The Brown, the Red, and the Grey

[57xx]

I'm puzzled as to why a fish truck has ended up at Drinnick Mill. 

 

I doubt it is a fish truck, the colouring is just a flight of fancy for the colourist. The location of the side door and W on the end of the "brown" wagon suggests to me it is a regular 4 plank 4 wheel open, not a 6 wheel or bogie Tadpole.

 

The "red" mineral wagon is curious, 6 planks, end door, on a steel underframe with lever brake, doesn't look like any GWR diagram I've seen and I would presume as Il Grifone has said that this was brought in from another manufacturer. Note also the black painted strapping, something pics in Atkins et al show on wagons built by Chas Roberts.

Edited August 25, 2017 by 57xx

[Northroader]

The GWR did have a series of mineral wagons which I think were on hire from BRCW. (I'm away from base at present, so haven't got access to my reference) Finished as GWR wagons, indentifiable by a "0" prefix number. I'll come back on this.

[Il Grifone]

The wagon number is  '№' 7781, where '№' is something indistinct, but it appears to be a '6' or an '8' or possibly a '3' or a '5'. The underframe seems the same tint as the background of the number, which suggests they are the same. Probably grey seeing the 25" G W. It looks like a V but looking closely it can be seen that the red tint has been slopped over part of the letter. Once tinted, the photo stayed that way.

 

My thoughts (for what they are worth!) are that the colour change would seem to be a Churchward idea. He had his way with locomotive and carriage liveries, so why not with wagons too. This would suggest a date contemporary with the abolition of the cast plates, with possibly a few trials beforehand to confuse the issue. It was probable that grey was thought to last longer than red through showing the dirt less and maybe also costing less?* I suspect wagons were repainted 'when they needed it', which would mean long intervals. I can recall seeing a van proudly bearing  'G W' around 1960, which would probably not have been repainted for twenty odd years.

 

* I don't know the relative costs of red and white lead. Soot to turn the white into grey would be plentiful at practically zero cost.

[57xx]

I was thinking 57781, but could be a 6.

[MikeOxon]

If it were 87781, then its sister is now on the Bluebell Railway! (87782)  Before restoration 87782 was a 6-plank open wagon that had been 'called up' during WW1. 

 

However, it appears from the Bluebell site that this series was originally built at Gloucester to diagram O11 in 1912 as a 5-planker with sheet rail, so this is probably another 'red herring'   

 

I tend to agree with 57xx that the first digit is more likely to be a '5'

 

edit   I notice the 'finish' is described as Dark Lead colour - which 'lead' ?

Edited August 25, 2017 by MikeOxon

[Northroader]

Back home with me books, and looking at the Drinnick siding wagon, first thoughts were it was a China clay wagon, having end doors for shipment. Atkins, Hyde, Beard and Tourret saying that the GWR had a fleet for this before WW1, equivalent to opens with an end door added, which evolved into diagram O12/13. However, they were 5plankers, this is a 6planker, also details such as a single bang spring and inside diagonal bracing don't tally with Swindon practice. Then again, it's got coal in it. Looking at the BRCW. fleet I was on about, the GWR hired quite a lot from them, starting in 1887, and the record I've got shows more up to 1904 at least, and given numbers in the range 01000 to 01724, with an enamel plate for BRCW and their number. A drawing of a sample wagon of 1904 shows wide 4planks, wooden underframe, side doors only, internal strapping, and rounded ends, and dark grey with 18" letters. It's doubtful all this fleet had the same features. Batches are shown for Kingswear, Fowey, and Par, and to me this suggests inland distribution of coal imported off coastal shipping from South Wales.

So it looks like this is a wagon from another manufacturer hired by the GWR for import coal? I agree with Il Grifone that the red felt tip pen could be just artists licence.

[Il Grifone]

I would have thought coal more likely to be imported through ports in North Cornwall and would need to be delivered everywhere on the system for domestic use at least.

 

The red wagon could of course just be what the artist was used to seeing. Non enthusiasts would be unlikely to realise that the GWR had changed the colour of their wagons (or even care).

[Northroader]

Looking at the Bristol Channel coast, we know the GWR imported coal through Bridgwater and Watchet in the East, and Hayle in the West. In the middle the Taw estuary was LSWR territory with a purpose built quay at Fremington, and I think the Camel estuary was rather limited in what it could take, certainly the Bodmin link we were on about earlier had the purpose of taking China clay from wenfotd onto the GWR for shipping.

The southern coast had better deep water, sheltered ports with GWR rail connection.

[melmerby]

 

edit   I notice the 'finish' is described as Dark Lead colour - which 'lead' ?

As I understand it "Dark Lead" should be Grey as red would be "Red Lead", or just "Red" this ties in with other known wagon colours.

