Signalling for modellers who don't know much about signalling

[TheSignalEngineer]

An experienced Signalman (on the Western at any rate) would give the Driver the 'Right Away' handsignal in that situation.  (Not in the Rules of course but that was how it was usually done.)

One of my former colleagues who spent time both on the footplate and as a signalman on the WR told me of the handsignals at his box. From the signalman there was one to say pulled off right through after the train had passed the distant at caution and three from the driver to be passed on down the line - put me in the back platform for water, get me a clear road to take a run at the bank or I need the banker.

[Junctionmad]

Just wait until you try to distinguish between a distant which is a 'fixed signal' and a 'fixed' distant :-)

All distants are " fixed signals " to my knowledge .

[The Stationmaster]

One of my former colleagues who spent time both on the footplate and as a signalman on the WR told me of the handsignals at his box. From the signalman there was one to say pulled off right through after the train had passed the distant at caution and three from the driver to be passed on down the line - put me in the back platform for water, get me a clear road to take a run at the bank or I need the banker.

 

 

The best one I ever came across was at Paddington - when an engine off an arrival had backed down to the Arrival 'box it would be stopped and the Signalman would lean out of the window with a hand pointing upwards which he would move in a circular motion - that meant 'stop clear of the relevant shunt signal ready to reverse back into another platform'.  It would be followed by a clenched fist from which would emerge a number of fingers pointing upwards, usually done more than once as the total number of fingers shown was the number of the platform the engine would be going to in order to attach to empty stock hence the Driver would know which signal he needed to get in rear of ready to reverse into whichever platform.

[Pacific231G]

I'm happy to stand corrected by those with more signalling experience but in Midland Style, George Dow refers to "stop and distant arms" - since there is no physical difference between a home and a starter signal arm. But I think there is a considerable difference to the driver - if he's held at the home signal and it clears, he only knows he can draw up as far as the starter; if he's held at the starter and that clears, he knows he has a clear run through the next section. This would be where his route knowledge was all important.

 

EDIT: and that will make a difference to how we operate our model railways - if the signal clears, do we creep forward cautiously or throw the regulator well over and storm away?

Hi Stephen

I'm glad someone has put their head above the parapet with an answer to my question. I'm afraid it does back the theory that if you want an answer to a question it's better to make a statement and wait for those with superior knowledge (real or imagined) to tell you what you've got wrong than to ask the question and hope for an answer so thanks for doing so.

 

I have now dug out my rule books from the dark corners where they were cowering and the GWR from 1904 (which IS Railway Clearing House so should be common) states that "Fixed signals consist of Distant, Home, Starting, Advanced starting, Siding, Calling-on and Shunting signals,

 

The 1933  LNER and the 1961 BR rule books (both also Railway Clearing House) both say that "Fixed signals consist of distant, stop, and subsidiary signals"  before going into more detail. and indications are now Danger, Caution or Clear.

 

Curiously, the 1904 rule book makes no mention of a separate colour for caution and simply states that "Red is a signal of Danger and Green of All Right" and then refers to distant signals being at "danger" or "All right"  which implies that distants were then red for danger and drivers had to recognise which were which by local knowledge.

 

Even more interesting (at least to me)  it says that "On some Companies' lines, a purple or white light is used as the danger signal for controlling sidings and bay lines. 

 

This is interesting because purple (or violet) is used as an absolute stop signal in France for sidings or other service lines leading on to running lines and these normally display a whie light when clear indicating that a driver may proceed but is not clear to run at line speed.

 

I think there have been international agreements about the general  colour indicatons of signals and these have sometimes changed but I'd always thought that the violet absolute stop from sidings (indicated by a violet square and/or a violet light) was peculiar to France, 

 

At one time, White was Clear and Green was Caution. That changed in Britain before the end of the nineteenth century  but not in France until 1930 (with the adoption of the  Code Verlant)

Edited October 3, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

All distants are " fixed signals " to my knowledge .

All distants are fixed signals and fixed distants especially so.

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

 

Curiously, the 1904 rule book makes no mention of a separate colour for caution and simply states that "Red is a signal of Danger and Green of All Right" and then refers to distant signals being at "danger" or "All right"  which implies that distants were then red for danger and drivers had to recognise which were which by local knowledge.

 

 

Yellow was not introduced for Distant signals until the 1920s. I think it may have been mandated in the 1925 revision of the Board of Trade requirements. Until then the only distinction was the fishtail end to the arm. 

[Pacific231G]

Yellow was not introduced for Distant signals until the 1920s. I think it may have been mandated in the 1925 revision of the Board of Trade requirements. Until then the only distinction was the fishtail end to the arm. 

