNh8

 

It was posted in YouTube in November so I'm probably not the first person interested in the West Highland to have discovered it.

 

What I think will make it particularly useful is that the director and editor held most of the shots of trains passing for their full length rather than cutting away as soon as the loco had passed as normally happens. That makes it possible to identify train formations, number of coaches, types of wagons, etc. as well as things like the fish vans that still formed tail loads on many of the passenger trains. It is also extremely well filmed with good camera work,including aerial shots,  lots of interesting vignettes of passengers- including schoolkids boarding the morning train from Mallaig at lengthman's cottages by ladder and a lot of double heading. 

It was made- though not necessarily filmed- a year after Patrick Whitehouse and John Adams did their filming of the line that appeared in Railway Roundabout but it presents a far more in-depth portrait of the line. I think a lot of the sound was also recorded as it was being flmed- though probably wild track rather than sync.  rather than all being dubbed on later. 

 

The transition does seem to have been very sudden. In 1960 the WHR seen in this film was all-steam with the only diesel engines powering the fishing fleet yet from family holidays that started two or three years later I don't remember ever seeing a steam loco in the Western Highlands. 

Edited January 7, 2018 by Pacific231G

[JeremyC]

We have made a start.

 

The first three locos will be B1 61243 SIR HAROLD MITCHELL (Hornby), K1 62031 (Hornby) and K1 62034 (Hornby).

 

The first kit to be attempted will probably be the PDK kit for the Holmes J36. Can anyone suggest a suitable chassis?

 

Thanks.

 

Geoff Endacott

Re J36 chassis; is there any particular reason why you don't want to use the one supplied with the kit?

Edited January 8, 2018 by JeremyC

[Geoff Endacott]

Re J36 chassis; is there any particular reason why you don't want to use the one supplied with the kit?

 

The kit we had didn't include a chassis.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Geoff Endacott]

Bit of a late response but I've just found on YouTube a really good half hour "BBC Film Unit: Scotland" programme called simply "West Highland" about the line made in 1960 that I simply had to share.

 

Thanks. I had already come across that one.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Geoff Endacott]

Re J36 chassis; is there any particular reason why you don't want to use the one supplied with the kit?

 

Mind you it looks as though Hornby will beat us to it.

 

Geoff Endacott

[highlandngauge]

Bingo!

 

http://shedbashuk.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=FORT+WILLIAM

 

Actual observations rather than just a list of allocations.

 

Geoff Endacott

Thank you this is brilliant- I've been looking for this sort of thing for ages! Edited February 25, 2018 by highlandngauge

[Geoff Endacott]

I have found a bridge which will make an ideal scenic break for Kannotburn. It is at 59:48 on this video: 

 

Can anyone help with photographs of the bridge? There must be some online but I am struggling to pin down the exact location.

 

Thanks.

 

Geoff Endacott

[pH]

... I am struggling to pin down the exact location.

 

Thanks.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

No pictures, but the bridge is at https://goo.gl/maps/ByjNMGqznnG2 above Craggan on Loch Long. The two bridges at 59:38 to 59:41 are the access road to the Glen Douglas munitions dump and Tulloch Road.

[Geoff Endacott]

No pictures, but the bridge is at https://goo.gl/maps/ByjNMGqznnG2 above Craggan on Loch Long. The two bridges at 59:38 to 59:41 are the access road to the Glen Douglas munitions dump and Tulloch Road.

 

Thanks, that's useful. I now have a name to put into search engines.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Geoff Endacott]

The layout is now taking shape:

 

 

Geoff Endacott

 

 

[Geoff Endacott]

The next question is, what passenger stock do we need?

 

The model is going to be set circa 1960. Photos show a lot of MkI stock in both blood & custard and maroon. What I don't know is the mix of pre-Nationalisation stock that would still have been around then.

 

I'm afraid I don't know much about this era. Would there have been many Thompson and Gresley coaches about? And if so, what models are available?

 

With thanks.

 

Geoff Endacott

[D9020 Nimbus]

As far as I'm aware the NBL type 2s only appeared on the WHL after conversion to class 29s—never in their original form (although they did appear on the Oban line, usually in pairs). But in the late 1960s they were the commonest type of loco to be found.

[Geoff Endacott]

We don't plan to have any NBLs on the layout, which is just as well given that Dapol haven't produced one yet.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Dunalastair]

Can I revive this interesting thread after six years? 
 

I have been enjoying the various WHR threads set in the 37 era, but my own interest (and N gauge layout) is set in the age of green type 2s in the old station at the Fort. I have been trying to refresh my chronology of what happened when, even allowing for some flexibility in model operation.

 

I have set my very simplified model in 1966, so no steam, green 26 and 27 diesels, maroon coaches, Gresley as well as Mk1 catering vehicles, timber and paper traffic to / from Corpach as green 20 hauled trip freights, alumina in covered hoppers, observation cars still running to Mallaig and Glasgow, mixed trains to Mallaig (though I stretch a point with an out-of-period fish train, and also distillery traffic), 20s occasionally double heading on Glasgow trains, ballast in bogie hoppers, and an exceptionally late NG train on the BA pier line. Much earlier and I would lose the paper mill traffic. Much later and I would lose the obs cars shunting. 

