The Brown, the Red, and the Grey

[Miss Prism]

The GWR bought its paint, or at least some of it, from an company in Torquay. Can't remember the name at the moment. I have a document somewhere, but I'm fairly certain it said nothing about wagon red.

 

Edit: errr, Torbay, not Torquay (bad memory)  (see later posts)

Edited October 31, 2017 by Miss Prism

[Compound2632]

First one is startling! Second one looks good to me.

 

 

 

I'm actually serious though. If GWR wagons were red up to 1904, the photo of the Iron Mink mentioned by Dana in post 68 suggests to me that the GWR painted the large "GW" letters directly onto the existing red livery on that particular van - as indicated by Stephen's option 2 in post 70. I know it would have been unusual to do so, but exactly because the GWR used cast plates at this time, it would have been a fairly straightforward thing to do. The fact that only the cast plate with the "G.W.R" has been removed - rather than all the plates - seems to support that.

 

On page 417 of GWR Goods Wagons (1998 edition), there is a photo of a GWR W1 Cattle Van, built in 1904 (the year of the change to 25in letters. It has the large "GW" but on the end the cast plates have been retained, and the side number is on the solebar (on a cast plate I assume, although the photo is too small to be sure).

 

Whether this one is also in red livery is an open question. The caption states that in the original print, bolt holes can be seen on the solebars for where the small "G.W.R" cast plate should have been. The wagon was built in 1904, so could have been turned out in red with cast plates, then later the same year had the large "GW" added and the plate removed. The lack of a shadow could be explained by the red livery still being new.

 

Alternatively, the wagon may have been progressing through the works during the livery change, and so was painted grey with the large GW at the last minute. But then why use the cast plates? Because they were already on order?

 

Oh boy, this is nerdy stuff 

 

Nerd alert!

 

Compare Plate 387, p. 297 (3rd edition, 1998): diagram O2 No. 29301, of Lot 496, said to have been built in 1906 so surely grey. but with cast numberplate (and presumably cast load/tare plate on the solebar it's not a good photo) plus of course 25" G W. So that's continued use of cast plates for new builds with the new livery...

Edited October 30, 2017 by Compound2632

[MikeOxon]

To keep the controversy running, I still like the suggestion I once made in my blog of a Vermilion/Lead Oxide mix, which I initially discovered as one of the 'Victorian style' interior decorating paints, marketed by Farrow & Ball. 

 

Both these pigments were in the GWR inventory (Vermilion is also known as China Red and was used for buffer beams) and the mix results in a bright 'light red' colour that is somewhat 'pinker' in hue than lead oxide used on its own.  I think it is the sort of bright colour that would appeal to Victorian taste.

[JimC]

Both these pigments were in the GWR inventory (Vermilion is also known as China Red and was used for buffer beams)

 

Mmm, but AIUI vermilion was a rather expensive pigment back then. I really can't see that being used wholesale for wagon stock.

 

Wholly uncomparable of course, but when I worked in the plastics industry in the 70s the cost of pigments was a serious consideration, and so, to a lesser extent, was the cost of colour matching, especially if, as occasionally happened, a colour match went catastrophically wrong and a new batch had to be started. I'd look for wagon paint to be both cheap and readily colour matched. Indeed it wouldn't surprise me if there were evidence they made wagon paint to a formula and accepted the inevitable variation in shade. 

[Compound2632]

While we're here, what about the black? The consensus seems to be that ironwork below the solebars and headstocks was black when wagons were red, notwithstanding that they were grey once wagons were grey - or at least, once the grey livery had reached its established, well-documented form. Black running gear was the norm elsewhere but the Great Western is famous for going its own way...