Interesting; thanks for this Charles (?)

Do you happen to know when All Right was changed to Clear ?

 

Different stop signals having different meanings in terms of how a driver could proceed when they were cleared would obviously require good route knowledge.

 

I'm sure this must have applied in other European countries as well but one of the strategic aims of the first French signalling code and the subsequent Verlant code was to enable drivers to operate safely on unfamiliar routes- even different companies' lines- with very limited route knowledge particularly at times of "natonal emergency". (There were a lot of snarl ups on the railways during the Franco-Prussian war)

 

There were/are more different types of signal but they were clearly distinguished by shape and the disposition of lights so a driver shouldn't have required local route knowledge to know what they meant to him. Signalling also tended to be more restrictive, especially on speed, than permissive. This probably made life easier for drivers but it seems even more difficult than in Britain to figure out where signals should be placed. Despite many attempts and generally fewer signals involved overall  I've yet to see a satisfactory exposition of this that doesn't end up just relying on quoting specific examples but instead explains the underlying principles properly.   

Edited October 3, 2017 by Pacific231G

[The Stationmaster]

Yellow was not introduced for Distant signals until the 1920s. I think it may have been mandated in the 1925 revision of the Board of Trade requirements. Until then the only distinction was the fishtail end to the arm. 

 

Or, in some cases, Coligny-Welch 'fishtail' shaped light next to the signal's lampcase.  Yellow lights, and arms, for distant signals seem to have first appeared on the Metropolitan District Railway in 1907 and was adopted by the Metroolitan Railway in the following year.  Yellow however also used for the caution light in 3 position semaphore signals with the first appearing on the GWR in 1914 (just one signal, later replaced by a 3 aspect colour light signal head on the same post) and taken up by the Great Central at Keadby in 1916 plus various subsequent installations elsewhere. 

 

Widespread adoption of a yellow arm and light for distant signals was, as 'Signal Engineer' has said incorporated into the requirements in 1925 and was basically a consequence of the work of the IRSE committee which sat between 1922 and 1924 to consider signal aspects and came up with the use of yellow as a the caution indication for colour light signals (although it was already in use in 3 position semaphores on several Railways).   Changeover to yellow for distant signals took sometimes and it seems likely that some Railways had started on the change prior to 1925 but it definitely wasn't complete until the late 1920s and some examples probably even lasted later.

 

The 1904, or thereabouts, Rule Books don't seem to particularly differentiate Company differences from standard RCH Rules whereas the 1930s issues clearly distinguish inter-Company differences.

 

The simple way of remembering what a fixed signal is is very simple - it is a signal which is fixed on one place and can thus be any type of signal.  The term 'fixed' is basically to differentiate a fixed signal from those signal which are not fixed in one place such as handsignals (including those given by flag or lamp) or signals given by means of a whistle - many years ago I had a rather useful little diagram which separated the different categories of signal and what each category included although I'm not sure if I can find it.  

 

Incidentally green of course is still used for caution /reduce speed in shunting handsignals with white being used for 'alright'.

[micknich2003]

The last recorded replacement of a "Red Distant" was on the Southern Railway in 1945.

[RailWest]

The last recorded replacement of a "Red Distant" was on the Southern Railway in 1945.

Where was that please?

[Colin_McLeod]

Where was that please?

To the rear of the home.

 

Hat and coat on

Edited October 3, 2017 by Colin_McLeod

[micknich2003]

I don't recall the location, but with a bit of digging, I can find it.

[micknich2003]

I don't recall the location, but with a bit of digging, I can find it.

I have now found my ref, The Signalling Record Newsletter No33 May 1992, page 66 "Yellow Lights in Distant Signals", Mike Christensen: Seven & Wye Joint Line between Traveller's Rest Junction and Cinderford Junction changed to Yellow 25/27 April 1945. Note I was WRONG to quote the Southern Railway.

Yours, Mick.

[TheSignalEngineer]

 The NERly also had plenty of ground level Disc Sigals. A typical example shown at Beverley in attached picture.

 BEVERLEY c1926.jpg

Difficult to tell as it is monochrome, but the Distant arm on the running signal appears to be painted in the old style, and the Home arm looks as if it shows a white light for "Off"

[micknich2003]

Difficult to tell as it is monochrome, but the Distant arm on the running signal appears to be painted in the old style, and the Home arm looks as if it shows a white light for "Off"

Yes, the Distant is still painted Red, the "White" Spec is a trick of the light, the signal was almost certainly new c1911 when the area was resignalled. Mick.