 

A summary from part of my chronology (post NBR, post LNER, pre 37, pre sprinter, pre Hogwarts) is as follows, with 1966 as my base line.

 

After last regular use of pier railway (c1966)(NG steam locos sold 1969/70)
After last regular traffic to distilleries
After steam ended on WHR
After Black fives recalled in 1963 snow
After fish trains stopped (1962?)
After Mallaig goods trains ended (early 60s)
Mixed trains thereafter - especially oil tanks
After blood and custard gone (1964?)
Just as corporate blue/grey coaches introduced (1965) - but did any get up WHR before 66?
So most if not all coaches maroon
After LNER general coaching stock withdrawn (catering vehicles apart) (1965)
After Corpach mill built (1965) and just as it cecame operational (1966) 
DMUs used for excursions to meet steamers
Alumina in covhops
Station crossover removed about time of end of steam
21s rare on WHR, but 29s common after rebuild 1965-67
29s and 27s generally green, but with yellow panel
08 shunting maroon sleeper 1966
Ballachulish closed 1966, Kinlochleven traffic came to the Fort
First blue 27 not gtill 1967
Thomson porthole brake in bay 1967
Green 29 plus blue 20 on Glasgow train in 1967
Before first blue/grey sleepers in late sixties
Before first photos of blue/grey coaches in 1968
Before observation cars withdrawn in 1968
Before Thomson fullbrake on Mallaig trains in 1968
Gresley catering vehicles still in late sixties
Most coaches blue/grey and locos blue by 1970
Pier railway lifted 1971
Station replaced 1977
Headcodes abolished 1977

 

So my question is, can the forum revise / fine tune any of this? When were the last blood & custards? The first blue/greys at the Fort? Were those apparently out-of-time 'LNER' coaches actually BR builds to LNER designs? When did the Mallaig motorail service end? When did the first blue diesel appear at the Fort? When did long wheelbase wagons take over for the papermill traffic?

 

I'm not fussy about stock (I'm still using Minitrix 27s and coaches I bought in the seventies as well as Dapols rather than spend money I don't have)  but I'd like to get the right look, at least from a distance.

[Dunalastair]

I should have asked @Geoff Endacott how his layout came together all those years ago - the one linked photo seems to be broken. 

[Dunalastair]

 

Bumping this renewed query with an image of what happened to the Corpach paper mill rather after my period of interest.

 

https://www.building.co.uk/news/former-paper-mill-crumples-after-textbook-demolition/3112709.article

 

I also noticed today that my 'period of interest' is when John Thomas was writing his book on the WHR, which later kindled my interest in the line when it came out as a low cost paperback. Thomas closes his book as the diesels took over in the Glens.

 

[03060]

Hello @Dunalastair , just to let you know that I'm out here reading your posts (and re-reading the rest of the thread to see what's gone before) but as I've been on nights all week I haven't had chance to look for info to try and help you yet.

 

Now back in the 'land of the living' I'll see what I can find but being born in '68 and not reaching the West Highlands until '86 (I think) I'm afraid that I don't have any personal memories to fall back on but I do have most of the books and magazine articles that feature the WHL throughout it's years of service but these are maybe only the same sources that you have available ... we'll see.

 

Anyway I like nothing better than an excuse to look at 'things West Highland' and will have some time available over the next week hopefully ... maybe a few more comments and posts will draw in some others ?

 

Regards,

Ian.

[Stevebr]

Slightly out of period but in the February issue of Backtrack there is a photo of a green class 37 D6936 alongside 2 class 29’s at Fort William shed. Not sure when the 37’s first arrived but obviously much earlier than I expected. 

[Dunalastair]

11 hours ago, 03060 said:

Hello @Dunalastair , just to let you know that I'm out here reading your posts (and re-reading the rest of the thread to see what's gone before) but as I've been on nights all week I haven't had chance to look for info to try and help you yet.

 

Now back in the 'land of the living' I'll see what I can find but being born in '68 and not reaching the West Highlands until '86 (I think) I'm afraid that I don't have any personal memories to fall back on but I do have most of the books and magazine articles that feature the WHL throughout it's years of service but these are maybe only the same sources that you have available ... we'll see.

 

Anyway I like nothing better than an excuse to look at 'things West Highland' and will have some time available over the next week hopefully ... maybe a few more comments and posts will draw in some others ?

 

 

Thankyou - I look forward to anything you have. I was born a decade before you, just a few years too late to go to school on the C&OR (bus to Callander instead), but I can just about remember steam and green diesels turning blue were part of my childhood.

[Dunalastair]

29 minutes ago, Stevebr said:

Slightly out of period but in the February issue of Backtrack there is a photo of a green class 37 D6936 alongside 2 class 29’s at Fort William shed. Not sure when the 37’s first arrived but obviously much earlier than I expected. 

 

Interesting conjunction, thankyou - presumably an early test. Was there a date on the photograph? Searching on that loco, there were a couple of sightings in 1968 mentioned on this short thread. Possibly the same image. 

1968 is just after my period of interest, but very close! 

[Stevebr]

The photo says June 1968 so the same image I think