 

I have read* a suggestion that solebars may also have been black; to me that suggests headstocks too. Most wagons had iron or steel underframes; although most other companies stuck with wood at this period, there does seem to have been a vogue for iron/steel underframes among the PO wagon builders in the 1880s and 90s. These wagons generally seem to have had black solebars and headstocks but in the context of having all the ironwork painted black, with only the wood sheeting painted another colour. In GWR Goods Wagons, 3rd edition there is a 1903 photo of a diagram X2 meat van No. 59980 (Plate 584, p. 434). This is described as having white body and roof with red lettering and black underframe - from the photo, that includes solebars, headstocks and buffer housings. I wonder what the justification is for this description? (Atkins and co-authors are very reticent about their sources for individual statements.) If it was usual to paint running gear, solebars etc. red, why make an exception here? What colour were these parts on MICA As once the grey livery was established? Am I perverse in arguing from this exception? (I note also the 1903 photo of an ex-SWR meat van No. 47742 (Plate 581 p. 431) which appears to be a wood-framed vehicle; it's in the same style with dark solebars - the dark colour is continued half-way up the curb rail, to a line level with the top of the headstocks. This is very similar to the livery of LNWR refrigerator vans, although they had solebars, headstocks, curb rail and buffer housings in their standard wagon grey, with black ironwork below the solebar.)

 

*But can't find where. Not in GWR Goods Wagons, 3rd edition. I have to return my loan copy this evening so will stop worriting about all this, I hope!

 

And what about the iron roofs of Iron Minks? Red then grey or always white? - in all cases rapidly converging on grimy...

Edited October 31, 2017 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

Nerd alert!

 

Compare Plate 387, p. 297 (3rd edition, 1998): diagram O2 No. 29301, of Lot 496, said to have been built in 1906 so surely grey. but with cast numberplate (and presumably cast load/tare plate on the solebar it's not a good photo) plus of course 25" G W. So that's continued use of cast plates for new builds with the new livery...

 

Ah! That's interesting because on page 66 of the same volume, the authors discuss the cast plates and state that "large number plates were abandoned in new construction in 1904". They also seem to say that only wagons dating from 1897-1901 carried the cast number and tare plates, and that it was only on these that the combination of cast plates and large letters could be seen. Elsewhere (on page 65) they state that "about the time of Churchward's accession, plates were abandoned and new vehicles were again outshopped with the old 5in painted format, a detail difference being the omission of some of the "To carry" with the load".

 

This made me turn to a wonderful shot of Vastern Road yard in GWR Goods Services Part 2a (p18-19). This is just around 1905, with a few wagons having the large 25in letters. Going over them with a magnifying glass (oh good grief!) shows at least one recent build with the "large letters + cast plates" combo (the tarped 5-planker behind the crane). One or two others exhibit lack of right hand side lettering, including an O2 7-planker, which is a possible indication that they too had a large letters and cast plates combo, although the left end can't be seen. 

 

There are also the brake van shots that Russ has put up here (ignore the 4-plank wagon, it reveals my past sins!): http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagplate.html

 

So photos seem to show not only the combination of cast plates and large letters (as recognized by Atkins, Beard & Tourret) but also that cast body-side plates were used on some wagon builds after 1901 (contrary to the statement in Atkins Beard & Tourret).

 

Two questions re. the cast plates:

 

1. Why where they introduced in the first place? It seems costly and not very flexible. The GWR continued with smaller cast plates on the solebar even after the large body-side cast plates had been abandoned and the painted numbers restored to the body side. Were the cast plates the result of a decision that wagons must have workplates with running numbers, and so an opportunity was intiialy taken to combine this with the bodyside lettering?

 

2. What happened to the body side cast number and tare plates when they were dismantled? I've never seen one. It would be interesting to see the colour and scrape at the paint!

Edited October 31, 2017 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

"about the time of Churchward's accession... "

 

i.e. 1902 or 1903? Online resources are vague.