[Flying Pig]

Amusingly many years ago in the 'Railway Modeller' there used to be a series of cartoons which portrayed 'ideas for layouts' which often involved what could best be described as 'animated scenes',  One of them had a signalman on a sort of sliding arrangement who could shoot forwards to give a handsignal from the signalbox window.

 

The odd thing is that in the subsequent 50+ years no manufacturer has copied the idea  (but someone is supposedly copying the swinging water crane arm of course).

Just such a signalman appeared on a Scottish branch terminus layout also featured in RM. As I recall, the mechanism also slid open the signal box window.

[RailWest]

I have now found my ref, The Signalling Record Newsletter No33 May 1992, page 66 "Yellow Lights in Distant Signals", Mike Christensen: Seven & Wye Joint Line between Traveller's Rest Junction and Cinderford Junction changed to Yellow 25/27 April 1945. Note I was WRONG to quote the Southern Railway.

Yours, Mick.

Ahh, thanks ... that would accord with my recollection that the last one was somewhere in the Forest of Dean :-)

[Pacific231G]

Hi Stephen

I'm glad someone has put their head above the parapet with an answer to my question. I'm afraid it does back the theory that if you want an answer to a question it's better to make a statement and wait for those with superior knowledge (real or imagined) to tell you what you've got wrong than to ask the question and hope for an answer so thanks for doing so.

 

I have now dug out my rule books from the dark corners where they were cowering and the GWR from 1904 (which IS Railway Clearing House so should be common) states that "Fixed signals consist of Distant, Home, Starting, Advanced starting, Siding, Calling-on and Shunting signals,

 

The 1933  LNER and the 1961 BR rule books (both also Railway Clearing House) both say that "Fixed signals consist of distant, stop, and subsidiary signals"  before going into more detail. and indications are now Danger, Caution or Clear.

 

Curiously, the 1904 rule book makes no mention of a separate colour for caution and simply states that "Red is a signal of Danger and Green of All Right" and then refers to distant signals being at "danger" or "All right"  which implies that distants were then red for danger and drivers had to recognise which were which by local knowledge.

 

Even more interesting (at least to me)  it says that "On some Companies' lines, a purple or white light is used as the danger signal for controlling sidings and bay lines. 

 

This is interesting because purple (or violet) is used as an absolute stop signal in France for sidings or other service lines leading on to running lines and these normally display a whie light when clear indicating that a driver may proceed but is not clear to run at line speed.

 

I think there have been international agreements about the general  colour indicatons of signals and these have sometimes changed but I'd always thought that the violet absolute stop from sidings (indicated by a violet square and/or a violet light) was peculiar to France, 

 

At one time, White was Clear and Green was Caution. That changed in Britain before the end of the nineteenth century  but not in France until 1930 (with the adoption of the  Code Verlant)

Addendum:

I've just found a Railtrack/RSG rulebook from 1996 and it too identifies signals as Stop signals (signals which can display a red aspect) , Distant signals (signals which cannot display a red aspect, then for Colour Light:-  position light signals,  and for Semaphore:-  Subsidiary signals (calling-on or shunt ahead) and Shunting signals.

For Semaphores it doesn't go into outer homes, homes, starters or advanced starters, just Stop signals so in theory a driver relying on the rule book alone wouldn't be aware of such distinctions.

This leads me to another question which is, what rule book do heritage lines use? If they have say an authentic GWR set up would that be out of kilter with the current national rule book?   

[RailWest]

I would suggest that in most case a heritage railway will use a rule book compiled for its own specific purposes. It may well be based upon a BR or 'Big Four' example, but omitting anything not of relevance to it and including anything specific to the peculiarities of its own operations. No point in lots of stuff about (say) >100MPH running or TCB operation if you don't have any of that! 

[Compound2632]

Hi Stephen

I'm glad someone has put their head above the parapet with an answer to my question. I'm afraid it does back the theory that if you want an answer to a question it's better to make a statement and wait for those with superior knowledge (real or imagined) to tell you what you've got wrong than to ask the question and hope for an answer so thanks for doing so.

 

I have now dug out my rule books from the dark corners where they were cowering and the GWR from 1904 (which IS Railway Clearing House so should be common) states that "Fixed signals consist of Distant, Home, Starting, Advanced starting, Siding, Calling-on and Shunting signals,

 

The 1933  LNER and the 1961 BR rule books (both also Railway Clearing House) both say that "Fixed signals consist of distant, stop, and subsidiary signals"  before going into more detail. and indications are now Danger, Caution or Clear.

 

Curiously, the 1904 rule book makes no mention of a separate colour for caution and simply states that "Red is a signal of Danger and Green of All Right" and then refers to distant signals being at "danger" or "All right"  which implies that distants were then red for danger and drivers had to recognise which were which by local knowledge.

