Signalling for modellers who don't know much about signalling

[PaulRhB]

Regrettably the term 'beyond' is ambiguous as in normal English usage it relates to the direction in which you are looking and not necessarily the direction in which trains are travelling. Thus when it first appeared in the Rule Book there was a reference to a train standing 'beyond the Home Signal'. Beyond the Home Signal then depends entirely on where you are standing when you look at the Home Signal. In rear of the Home Signal (or anything else) is absolutely explicit irrespective of where you happen to be standing. And that is one reason why it and in advance were used and there's at least one death (of a Shunter) on record where somebody used the term 'in front' instead of in advance.

 

 

Oh there's lots of things changing, imagine my confusion when told :

 

"The fault was caused by the light engine on the signal. . . What it's run over it?

No it failed. . . So how's it on the signal then? What are you calling a light engine?

The lamp on the signal! . . . Well why didn't you call it a lamp then!????"

 

Why do we need to invent new names for something that has a perfectly adequate name? Call it the lamp unit don't call it the same as another common railway term!

I've got used to the new terms for either side of the signal ,although I was totally happy with the old ones, the new ones are always referencing the front of the signal is how I remember it.

Under and Overbridges also befuddle a lot of people.

 

I was talking to an RAIB inspector today and we had a long and interesting discussion on interpretation of certain rules.

Edited September 7, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Colin_McLeod]

 I don't talk about 'Far away Signals' when I mean 'Distant Signals' which was another proposal from the Plain English mob to change the wording in the Rule Book.

 

 

 

Now I am confused!.

 

Is this signal "small" or "far away" ??

 

[Reorte]

Simples - just imagine you are standing on a railway line looking in the direction in which trains normally run.  Everything you see is in advance of you, that which is behind you is in rear of you (and you even have something you could tap to remind you where (your) rear is.  On a double line railway where one line is used in each direction then obviously as trains head in those different directions you again simply imagine yourself looking in the direction of travel on that particular line - always 'in advance' is, literally, in the direction in which you are looking and in rear is - as ever - behind you, just like your own rear.  

 

Regrettably the term 'beyond' is anmbiguous as in normal English usage it relates to the direction in which you are looking and not necessarily the direction in which trains are travelling.  Thus when it first appeared in the Rule Book there was a reference to a train standing 'beyond the Home Signal'.  Beyond the Home Signal then depends entirely on where you are standing when you look at the Home Signal.  In rear of the Home Signal (or anything else) is absolutely explicit irrespective of where you happen to be standing.  And that is one reason why it and in advance were used and there's at least one death (of a Shunter) on record where somebody used the term 'in front' instead of in advance.

From my outsider point of view "in rear" of a signal sounds like the direction I'd expect the back of the signal to face, i.e. where the train is after it's passed the signal, which appears to be the opposite of what you're saying. "In rear" and "in advance" certainly aren't any more or less unambiguous in normal English usage. Both "in rear" and "beyond" require additional knowledge of the way the terminology is used to be unambiguous. It strikes me as more of an issue of mistakes being avoided due to everyone using the same terminology (which is always good for reducing confusion), than fundamentally clearer language.

[Clive Mortimore]

A signal is always going to be facing the opposite direction to the train.

 

I have never been confused by "in the rear" being where the train has come from and "in advance" being where it is going.

 

A signal has a front that faces the train and a back that does not.

[phil-b259]

Oh there's lots of things changing, imagine my confusion when told :

 

"The fault was caused by the light engine on the signal. . . What it's run over it?

No it failed. . . So how's it on the signal then? What are you calling a light engine?

The lamp on the signal! . . . Well why didn't you call it a lamp then!????"

 

Why do we need to invent new names for something that has a perfectly adequate name? Call it the lamp unit don't call it the same as another common railway term!

 

 

But technically a Light Engine is not a lamp and the term 'signal lamp' is not really appropriate. An electric lamp simply contains a filament and a paraffin lamp simply contains a burner. A 'Light engine' contains not only LEDs, but also assorted resistors, capacitors and rectifiers to turn the 12V input into something the small surface mount LEDs can actually use.

 

They are also not very reliable and do have a tendency to fail with respect to current draw (they need to mimic a standard filament lamp in this regard) causing the interlocking to think the signal is blank even though its not.

[Clive Mortimore]

Many railway customs came from the military. If you go forward you advance. If you retreat you move to the rear.

Someone has commented on this thread being ex railway professional experts chatting with each other, as an ex soldier I would like to bring in my professional expertise. 

 

Retreat, that is what the enemy does. The correct terminology used when disengaging action with the enemy is tactical withdrawal.

[Reorte]

A signal is always going to be facing the opposite direction to the train.