 

Bachmann got caught out on this once paining a "Lead" wagon red as no doubt they were looking at it from an engineering point of view.

My dad who worked with steel equipment in heavy industry always meant red when he was talking of lead paint!

 

Keith

Edited August 26, 2017 by melmerby

[Mikkel]

My thoughts (for what they are worth!) are that the colour change would seem to be a Churchward idea. He had his way with locomotive and carriage liveries, so why not with wagons too. 

 

It does make good sense. Churchward became CME in 1902. In 1903 (sic) there is much consternation in the Railway Magazine that the GWR is experimenting with an all brown coach livery. The experiments are halted for a while and everyone breathes a sigh of relief, until 1908 when the brown livery is made standard for coaches.

 

A livery change on wagons, however, would go under the radar. Wagons just weren't all that interesting to railway observers back then. Having so far scoured the Railway Magazine from 1897 to about 1910, there is only a single reference to GWR wagon colours ("livery" is rarely used), namely the October 1904 reference already found by John Lewis and stated on gwr.org.uk: "dark red, also grey".

Edited August 26, 2017 by Mikkel

[MikeOxon]

Back home with me books, and looking at the Drinnick siding wagon, first thoughts were it was a China clay wagon, having end doors for shipment. .........

So it looks like this is a wagon from another manufacturer hired by the GWR for import coal?

 

The railway at Drinnick was part of the Cornwall Minerals Railway Company, incorporated in 1873, which took over fragments of several early rail and tramways serving the china clay industry. There's a summary of its activities in MacDermot's 'History of the GWR', vol.2.  The GWR agreed to work the line after 1877 and purchased the entire undertaking n 1896.

 

I expect much of the stock taken over by the GWR was originally purchased by the Cornwall Minerals Railway, on which I have no information - but someone on here may have

[wagonman]

I would have thought coal more likely to be imported through ports in North Cornwall and would need to be delivered everywhere on the system for domestic use at least.

 

The red wagon could of course just be what the artist was used to seeing. Non enthusiasts would be unlikely to realise that the GWR had changed the colour of their wagons (or even care).

 

 

Portreath harbour, also on the north coast, was important too: coal in and ore out, while it lasted. Built as a branch off the Hayle Railway, later part of the West Cornwall Railway.

[wagonman]

Looking at the BRCW. fleet I was on about, the GWR hired quite a lot from them, starting in 1887, and the record I've got shows more up to 1904 at least, and given numbers in the range 01000 to 01724, with an enamel plate for BRCW and their number. A drawing of a sample wagon of 1904 shows wide 4planks, wooden underframe, side doors only, internal strapping, and rounded ends, and dark grey with 18" letters. It's doubtful all this fleet had the same features. Batches are shown for Kingswear, Fowey, and Par, and to me this suggests inland distribution of coal imported off coastal shipping from South Wales.

 

 

The batches of wagons hired from Birmingham and allocated to 'Fowey' and 'Par' were clearly intended for the clay traffic and were presumably a stop-gap while the GWR pondered its own design. I presume the 'Kingswear wagons were for the gasworks traffic but I'll have to try and check to see when Renwick Wilton obtained the contract for that traffic. Most of the other wagons hired in that period were explicitly for coal traffic, including 01327 depicted in the drawing by Len Tavender.

[57xx]

Most of these were wooden underframe wagons with some built by GRC&W others by CR so most likely BRCW from about 1905 to about 1910. There was a batch of 140 from Bute wagon works numbered from 42624-763 and these had steel underframes.

 

Whilst browsing through an old GWR Journal (#23) I came across an article about loco coal wagons. There in the pic is one of these 6 plank end door wagons. According to the text it is one of the 140 supplied by Bute Works Supply Company which were delivered in 1907 and then got transferred to the Loco Department in 1923. The only problem is the number is wrong, the only thing I can think  of to account for this is the postcard is a pre-1923 picture and they were renumbered when allocated to the Dept and given diag N33. But that's only a theory.

[Edwardian]

Am I missing something, but doesn't the lettering on the "1900s" photograph of Drinnick Mill mean that it must be 1904 or later?

 

In which case we have a colourist who, perhaps knowing that GW wagons had been red, mistakenly coloured a grey wagon red?

 

I agree with Il Grifone that the "new" red paint on the NG wagons in 1892 does not necessarily imply that the red livery was new at that time.  The weight of evidence, such as it is, argues for an earlier introduction.

 

As regards Guy Rixon's query on the Y2 livery, as built (from 1889) they certainly carried the small "GWR" initials, as the photographs show this.  I would assume the large "G W" would have come in no earlier than 1904.  It is said that they went brown with ochre lettering around WW1, along with other types, like Bloaters, Beetles and Tadpoles, though I note that gwr.org doubts whether the change was carried into effect until sometime after the war (http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagonsiphon.html).  