 

Even more interesting (at least to me)  it says that "On some Companies' lines, a purple or white light is used as the danger signal for controlling sidings and bay lines. 

 

This is interesting because purple (or violet) is used as an absolute stop signal in France for sidings or other service lines leading on to running lines and these normally display a whie light when clear indicating that a driver may proceed but is not clear to run at line speed.

 

I think there have been international agreements about the general  colour indicatons of signals and these have sometimes changed but I'd always thought that the violet absolute stop from sidings (indicated by a violet square and/or a violet light) was peculiar to France, 

 

At one time, White was Clear and Green was Caution. That changed in Britain before the end of the nineteenth century  but not in France until 1930 (with the adoption of the  Code Verlant)

 

Could it be that French practice follows that of their early British signalling contractors?

[Pacific231G]

I would suggest that in most case a heritage railway will use a rule book compiled for its own specific purposes. It may well be based upon a BR or 'Big Four' example, but omitting anything not of relevance to it and including anything specific to the peculiarities of its own operations. No point in lots of stuff about (say) >100MPH running or TCB operation if you don't have any of that! 

That would make sense Chris but do you know if that's still the case? Clearly a GWR or even BR rule book couldn't simply be adopted wholesale as there are modern requirements (e.g. PTS Certificates?) and a great deal of H&S practice that simply didn't exist then. I was really wondering though how this would affect a heritage railway's signalling installation if that included elements no longer to be found in Network Rail's own remaining mechanical installations.     

[The Stationmaster]

Addendum:

I've just found a Railtrack/RSG rulebook from 1996 and it too identifies signals as Stop signals (signals which can display a red aspect) , Distant signals (signals which cannot display a red aspect, then for Colour Light:-  position light signals,  and for Semaphore:-  Subsidiary signals (calling-on or shunt ahead) and Shunting signals.

For Semaphores it doesn't go into outer homes, homes, starters or advanced starters, just Stop signals so in theory a driver relying on the rule book alone wouldn't be aware of such distinctions.

This leads me to another question which is, what rule book do heritage lines use? If they have say an authentic GWR set up would that be out of kilter with the current national rule book?   

 

Some 'heritage/leisure sector' lines use Rule Books which I have written

 

In reality there is little choice when it comes to Rule Books which under ROGS form part of a Railway's SMS (Safety Management System) and therefore have to pay heed to current day legislation and matters which might require a risk assessment to be carried out.  Many of the basics are no different from the old days but most of the personal safety stuff is very different and any sort of degraded operating conditions (e.g permissive working or even giving assistance to a failed train) have to be considered very much in the context of individual railways and relevant risk potential.   As do things like Rules relating to shunting (where the old Rule Books can be regarded as a  bit on the laissez-faire side when it comes to personal safety - for example one Railway suffered a  staff fatality partially as a  consequence of not properly considering shunting in its widest context; oddly what was recommended as an 'improvement to incorporate in its Rules' was something I had been applying as standard practice for a long time previously in the shunting Rules which I had written.

 

The term 'Stop Signal' has been in use for long time, although it did not appear in at least one first General Appendix reissue (c.1920/21) following the Great War.  But it was used in 'the Requirements' as reissued c.1925 and was used in the 1930s reissue of the RCH/large Companies' Rule Books so it has been in common widespread use on Britain's railways for at least 80 years.  In many respects the actual name given to a particular running line stop signal is irrelevant beyond identifying its purpose as a proceed indication invariably means the line is clear to the next stop signal in advance (or the stop blocks in a terminal platform) - Drivers clearly need to know which signals are Section Signals in the wider context of the Rules & Regulations and they also need to know - albeit to a lesser extent nowadays - which stop signals are the (outermost) Home Signal, again in the wider context of R&R.  Beyond that, and knowing the position & sighting of the signals and nature of the line approaching each of them, the Driver's principal concern with a semaphore stop signals is how it is cleared for their train if at danger as they approach such a signal when it is at danger. 

[Pacific231G]

Could it be that French practice follows that of their early British signalling contractors?

It definitely grew out of early British practice. The very first signals used on French railways were GWR crossbar and disc signals on I believe the St. Germain line in Paris but that was probably before specialised signalling contractors even existed. At that time both vane and semaphore type signals were being used in Britain but while Britain eventually went almost entirely down the semaphore route France continued to use vanes (boards of different shapes rotating on a vertical axis to present to the driver when closed but edge on when open) The most basic early French signal was the Disque Rouge - red disk- a deferred stop signal that requires a driver to immediately slow down to a speed where they can stop on sight before proceeding to a stopping point unless signalled to stop before that. In the early absence of other signals this, when closed,  protected a station, yard or siding where shunting was taking place  without the need for a set of distant and stop signals but I believe the same signal or its equivalent was also used by early British railways. 