 

I have never been confused by "in the rear" being where the train has come from and "in advance" being where it is going.

 

A signal has a front that faces the train and a back that does not.

That's why it's confusing to people like me. The signal has a front that faces an oncoming train, so a train approaching that signal is in the rear of it? Not a problem if the terminology is fully drilled in to those who need to know it, and everyone is using the same terminology, but not completely obvious either.

[Ray H]

One poster did suggest such a thing; I replied highlighting that part of the point of my post had been to take into account the space constraints many encounter, which compromise the realism of the layout in the first place. I thought of producing diagrams comparing the model track plan and signalling with the (fictional) prototype, illustrating the compromises I'd made, but was unconvinced that would help pull the thread in a more 'average model railway'-friendly direction.

 

Stephen

 

Responses to requests for help with signalling layouts are invariably responded to subject to sufficient information being provided to enable each response to be as accurate as possible. In some cases the person requesting the information supplies all the relevant details with their initial request whilst others do so as one or more requested addendum. The person proposing to respond to the request has a valid reason for seeking additional information which can sometimes be asking for the information to be provided in a different format perhaps on the basis that a "picture" paints a 1000 words.

 

I read your initial post and am sorry to say I couldn't grasp what you were describing, possibly because I'm not familiar with the geographical area. I suspect others may have had a similar view and that is why they asked for the diagram to be presented differently. Please remember that continuous track layouts are a model phenomenon not encountered in real life and therefore are not something that can be matched to the prototype.

 

I'd guess that few continuous run layouts can be matched to other similar layouts, partly because each owner is liable to view their layout in a different way.

 

Some people may find it strange to be asked to indicate the type of traction likely to be run on the layout but I'm sure those asking for that piece of the jigsaw have a reason, which may be as simple as trying to understand whether to signal to allow time for water to be taken without unduly reducing the throughput of traffic.

 

Please don't assume your request is being ignored if you fail to supply all the information requested in any specified format. That request is simply being held in abeyance until all the information is at hand to enable an accurate response to be given.

[beast66606]

That's why it's confusing to people like me. The signal has a front that faces an oncoming train, so a train approaching that signal is in the rear of it? Not a problem if the terminology is fully drilled in to those who need to know it, and everyone is using the same terminology, but not completely obvious either.

 

Bit like terminology used in all industries then.

 

The terms are in rear and in advance - if you don't like them then perhaps it's time to move along, they aren't going to change simply because we go round in circles for days.

[Reorte]

Bit like terminology used in all industries then.

 

The terms are in rear and in advance - if you don't like them then perhaps it's time to move along, they aren't going to change simply because we go round in circles for days.

Huh? All I was pointing out was that they're not actually clear, unambiguous terms. No need to start acting insulted or getting personal ("if you don't like them") in what was just a general discussion.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Reorte

[37Oban]

Bit like terminology used in all industries then.

 

The terms are in rear and in advance - if you don't like them then perhaps it's time to move along, they aren't going to change simply because we go round in circles for days.

I'm not a signalling engineer, just a moderately skilled and knowledgeable modeller.  I read up on signalling matters, both online and in books, and yes, at first glance it looks confusing but with a bit of time it makes sense!  Photographs of real locations can help, as can visiting actual locations and knowing the traffic flows, but the basics are there to provide the safe operation of the railway and as such can be applied, and as knowledge increases then more finesse can be brought to the model!

 

I don't find the terms unambiguous at all.  They make sense and wouldn't have been used by generation of signallers if they didn't!  Trying to change them now would only confuse the issue further, as people are finding out.  If you think this is confusing then don't even try quantum physics!  Now wave particle duality, to name but one small part can really make your head spin!  

 

Roja

[Chimer]

Bit like terminology used in all industries then.

 

The terms are in rear and in advance - if you don't like them then perhaps it's time to move along, they aren't going to change simply because we go round in circles for days.

 

Bit harsh?  All industries use jargon, but there aren't many that use as jargon common words with the reverse of their common meaning.  And this thread provides evidence that a significant proportion of "outsiders" think the railway does exactly that in these cases.  We don't expect a change, just an understanding that for us there is an ambiguity.  So when you are being helpful to us outsiders, which you are time and time again, avoiding the use of jargon that we may misunderstand may mean that we don't have to ask for further clarification.  Which is why I just asked anyone answering my original question please not to use these terms.  And inadvertently started World War III !

[Compound2632]

It's always worth while learning the technical vocabulary as it will lead to a clearer understanding of the subject. But it shouldn't be assumed and those who don't understand it should not be dismissed. A while back, in a discussion about facing point locking bars, I was confused by 'rear' and 'advance' but The Stationmaster kindly provided a clear explanation, for which I was grateful. It's no worse than port and starboard! And as for a 'sheet' being a rope and not a sail...