 

But what colour were they as built?  Atkins et al say grey.  Atkins et al place the change to grey as from 1898, whereas subsequent research suggests that the change to grey might have coincided with the change to the 25" "G W" initials, in 1904.  I don't intend to re-hash this here, but the authors maintain that grey was the livery for fruits, and other specialist vehicles, e.g. Micas from at least c.1890, so this is, nevertheless, earlier than the date at which they say the general wagon fleet went grey.

 

At some stage I will build my David Geen Y2, and when I do, I'll want it to be able to represent from 1904, so, probably, in its 'as-built' livery of the 1890s. Is that grey, or red?  A repaint between 1904 and 1914 would, presumably, be grey, but would it feature the larger "G W"?  I would have thought so. 

 

I am familiar with the reference, via Slinn, on gwr.org to brake vans in grey earlier than general goods stock, but I am not aware of any reference other than Atkins et al, to the specialist vehicles (that would eventually become brown vehicles) being painted grey from c.1890.

 

If Miss P, or anyone else, can shed further light on this, I, and no doubt Guy, will be grateful!

Edited September 7, 2017 by Edwardian

[Miss Prism]

At some stage I will build my David Geen Y2, and when I do, I'll want it to be able to represent from 1904, so, probably, in its 'as-built' livery of the 1890s. Is that grey, or red?  A repaint between 1904 and 1914 would, presumably, be grey, but would it feature the larger "G W"?  I would have thought so. 

 

For 1890-1915, Atkins is unequivocal that Y2s were grey, although this contradicts the '1898' (or indeed '1904') red to grey changeover/migration for 'goods stock'. Slinn and Atkins remain as far apart about the red to grey changeover for 'goods stock' as they ever were, and us latter-day amateur dabblers remain bewildered.

 

I agree it is logical to assume any 1904-1914 Y2 grey repaint would have received white 25".

 

Post-1915, those of the Y2s taken into the passenger stock lists (some were, some weren't) would have become eligible to carry a non-goods, i.e. non-grey, livery. But eligiblity doesn't equate to actuality, and I personally doubt many or even any repaints were actually done during the war, although I have extrapolated this notion from what Slinn says. The 'eligible non-grey' livery was therefore either brown or crimson. Horse boxes, always in the passenger stock lists, albeit 'NPCCS', were in crimson with yellow 25" G W. Siphons, both bogie and 6-wheel, were always in the passenger stock lists, also as 'NPCCS', but apparently never appeared in crimson, and continued with their original brown, with 16" yellow G W. The SVR's recently restored and rather gorgeous O11 is in all-over brown (although I'm wondering about G W on the ends). Siphons seemed to be in a perpetually filthy condition.

 

In terms of what commonly ran with passenger coaches, which was I feel a factor in the pecking order of livery choice and repaint need, the Fruits seemed to be in a bit of a no-mans land territory.

 

The use of crimson for NPCCS seems to have ceased after c 1920, and brown then became the standardised NPCCS colour.

 

My Perseverance Y2 is built, but remains unpainted!

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2017 by Miss Prism

[Edwardian]

Well, that is the point, Akins et al seem certain that they were grey as built, regardless of the fact, even on their reckoning, general goods wagons were still produced in red.

 

I wish I knew why they felt able to conclude that!

 

Put another way, while subsequent research suggests that the move to grey for general goods stock may not be 1896 or 1898, but 1904, I have not seen anything that either confirms, or casts doubts on, the assertion the Fruits etc were grey from at least c.1890.

 

I would be basing my (grey) model on a single unreferenced secondary source, but there is no support of which I am aware, for the idea that these vehicles, specifically, were ever red.

 

Quite see why you haven't painted yours! 

 

I have one in brown, but that is good, if it's good, probably only from some point in the '20s!

[BG John]

Could it have been a partial change at the same time as brake vans started to be painted grey? Maybe the higher status wagons changed first, and the lower status ordinary wagons were to be changed later, but it took longer than planned. I imagine that although grey is a less attractive colour, it kept a more consistent and presentable appearance for longer than red. Perhaps red paint had been over ordered!

[Edwardian]

Could it have been a partial change at the same time as brake vans started to be painted grey? Maybe the higher status wagons changed first, and the lower status ordinary wagons were to be changed later, but it took longer than planned. I imagine that although grey is a less attractive colour, it kept a more consistent and presentable appearance for longer than red. Perhaps red paint had been over ordered!

 

That's certainly the implication of what Atkins & Co are saying; the Fruits, Micas, Tadpoles etc are a distinct category.

[Crichel Down]

I have a couple of Parkside Dundas kits for a Diagram W7 Beetle C (originally Beetle B), one of each variant.  I have always intended to complete the earlier model in early 1920s livery, and naturally assumed that it would have been reclassified as NPCS (a ‘Brown Vehicle’), repainted in the Brown livery and re-numbered in the ‘Vans’ series by the time of the First World War.