 

This made me turn to a wonderful shot of Vastern Road yard in GWR Goods Services Part 2a (p18-19). This is just around 1905, with a few wagons having the large 25in letters. Going over them with a magnifying glass (oh good grief!) shows at least one recent build with the "large letters + cast plates" combo (the tarped 5-planker behind the crane). One or two others exhibit lack of right hand side lettering, including an O2 7-planker, which is a possible indication that they too had a large letters and cast plates combo, although the left end can't be seen. 

 

I think this is either a photo I commented on that was in an exhibition at Reading Museum last year, or one in the same series. The curator of the exhibition kindly sent me some references to his sources, which included an article on Reading goods yards from Great Western Journal Nos. 80 and 81 - several NRM photos, I think.

 

Two questions re. the cast plates:

 

1. Why where they introduced in the first place? It seems costly and not very flexible. The GWR continued with smaller cast plates on the solebar even after the large body-side cast plates had been abandoned and the painted numbers restored to the body side. Were the cast plates the result of a decision that wagons must have workplates with running numbers, and so an opportunity was intiialy taken to combine this with the bodyside lettering?

 

2. What happened to the body side cast number and tare plates when they were dismantled? I've never seen one. It would be interesting to see the colour and scrape at the paint!

 

1. But cast ownership/number plates were standard on other companies' goods wagons - usually mounted on the solebar, like the later small GW plates. This was essential information for number-takers - that unsung army of wagon-spotters reporting to the RCH so that revenue could be duly apportioned for goods consigned across company boundaries.

 

2. Surely scrap metal was recycled - back into the foundry pot. As we know, Churchward was no sentimentalist when it came to preserving souvenirs of past practice.

[81C]

I've found this website useful for paint colours.

 

http://www.stationcolours.info/index.php?p=1_5_GWR

[MikeOxon]

I've found this website useful for paint colours.

 

http://www.stationcolours.info/index.php?p=1_5_GWR

 

I note that the specifications on the website refer to the Torbay Paint company, located in Brixham.  There is a book about this company called 'Torbay Paint Company: Its Origins and History in Brixham and Dartmouth 1848-1961 (Dartmouth History Research Group Paper)', which according to the synopsis on Amazon contains 'Research on the history of the manufacture of a paint in Dartmouth and Brixham. The ochre/linseed oil paint was invested [sic - invented?] to solve the problem of rusting cast iron bridges, railways, pipeways etc. of Isambard.'

 

The website also refers to 'Ripolin' paints being used for some applications.  Apparently (from Wikipedia), Ripolin was the first commercially available enamel paint, supplied in tins.  The exact meaning of 'enamel' in this context is unclear but it usually refers to a hard, glossy-surface paint.

Edited October 31, 2017 by MikeOxon

[Compound2632]

I've found this website useful for paint colours.

 

http://www.stationcolours.info/index.php?p=1_5_GWR

 

Some interesting official documents reproduced there. So where is the Carriage & Wagon Department Painting Instructions circular? Particularly the 1903 edition with the memos: "Wagons: for red read grey; signed GJ Churchward, 1 Jan 1904" and "Cast iron numberplates: remove forthwith; signed GJ Churchward, 1 Jan 1907" pasted in?

[Mikkel]

i.e. 1902 or 1903? Online resources are vague.

 

 

I think this is either a photo I commented on that was in an exhibition at Reading Museum last year, or one in the same series. The curator of the exhibition kindly sent me some references to his sources, which included an article on Reading goods yards from Great Western Journal Nos. 80 and 81 - several NRM photos, I think.

 

 

1902 I think?

 

Yes the Reading photos are very good, especially because they show at least three different wagon liveries co-existing around 1905 (GWR left hand side, right hand side and large GW).

 

I must get myself those GWRJs.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

I note that the specifications on the website refer to the Torbay Paint company, located in Brixham.  There is a book about this company called 'Torbay Paint Company: Its Origins and History in Brixham and Dartmouth 1848-1961 (Dartmouth History Research Group Paper)', which according to the synopsis on Amazon contains 'Research on the history of the manufacture of a paint in Dartmouth and Brixham. The ochre/linseed oil paint was invested [sic - invented?] to solve the problem of rusting cast iron bridges, railways, pipeways etc. of Isambard.'