Edited September 8, 2017 by Compound2632

[The Stationmaster]

That's why it's confusing to people like me. The signal has a front that faces an oncoming train, so a train approaching that signal is in the rear of it? Not a problem if the terminology is fully drilled in to those who need to know it, and everyone is using the same terminology, but not completely obvious either.

 

As I said - it needs to be explained.  It's just like any other terminology in an area outside your normal experience but it's a very easy one to remember but  you can easily relate it to the way in which it relates to any fixed point location or a train on the railway in relation to the normal direction of travel.

 

(And I have come across plenty of folk working on the railway who didn't understand it - but fortunately their jobs didn't require them to understand it)

 

Now I am confused!.

 

Is this signal "small" or "far away" ??

 

Distant shunt signal.jpg

Looks a bit like Lostwithiel in the dairy sidings on the Up side, east of the level crossing (or rather was' as it was taken away some years ago).  And of course it was actually a stop signal but that would take us into shunting signals and that lies some way off  .

[The Stationmaster]

I tried doing that but it didn't work - the professionals continued to reminisce amongst themselves...

 

Perhaps nobody could find anything wrong with it?   And in fact I don't think there is very much wrong with it - the big problem - which is unavoidable because of the nature of your layout and accessing an off-scne area in a restricted space - is that facing crossover but you've signalled it fairly sensibly so that's that one out of the way.  There is also a peculiar looking involvement of what appear to be miniature arms on the signal in rear of the overbridge at Mansfield west and then a rather strange way of signalling the short siding - maybe I'm confusing what you intend.

 

 

But that apart it's ok and it is an intelligent way of tackling the inherent problems of trying to signal a space-compressed roundy layout where in reality no more than one or two signalboxes could - in scale term - control the whole lot.  And signalling compressed roundys, or try to signal them, is a difficult area because you can hit all sorts of scenic problems by creating a forest of signals which then look operationally unrealistic as well but in my view you've minimised those potential problems.

[big jim]

It's always worth while learning the technical vocabulary as it will lead to a clearer understanding of the subject. But it shouldn't be assumed and those who don't understood it should not be dismissed. A while back, in a discussion about facing point locking bars, I was confused by 'rear' and 'advance' but The Stationmaster kindly provided a clear explanation, for which I was grateful. It's no worse than port and starboard! And as for a 'sheet' being a rope and not a sail...

I'm a railway professional and drive past signals day in, day out and know what each one means and how it relates to me and I still get confused between 'in advance' and 'in rear'!

 

As long as I stop 'my side' of the red and not 'the signallers side' then all is good!

Edited September 8, 2017 by big jim

[Junctionmad]

It's easy to see where the advance/rear confusion comes from. A signal has a front and a back. Rear is a synonym of back or behind yet in signalling terms in rear means in front of. Similarly in advance means behind in signalling terms yet in advance normally means in front of, e.g. A light engine was run in advance (before, in front) of the royal train.

Again , it's best to apply these terms from the perspective of a signalling diagram or a kind of birds eye view of a station

A train standing at a stop signal, is to the rear of that signal ( because it you think about it, a signal applies to the track at the physical back of the signal ) , the track so controlled by that signal is in advance of the signal.

[Junctionmad]

I would like to say, to get back to the OPs point , that in my view, it's entirely possible to produce a simple explanation of how to site semaphores on a model railway and how to avoid any obvious howlers in relation to the operation of those signals and the trains they control.

 

Yes such description will be by necessity generic and reasonably time period independent but the basics of semaphore signalling from the 1900s on, are very similar and reasonably consistent. Modellers looking for specific regional situations will of course need further research.

 

One only needs passing references to absolute block and various rules associated with it ( or single lines etc ) , most modellers will not be interested in block working , blocking back inside or outside the home, or shunting into forward sections etc. These concepts all presume you are in fact operating bells and blocks etc. They are meaningless and best ignored in the context of the average model railway layout.

 

These simplifications along with stacks of other compromises tend to known as " modellers license "

Edited September 8, 2017 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

Bit harsh?  All industries use jargon, but there aren't many that use as jargon common words with the reverse of their common meaning.  And this thread provides evidence that a significant proportion of "outsiders" think the railway does exactly that in these cases.  We don't expect a change, just an understanding that for us there is an ambiguity.  So when you are being helpful to us outsiders, which you are time and time again, avoiding the use of jargon that we may misunderstand may mean that we don't have to ask for further clarification.  Which is why I just asked anyone answering my original question please not to use these terms.  And inadvertently started World War III !