 

Not so.  Reading Atkins’ wagon ‘bible’, I discovered that this first Lot of Diagram W7 Beetles continued to be classed, numbered and painted Grey as goods wagons until 1927.  They presumably became ‘Brown Vehicles’ when the second Lot  of W7s were built, which were classed, numbered and painted as Brown Vehicles from new in 1927.

 

This is only one of the numerous livery traps waiting for the unwary.  I have painted my Y2 fruit van (also running in the early 1920s) in Brown livery, although there is a possibility that between 1912 and 1922 these vehicles might have been painted Crimson Lake like the coaches. I hedged my bets by assuming a coincidental re-paint of my model in 1922, with 16-inch “ G W ”to avoid having to decide which colour it would/might have been painted before 1922.

 

Sorry, I can’t contribute anything to the ‘red oxide’ wagon livery discussion.  My chosen period is safely beyond that period, but I sympathise with those model-makers who are frustrated by the paucity of reliable information on that topic.

[Miss Prism]

Reading Atkins’ wagon ‘bible’, I discovered that this first Lot of Diagram W7 Beetles continued to be classed, numbered and painted Grey as goods wagons until 1927.  They presumably became ‘Brown Vehicles’ when the second Lot  of W7s were built, which were classed, numbered and painted as Brown Vehicles from new in 1927.

 

Interesting, Martin. I need to mention that on the 'brown vehicles' livery page.

 

And I agree any Y2s repainted after 1920-ish would have been brown. Considering their build dates though, post-1920 might have been their first repaint, so maybe none or very few appeared in crimson anyway.

[Craigw]

Interesting, Martin. I need to mention that on the 'brown vehicles' livery page.

 

And I agree any Y2s repainted after 1920-ish would have been brown. Considering their build dates though, post-1920 might have been their first repaint, so maybe none or very few appeared in crimson anyway.

 

I just read the section Martin refers too and was amazed that I had missed it. Like many others, I had 'assumed" they were crimson and then brown. Just shows to go how wrong you can be, There is a nicely finished Lawrence W7 on Ebay that I was eying off and am glad to find that for my chosen 1923-1924 period it should be grey. Scratch that from the list.

 

Regards,

 

Craig w

[Il Grifone]

It's a good job my Parkside Beetle has been so long in gestation (assembly is still not finished after several years...). I was going to paint it crimson....

[MarkAustin]

Some years ago, I transcribed the "Company Liveries" series of articles from "Moore's Monthly Magazine"/"The Locomotive Magazine". Here is the GWR section:

 

The engines of the Great Western Railway are painted chrome green, the shades varying with the works at which the engine was constructed. Express and passenger engines built at Swindon are painted a lighter green than the goods and tank engines turned out of the same shops while engines from Wolverhampton assume quite a blue green. The striping of the engines also differ, Swindon engines having a black band of medium width a very fine yellow line on either side, but Wolverhampton engines a fine white line in place of the yellow. The framing and splashers of all engines are a dark red brown, edged round with, a narrow black border with a fine yellow line inside it. The domes and safety valve casings are bright brass, as also is the chimney top; this latter on Swindon-built engines in of a bell-top pattern whereas Wolverhampton engines have a moulded top. The buffer beams are vermillion edged round black and fine yellow line. The interior of the cabs is painted vermillion to about the height of the splashers, then green above, edged round with black and fine yellow line. Altogether the G.W. Railway engines are handsomely painted, and being kept very clean always boast of an imposing appearance. The splashers of the 3001 class of single bogie express engines are further decorated with the arms of the G.W. Railway surrounded by a garter cast in relief and maintained in true Heraldic fashion, and on either side of this the crests of London and Bristol respectively, also in relief. On other express engines the coat of arms in ``transferred ``on the driving splasher. Number plates are of brass, raised figures, with a background of black with fine yellow line round the inside.

The carriages are painted a light brown umber on the lower panels with black margins, a yellow line being run round on the edge; the upper panels are cream colour with a fine brown line drawn round inside, The lettering on the lower panels, doors, \&c., is yellow, shaded black, whilst the numbers which appear along the upper portion are in yellow, shaded with brown. The underframe is painted black. Horse-boxes, carriages, trucks, \&c., are painted a light brown umber all over, with lettering in yellow, shaded with black. A light red colour is adopted for the wagon stock with white lettering but the goods brakes are a dark grey.
 

The series ran frtom 1896 to 1898, and it is reasonable to believe that it substantially represents practice at c1896.

 

MarkAustin

[BG John]

I think that makes it pretty clear, and as the next change in wagon lettering was in 1904 doesn't leave much doubt.

 

Interesting about the two shades of green for Swindon painted locos.