 

Interesting! Found a copy for just 4£, but the seller doesn't ship to Denmark. Ah well, further searching needed.

[Armstrong440]

On page 417 of GWR Goods Wagons (1998 edition), there is a photo of a GWR W1 Cattle Van, built in 1904 (the year of the change to 25in letters. It has the large "GW" but on the end the cast plates have been retained, and the side number is on the solebar (on a cast plate I assume, although the photo is too small to be sure).

 

Whether this one is also in red livery is an open question. The caption states that in the original print, bolt holes can be seen on the solebars for where the small "G.W.R" cast plate should have been. The wagon was built in 1904, so could have been turned out in red with cast plates, then later the same year had the large "GW" added and the plate removed. The lack of a shadow could be explained by the red livery still being new.

 

Alternatively, the wagon may have been progressing through the works during the livery change, and so was painted grey with the large GW at the last minute. But then why use the cast plates? Because they were already on order?

 

Oh boy, this is nerdy stuff 

 

There is a larger and better-exposed print of this same photo in MRJ 24 where Martin Goodall builds a selection of GWR cattle wagons from various kits and bits.  The article extends into MRJ 25, but contains no discussion on liveries.

[Compound2632]

There is a larger and better-exposed print of this same photo in MRJ 24 where Martin Goodall builds a selection of GWR cattle wagons from various kits and bits.  The article extends into MRJ 25, but contains no discussion on liveries.

 

Had a quick look at that. The holes in the solebar for mounting the G.W.R plate are visible. With this print, it's easier to believe one is looking at a vehicle painted in a dark shade but standing in bright sunlight. Also, it's clear that the letters M S L are not painted on but cut out and, presumably, screwed on.

 

Discussing the cast plate issue with a fellow club member, while returning GWR Goods Wagons to him, he suggested that the discarded plates might have been used as ballast for brake vans - apparently they were loaded up with any scrap metal that was to hand in the works.

[Armstrong440]

Had a quick look at that. The holes in the solebar for mounting the G.W.R plate are visible. With this print, it's easier to believe one is looking at a vehicle painted in a dark shade but standing in bright sunlight. Also, it's clear that the letters M S L are not painted on but cut out and, presumably, screwed on.

 

Discussing the cast plate issue with a fellow club member, while returning GWR Goods Wagons to him, he suggested that the discarded plates might have been used as ballast for brake vans - apparently they were loaded up with any scrap metal that was to hand in the works.

 

I'm wondering at how new the wagon is.  The exterior seems very clean, almost glossy, with not a trace of limewash.  The interior however looks a little pock-marked.  I believe that limewash was applied to the full height of the interior, so I would assume what we're seeing is rather knotty wood that has never been disinfected and hence a brand new wagon.  Similarly, I would assume that the holes for the GWR plate would have been drilled as a matter of routine during the course of construction, for the plate to be affixed at a later stage.  So their presence should not be taken as evidence that the plate was ever actually fitted.

[Armstrong440]

The roofline looks rather uneven though!

[Compound2632]

I'm wondering at how new the wagon is.  The exterior seems very clean, almost glossy, with not a trace of limewash.  The interior however looks a little pock-marked.  I believe that limewash was applied to the full height of the interior, so I would assume what we're seeing is rather knotty wood that has never been disinfected and hence a brand new wagon.  Similarly, I would assume that the holes for the GWR plate would have been drilled as a matter of routine during the course of construction, for the plate to be affixed at a later stage.  So their presence should not be taken as evidence that the plate was ever actually fitted.

 

It's stated to have been built in 1904. I've given the copy of GWR Goods Wagons that has been distracting me for the past week back to its owner, so I can't give chapter and verse on the Lot number but the register number 68409 is consistent with this date, so it does seem likely to be brand new, as you say.