 

I think in most countries that developed signalling from the start of the railway age,  practices reflected local needs and conditions though countries developing railways rather later often adopted the system of a colonial power or of the country from where the contractors or promoters came even if it wasn't ideally suited to local conditions.

 

Britain had busy railways often with more trains than stations so developed a system where signalling was carried out as a dedicated function from permanently manned boxes with signalling that gave drivers specific permission to proceed.

 

In less densely populated countries like France it was normal on all but the busiest lines for the station to be the block post often with long sections between them. At minor stations the stationmaster (chef de gare) generally carried out the signalling role. Block signals could be somewhat separate from the absolute stop signals used to prevent conflicts and the signals used to restrict speed (for example over diverging points) For  example, a single Sémaphore  (a specific type of signal in French practice) would be closed if the block was occupied but might be passed for a shunting move or, when it was in the middle of the station as many were, by a train coming to a stop in the station. On the least busy lines there might be no mechanical signaling at all and the chefs du gare would handle the block instruments (which might just be a telegraph or telephone) and give drivers specific permission to continue.  With so much railway but relatively few trains there was a need for economy in signalling and staffing and the British level of signalling wth a series of signals at every station and dedicated signalmen just to handle them would have been prohibitively expensive.  

 

In very much less densely populated countries, like much of N. America, there might be no signalling as such to actually control trains but regulation by dispatchers with drivers proceeding according to train orders and being ordered to stop (usually by a type of semaphore signal)  at telegraph equipped train-order stations to receive any updates. In France and many other countries, many secondary light railways also used a timetable and amending order system and many freight only lines are operated by a purely train order based system known as V.U.T.R. (Voie Unique a Trafic Restreint)  

 

Whatever the system there were always strict rules to ensure that it was properly applied but sometimes in any system those rules can break down. In France where some lightly traficked single track lines were still using a purely telephone block system, there were a couple of disastrous head on crashes so a system of computer assistance (using dedicated single use computers not Windows!) was adopted where the computer is effectively a recording block instrument but it's still the chef du gare (and nobody else) who gives permisison for a train to proceed into  a single track section.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Pacific231G

[The Stationmaster]

That would make sense Chris but do you know if that's still the case? Clearly a GWR or even BR rule book couldn't simply be adopted wholesale as there are modern requirements (e.g. PTS Certificates?) and a great deal of H&S practice that simply didn't exist then. I was really wondering though how this would affect a heritage railway's signalling installation if that included elements no longer to be found in Network Rail's own remaining mechanical installations.     

Signalling installation is slightly different.  Firstly as things now stand any new installation has to be assessed and agreed by 'a competent person' although testing may well require the services of 'a qualified person'  and beyond that any Instructions etc also have to be prepared by someone with the necessary experience and understanding who in many cases should have been sufficiently competent to provide the initial operational specification and to ensure that any plans etc met that specification.

 

Effectively you can, as with a Rule Book, write your own Signalling Regulations but sensibly you would draw on past 'big railway' Regulations as the basis for the simple reason that you (should) know they work (or don't work!).  I think it's fair to generalise that many heritage lines (in particular) tend to over-signal while some tend to be over cautious or think they're being extra cautious when in fact they aren't.  Many lines incidentally use professional or retired professional signal engineering staff who are happy to wok as volunteers.  Years back, and well before ROGS I planned the layout of a frame and did the locking chart but a professional (BR back then) locking engineer checked my chart and did the electrical control table to produce the controls I'd asked for.

 

Currently a friend has been involved in putting together a signalbox on a particular line and the locking was planned by an ex-BR locking fitter and has been separately professionally tested - all the back-up paperwork for design, operating spec and any risk assessments was also prepared and is retained as per ROGs - no need for an Inspecting officer nowadays but some do like to be kept informed of what is happening and can comment. 

[Pacific231G]

Some 'heritage/leisure sector' lines use Rule Books which I have written

 

........Effectively you can, as with a Rule Book, write your own Signalling Regulations but sensibly you would draw on past 'big railway' Regulations as the basis for the simple reason that you (should) know they work (or don't work!).  I think it's fair to generalise that many heritage lines (in particular) tend to over-signal while some tend to be over cautious or think they're being extra cautious when in fact they aren't.

Thanks Mike for both answers. I was hoping there'd be someone here with that level of real expertise and experience and I thought it might be you.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Pacific231G