With respect, there is in reality no confusion, in the terms " in advance " and to the "rear " etc, as the terminology is entirely clear when applied correctly in its signalling context. All " industries " have jargon that exists to convey concepts simply and clearly , within those with the requisite knowledge. That's its purpose.

 

The solution is not to ask it be used , the solution is to inform oneselve of the context of its use and hence understand what the jargon means.

[runs as required]

I would like to say, to get back to the OPs point , that in my view, it's entirely possible to produce a simple explanation of how to site semaphores on a model railway and how to avoid any obvious howlers ... These simplifications along with stacks of other compromises tend to known as " modellers license "

I can agree with this - and it should be possible for some public spirited ex signaller to cut and paste a digest from this thread into a safe refuge siding somewhere on RMweb

 

As to in advance and in rear, I do like Stationmaster's bum slap standing in the 4 foot facing the direction of travel

But I think the confusion arise for modellers looking down, flying benignly like cherubs above their layouts, rather than visualising themselves down in the cab looking out for a signal.

dh

Edited September 8, 2017 by runs as required

[Chimer]

With respect, there is in reality no confusion, in the terms " in advance " and to the "rear " etc, as the terminology is entirely clear when applied correctly in its signalling context. All " industries " have jargon that exists to convey concepts simply and clearly , within those with the requisite knowledge. That's its purpose.

 

The solution is not to ask it be used , the solution is to inform oneselve of the context of its use and hence understand what the jargon means.

 

Oh I give up.  I, being initially without the requisite knowledge, have admitted I was confused, a dozen other contributors to this thread have admitted they were confused, but there is in reality no confusion.  Because you say so.

[43110andyb]

Bit like terminology used in all industries then.

 

The terms are in rear and in advance - if you don't like them then perhaps it's time to move along, they aren't going to change simply because we go round in circles for days.

The railway has its own language and many a new starter coming from maybe another industry sometime really struggled to Comprehend it. The railway signalling alphabet normally blows the brain the most- here are a few to start with. W- points operating equipment, D- clear (Green); decoding; relay contact- de energised, H- caution (yellow). Some letters such as D have multiple meanings depending on the context they are used, great fun trying to teach newcomers!

You just have to think back to when someone taught myself aged 16 and how I managed to take it in.

I'm sure there are many industries/professions that would be the same for me now if I tried to change careers!

[phil-b259]

Oh I give up.  I, being initially without the requisite knowledge, have admitted I was confused, a dozen other contributors to this thread have admitted they were confused, but there is in reality no confusion.  Because you say so.

 

What exactly are you confused about? Is it just the terms 'In rear of / 'In advance of'? if so then thats easily rectified - the next time you are out for a drive then start applying the terms on the road - for example as you approch a junction tell yourself you are 'In rear of it' and when you go past it then you are 'in advance of it.

 

Alternatively use dates, if you are going to go shopping on Wednesday nest week then you are 'in rear' of it at present. Once you have got home afterwards you are now in advance of it.

 

When boarding a train have a look along the platform - if you can see a signal (with its coloured arm of colour lights visible) then you are in rear of it. Once the train has departed and you have passed said signal you are now in advance of it.

 

Simples.

[runs as required]

Oh I give up.  I, being initially without the requisite knowledge, have admitted I was confused, a dozen other contributors to this thread have admitted they were confused, but there is in reality no confusion.  Because you say so.

I really am sorry you should end the evening so angry about this thread...

... I hope you feel better in the morning.

dh

 

PS

You ought to be warned about dipping into the DCC threads - you will find them even more unhelpful to innocents straying into a minefield hoping to hear simple answers to what appear to be straightforward questions.

[Junctionmad]

Oh I give up. I, being initially without the requisite knowledge, have admitted I was confused, a dozen other contributors to this thread have admitted they were confused, but there is in reality no confusion. Because you say so.

It's not because I say so, it's because all jargon exists within a context, but within that context, it has meaning and clarify for those that have invested the time to understand the concepts. Asking people not to use the terms and perhaps to substitute terms that may at first glance , seem simple, yet equally just as likely to lead to confusion, does not make sense.

 

Again , " in advance " , the direction from a point forward, in the direction of a train on that line , " in the rear " In the opposite direction to " advance " , what's the complication

 

I.e. The " berth " track is " in the rear " of the home signal , while the clearance point is in advance of it , hence since a train moves normally towards the " front " side of a signal , in advance is beyond it, ( the signal)in the direction of travel and in the rear is behind it.

 

 

As an aside you can see that using common terms like " front " , " beyond" can be misleading , for example the front of a signal and the front of a train typically face each other !!! , hence using " plain " English words like " front " can be confusing , where's the jargon terms, within the context , are entirely clear

 

Context is everything

Edited September 9, 2017 by Junctionmad